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  1. #1

    [BM] Looking for some advice, opinions!

    Hello! Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been playing Brewmaster since the start of MoP and I absolutely love it. It's such an active playstyle, very rewarding tank. I just have a few questions, and looking for a few opinions and what I could change/improve on!

    First a question about weapons, I'm currently using two Gara'kal, one raid finder, one normal. I run the Nightmare of Shek'zeer every week on raid finder in hopes of getting a claw with no luck just yet. I have Gao-Rei and access to my Sha gem. However, I much prefer dual wielding and would give it up for the Claw should I get it. Is it worth replacing my current weapons with Gao-Rei for now? With or without the gem? I really would prefer not spending 10k gold for another gem later. I'm just looking for opinions.

    Second question, since the change to Ascension, I've been using that talent and I feel much more comfortable with it. But I was wondering if there's a certain amount of haste where I should stop gemming/reforging haste and perhaps go for crit? I apologize if this was said else where, I haven't found a very specific answer for it!

    I can't post links yet, but to find me on the armory. Tianshang, on Thorium Brotherhood.

    I also have a link to the last log recorded before holiday break. It was our first attempt at Will.

    worldoflogs(dot)com/reports/6oz8u89itec80mkn/

  2. #2
    Going from your 489/476 Garakals to a 496 2H is an upgrade regardless if its gemmed or not (they are itemized w/o the gem in mind). The upgrade is quite big to still stay with DW (the issue of going DW or 2H normally becomes a problem when they are very similar Ilvl, but here, it isnt). If you were to get a 483 Claw of shekzeer, the avg level of your weps would be 486, compared to gao rei's 496, it is still quite a significant downgrade. Now, if you are talking about the 483 Gao-rei, then its a no brainer, stay DW, even the dual garakal.

    So yea, gemming a 496 gao rei, and enchanting dancing steel would be the best way to go. Though youre gonna hate the EB gen at first

    It is different for everybody, and different for each fight. On aoe fights, ascension is king, everything else PS is better chi generation, but worse EB generation and dps. See what your guild/you struggle the most on, and gem/talent accordingly. If you will go towards Ascension, 4200 is the minimum a lot of people set, when they are trying it out for the first time, go above 7k though, and youre going to get overwhelmed. If you are confident, you can lower it to about 2k, but your energy bar will feel like a snail.

    Your shuffle uptime seems to be pretty solid, so lowering your haste seems like a safe bet.

  3. #3
    EB gen is really bad, when i was doing some heros to get vp quickly, i went from 2H to DW and the difference is huuugeee. DW helps you generate it quite faster, while 2H gives you more dps and slower/less reliable EB gen. If your group is struggling at dps i would take gao rei for a little upgrade. anyways i dont think its worth it, im so used that i wouldnt ever touch a 2H afain with my monk

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    It is different for everybody, and different for each fight. On aoe fights, ascension is king, everything else PS is better chi generation, but worse EB generation and dps. See what your guild/you struggle the most on, and gem/talent accordingly. If you will go towards Ascension, 4200 is the minimum a lot of people set, when they are trying it out for the first time, go above 7k though, and youre going to get overwhelmed. If you are confident, you can lower it to about 2k, but your energy bar will feel like a snail.
    PS and Asc have nothing to do with EB generation, and is a barely noticeable difference in dps between the two. And with 7k haste with Asc you would have more energy than you would know what do to with.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 06:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bkw View Post
    EB gen is really bad, when i was doing some heros to get vp quickly, i went from 2H to DW and the difference is huuugeee. DW helps you generate it quite faster, while 2H gives you more dps and slower/less reliable EB gen. If your group is struggling at dps i would take gao rei for a little upgrade. anyways i dont think its worth it, im so used that i wouldnt ever touch a 2H afain with my monk
    The EB generation is exactly the same. The consistency may feel different but over any timeframe X you will get pretty much exactly the same charges of EB with DW vs 2H. Also DW is higher dps, not 2H, but the difference is fairly small and mostly dependent on hit/exp.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-28 at 11:27 AM.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    The only difference with EB is that when DW'ing you get fast streams of single stacks and when using a 2H you get slower-coming chunks of stacks. In the end, they'll average out the same, and it just boils down to which style you feel more comfortable with.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    PS and Asc have nothing to do with EB generation, and is a barely noticeable difference in dps between the two. And with 7k haste with Asc you would have more energy than you would know what do to with.
    Erm, i dno why the reiteration, but i believe i did say "go above 7k haste, and you'll get overwhelmed". And yes PS and Asc do have something to do with EB generation, if youre going from PS to Asc in any decent gear, you are going to lower your haste, into either crit or hit/exp. If you lower into crit, guess what, more EB stacks...

    Also "barely a difference" is still a difference, not like anything that was said was incorrect. DW does indeed give you better DPS

  7. #7
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    And yes PS and Asc do have something to do with EB generation, if youre going from PS to Asc in any decent gear, you are going to lower your haste, into either crit or hit/exp. If you lower into crit, guess what, more EB stacks...

    Also "barely a difference" is still a difference, not like anything that was said was incorrect. DW does indeed give you better DPS
    You don't have to lower your haste. Most people do b/c they were stacking a ton, but it is not required to lower your haste with Asc. You don't take Asc to drop haste; you take it to have faster, more consistent resources. Saying Asc gives more EB is a false, misleading statement. You don't compare 2 things by changing a 2nd variable.

    You weren't saying DW gives better dps, you were saying Asc gives better dps. The dps difference, assuming no other stat changes, is the difference between a blackout kick and a tiger palm. This is such a miniscule change as to be pointless to argue that it is a dps increase.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-28 at 03:10 PM.

  8. #8
    If you are not going to lower your haste when you get Asc, then there is no point in getting Asc (other than 5 chi). If you don't pool into any crit/hit/exp, you are deliberately giving up Chi generation from power strikes, in which case it is most logical to go PS (since you are only thinking of Chi gen at that point). If however you do go into Asc, you will lower your crit, or to simplify, Lumenatra should lower his crit. I did what he asked help in, optimization. I looked at his gear, and his logs, he has more than enough haste, so he can lower it into crit, which is also one of his questions.

    The statement was not misleading, as it was a direct response to one individual, who in this case, it was applicable to.

  9. #9
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    If you are not going to lower your haste when you get Asc, then there is no point in getting Asc (other than 5 chi).
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    You don't take Asc to drop haste; you take it to have faster, more consistent resources.
    If all you care about is chi, the PS is always going to be your choice. Asc is a QoL talent. Once you get enough chi to be comfortable any chi beyond that is basically wasted.

    You can drop haste with PS if you want more crit. Saying Asc gives more EB is false.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-28 at 03:15 PM.

  10. #10
    Glad we agree

  11. #11
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    I just find it funny that you seem to be for chi in one post, and against it in others. Asc gives less chi than PS until 9k haste. If all you are caring about is chi why would you take Asc and drop haste.

  12. #12
    I don't see myself contradicting myself on this thread, feel free to quote stuff so i can disprove it. I bring up the counterargument to show how it affects the real argument.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    And yes PS and Asc do have something to do with EB generation, if youre going from PS to Asc in any decent gear, you are going to lower your haste, into either crit or hit/exp. If you lower into crit, guess what, more EB stacks...
    Here you are implying that everyone who takes Asc drops haste, meaning chi is not that important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    If you don't pool into any crit/hit/exp, you are deliberately giving up Chi generation from power strikes, in which case it is most logical to go PS (since you are only thinking of Chi gen at that point)
    Here you are implying that chi is important.


    Until you have 9k haste, Asc will always be less chi than PS. You wouldn't want that much chi anyways. There is no real benefit to take Asc other than QoL since any argument about dropping haste for crit can be made for PS just as well.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    If all you care about is chi, the PS is always going to be your choice. Asc is a QoL talent. Once you get enough chi to be comfortable any chi beyond that is basically wasted.
    One benefit I noticed with Ascension and 7k+ haste (didn't get around to forging/gemming more away yet) was use of the EH < 35% health. Had some rough moments tanking the Empress adds where my health was constantly bouncing low and pretty sure I used EH a min of 4x in a row which of course still left me with a health pile of Chi to spend after I stabilized. Pretty sure I used it on H Gara'jal when I was tanking and got focus fired by a bunch of adds at the same time.

    I ran with 8k haste + Ascension for a night due to upgrades not not bothering to reforge/gem yet and trust me you aren't going to energy cap if your using all your GCD's. Picking up Empress with 3-5 Chi and 50%+ energy is kinda nice, I would PB the second I hit Moderate stagger and throw out Chi Waves after fields would go off and during the burn phase. Then I'd have a really healthy Shuffle buff going in to picking up the adds which is always really hectic (at least for me).

    I'm not saying to run with that much haste but your not going to be wasting resources if played right it just means more frequent PB's and L30 talent use. I'd rather have more EB stacks though so going to retool back towards crit over the weekend.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  15. #15
    Hehe, taking a snip of an entire paragraph, classy ^^

    It's taken out of context, but I'll restate it here, for your peace of mind..

    The first statement, was defending the accusation of Asc not having an effect on Crit, the rest of that posts shows how this is not a broad statement, but OP specific. (The OP wants and has Asc, he wants help, so i gave him the options)

    The second statement, whilst taken out of its contextual paragraph, is a clause supporting the counterargument. I didn't imply Chi was more important, i simply refuted to your argument that IF you are after Chi gen only, getting Asc is useless.

    See the difference, the first is to defend the OP (who will stay Asc) whilst the second is directed at your "correction".

    Also, editing your posts after they have been posted and discussed, and quoting them back, afterwards with the changes made is quite funny to me as well

    You can argue all you like, my initial post was catered to the OP specifically, you are creating problems thinking it was a broad statement, but w/e floats your boat

  16. #16
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Hehe, taking a snip of an entire paragraph, classy ^^

    It's taken out of context, but I'll restate it here, for your peace of mind..

    The first statement, was defending the accusation of Asc not having an effect on Crit, the rest of that posts shows how this is not a broad statement, but OP specific. (The OP wants and has Asc, he wants help, so i gave him the options)

    The second statement, whilst taken out of its contextual paragraph, is a clause supporting the counterargument. I didn't imply Chi was more important, i simply refuted to your argument that IF you are after Chi gen only, getting Asc is useless.

    See the difference, the first is to defend the OP (who will stay Asc) whilst the second is directed at your "correction".

    Also, editing your posts after they have been posted and discussed, and quoting them back, afterwards with the changes made is quite funny to me as well

    You can argue all you like, my initial post was catered to the OP specifically, you are creating problems thinking it was a broad statement, but w/e floats your boat
    Your first post I quoted in it's entirety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Erm, i dno why the reiteration, but i believe i did say "go above 7k haste, and you'll get overwhelmed". And yes PS and Asc do have something to do with EB generation, if youre going from PS to Asc in any decent gear, you are going to lower your haste, into either crit or hit/exp. If you lower into crit, guess what, more EB stacks...

    Also "barely a difference" is still a difference, not like anything that was said was incorrect. DW does indeed give you better DPS
    If you notice the first and last sentences don't really have anything to do with the point I was making, nor do they reinforce the statements I quoted. They also do not say or imply anything about the OP.

    Your second post I quoted in it's entirety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    If you are not going to lower your haste when you get Asc, then there is no point in getting Asc (other than 5 chi). If you don't pool into any crit/hit/exp, you are deliberately giving up Chi generation from power strikes, in which case it is most logical to go PS (since you are only thinking of Chi gen at that point). If however you do go into Asc, you will lower your crit, or to simplify, Lumenatra should lower his crit. I did what he asked help in, optimization. I looked at his gear, and his logs, he has more than enough haste, so he can lower it into crit, which is also one of his questions.

    The statement was not misleading, as it was a direct response to one individual, who in this case, it was applicable to.
    My statement of
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    If all you care about is chi, the PS is always going to be your choice. Asc is a QoL talent. Once you get enough chi to be comfortable any chi beyond that is basically wasted.

    You can drop haste with PS if you want more crit. Saying Asc gives more EB is false.
    Is accurate since the point you attempted to make is again false since
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    There is no real benefit to take Asc other than QoL since any argument about dropping haste for crit can be made for PS just as well.
    There is exactly one post that I edited after you posted the next, and the only correction was a wording correction. Since you didn't quote it it doesn't matter what I say the exact change was. Every other post I edited was done so before you had actually posted, so could not have been discussed. Suffice to say the edits were misspellings and wording changes as well.

  17. #17
    Funny, i recall your "edit" was the addition of a sentence or two, maybe i just don't know the definition of "wording", my bad.

    I dont know what "first" and "last" sentences you are talking about, is it from my post (because the first is stating that you reiterated what i said, whilst the last, is saying more crit gives more EB stacks), if you are mentioning your own post, then I don't see where you are going..?

    My second post, and the quote you linked right after, are basically saying the same thing.. The only difference, is mine is showing a counterargument (to show both sides, and also, to defend against your "correction") to the clause i made in the first post in the thread.

    Its interesting since, i remember you were the pioneer saying that dropping haste while in Asc for crit was a good thing, supported by many other BrMs' its easier with the Asc energy regen to drop haste than it is to do with PS. No one is saying you can't drop crit whilst going for PS, but no one does it, and if they want to go more into crit, they will take Ascension.

    If you are going to get into the Maths of it, no one is going to refute that PS is still king over Asc, however experience talks, and we'll just be at the argument you had with Gynshen in the Sticky.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Funny, i recall your "edit" was the addition of a sentence or two, maybe i just don't know the definition of "wording", my bad.

    I dont know what "first" and "last" sentences you are talking about, is it from my post (because the first is stating that you reiterated what i said, whilst the last, is saying more crit gives more EB stacks), if you are mentioning your own post, then I don't see where you are going..?

    My second post, and the quote you linked right after, are basically saying the same thing.. The only difference, is mine is showing a counterargument (to show both sides, and also, to defend against your "correction") to the clause i made in the first post in the thread.

    Its interesting since, i remember you were the pioneer saying that dropping haste while in Asc for crit was a good thing, supported by many other BrMs' its easier with the Asc energy regen to drop haste than it is to do with PS. No one is saying you can't drop crit whilst going for PS, but no one does it, and if they want to go more into crit, they will take Ascension.

    If you are going to get into the Maths of it, no one is going to refute that PS is still king over Asc, however experience talks, and we'll just be at the argument you had with Gynshen in the Sticky.
    Too bad you didn't quote it and all you have is hearsay.

    You do know what 'sentences' are don't you? They are the things separated by periods. The first 'sentence' in your post had nothing to do with the point I was making, neither did your last 'sentence'. Neither did either of those 'sentences' refer at all to the OP.

    I was a fan of dropping haste before 5.1, even with PS. I'm still a fan of dropping haste regardless of what talent you take. Asc didn't change the way I geared.

    People who had PS, took Asc, dropped haste, and claimed it was to gain crit have no idea what they are doing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 12:32 PM ----------

    Gynshon stopped posting, prob b/c he was smacked down by Mad and had nothing to add except 'I'm right you're wrong b/c I'm H15/16'

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 12:51 PM ----------

    Seeing as how you have been proven wrong on every major point you've made so far, yet still keep attempting to get me on minor details, I'm left with the impression that you just like arguing and being in the spotlight. This is only reinforced by the long argument you had with Mad in the sticky that was basically about something that will never happen in the normal course of playing a BrM correctly. Once every 73 minutes only if you are holding EB for 20 seconds is an event that for all intents and purposes will never happen. Yet you went on and on defending Gynshon about it.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-28 at 05:35 PM.

  19. #19
    Hehe yes, well I'm not trying to prove anyone other than you wrong, so both you and I know that you changed your quote to fit the later posted argument. My hearsay only applies to me and you, who are the only people having the argument. I'm content knowing you know you changed it, quite funny too ^^

    You do know what a paragraph is correct? It is a set of sentences illustrating a notion, taking one sentence out of an entire paragraph and molding its subtext to cater to your own argument is quite frankly, desperate.

    People who took Asc to gain crit by lowering haste so they Energy regen stays somewhat similar, quite frankly did know what they were doing, and enjoyed it, so they stayed with it.

    I doubt anything Madgod says had anything to do with Gynshon's posting frequency, if you haven't noticed, it is the time of year where people celebrate with their family, or go on vacation. He also wasn't smacked down my Madgod, because from a quick glace at the 2 pages where that topic persisted, more people agreed with Gynshon than they did with you, that is excluding myself.

    Seeing as how you've tried to pick at the minor details in my posts, indicates to the fact that you are the one who likes arguing, as for me, I just don't like it when someone attacks my posts, that have nothing to do with what they seem to think is a "correction". As i have mentioned a few times, my initial post was catered to the OP, and you nitpicking at the details and assuming they are meant for the general BrM public, gave you enough reason to start the argument. I would say "I'm left with the impression that you just like arguing and being in the spotlight" but then again, this is nothing new to me from you, you enjoy arguing, and have no etiquette in it since about 2 months ago, so i forego that same etiquette when i address myself to you.

    The "long argument" i had with Madgod, was justified and it still holds true, just because you say it doesn't, or Madgod says it doesn't doesn't exclude the fact that there are people (who even posted on that thread) said that it did.

    The EB occurring every 73mins dillemma, was more than anything an example, but here you are again nitpicking at details, i believe in that series of posts i had, i emphasized the importance of taking everything with a pinch of salt. The fact that it evolved into a discussion about when EB is useful, and when it can bite you in the ass, is something you seem to have left out in your rebuttal.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Hehe yes, well I'm not trying to prove anyone other than you wrong, so both you and I know that you changed your quote to fit the later posted argument. My hearsay only applies to me and you, who are the only people having the argument. I'm content knowing you know you changed it, quite funny too ^^
    I'd love for you to explain how if I edited the post at 10:10 and you didn't ask me to prove my counter argument until 10:23 that I changed it to fit your post.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 01:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    People who took Asc to gain crit by lowering haste so they Energy regen stays somewhat similar, quite frankly did know what they were doing, and enjoyed it, so they stayed with it.
    People who took Asc to gain crit by lowering haste so their energy regen stayed the same also don't know what they are doing. Either that or they want exactly 3 less chi per min for no apparent reason.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-28 at 06:48 PM.

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