Could Lei Shen be comparable in strength and story to the Lich King?

[huth]

The Lich King had an ability to instantly kill us called Fury of Frostmourne.

The ability would do 1 million damage.

Stat wise, the Thunder KIng has an ability that does..3 million..

Do you want to argue game mechanics or lore? Of course Lei Shen has more health and damage in-game. Players now have about ten times as much health as in ICC, hitting them for ICC-values would be silly. With the right CDs, you might actually survive Fury now. But that's purely game mechanics and has nothing to do with lore.

[SL1200]

To me the most fascinating thing has happened in warcraft is the story of the lich king. So no, this new thrown into the lore thunder king isnt on the same level.

[Deleted]

The Lich King had an ability to instantly kill us called Fury of Frostmourne.

The ability would do 1 million damage.

Stat wise, the Thunder KIng has an ability that does..3 million..

None of them can even compare to Bloodlord Mandokir, who has the ability to do 17+ million damage in one hit.

[Silver-Fox]

I think lore wise Lei Shen, the Thunder King, might be comparable to the Lich King for the Pandaren. A cruel, powerful tyrant returned from death to conquer his ancient empire. Much in the same vain we saw the Lich King as a universal threat to the way of life.

[Deleted]

If you could explain your reasoning. :x

Because WotLK was the best expansion and Pandaland will never compare. Also, bring back Illidan!

I think both can be evenly matched in strength and story. The Mogu have a lot of ways to negate the LK's plague and undead (they fight mostly with reanimated statues) but are also shown as being arrogant, useless and overall weak in battle (the Saurok ended up killing a lot of them after they revolted, their entire empire fell apart because they couldn't manage without their slave races)

A fight between the two would be fairly balanced too.

[Deleted]

They can make even more powerful creatures, but no one will be more epic than the Lich King. Not even Sargeras or his super-hyper-powerful creator of all unbreakable wow gods.

[Mawnix]

Do you want to argue game mechanics or lore? Of course Lei Shen has more health and damage in-game. Players now have about ten times as much health as in ICC, hitting them for ICC-values would be silly. With the right CDs, you might actually survive Fury now. But that's purely game mechanics and has nothing to do with lore.

The entire reason I stated that was because the person said that the Lich King had an ability that instantly killed us.

I wasn't doing this to state some brittle, weak opinion :P.

[wariofan1]

It's going to take 10 or 25 brave soldiers without an old fart to take down Lei Shen.

How many times do people need to tell me this? I already admitted I made the mistake on page 2. I love it when people try to be smartasses but it totally counters back on them.

Woah.

How was the ending of Wrath ridiculous?

How does "THere must always be a Lich King" not make sense?

If the head of the army, the guy who had the leash on all of the Scourge is gone, they'll rage and destroy everything cuz aside from restraint, which is instilled by the Lich King, all they know is to destroy.

Just sayin'.

Respect however for the Yu Yu Hakusho signature and avatar.

The ending of Wrath was ridiculous because we spent the whole expansion trying to kill The Lich King, but ultimately we just ended up where we started. Also, the fact that The Lich King was actually holding The Scourge back bothers me, The Lich King is the reason that Azeroth isn't all undead, in that manner he was actually our ally. I just felt like I wasted a whole expansion doing nothing.

I think both can be evenly matched in strength and story. The Mogu have a lot of ways to negate the LK's plague and undead (they fight mostly with reanimated statues) but are also shown as being arrogant, useless and overall weak in battle (the Saurok ended up killing a lot of them after they revolted, their entire empire fell apart because they couldn't manage without their slave races)

A fight between the two would be fairly balanced too.

The Mogu definitely aren't weak in battle, at least not as weak as a bunch of ghouls being sent in to die. As an army the Mogu have the upper hand, while The Scourge comes from corpses the Mogu can reanimate stone, in that manner they have more of an endless supply of minions. Liches could probably counter the Mogu pretty good though, freezing them and then crushing them.

I agree, if we count armies in it would probably be evenly matched, but I'm still pretty sure that Lei Shen could crush LK.

[Mawnix]

None of them can even compare to Bloodlord Mandokir, who has the ability to do 17+ million damage in one hit.

Oh my God I forgot about that insane attack.

[TheWindWalker]

Woah.

How was the ending of Wrath ridiculous?

How does "THere must always be a Lich King" not make sense?

If the head of the army, the guy who had the leash on all of the Scourge is gone, they'll rage and destroy everything cuz aside from restraint, which is instilled by the Lich King, all they know is to destroy.

Dude. Seriously. Read the posts you are responding to. I answered your question with explicit detail in the one you're quoting.

[Mawnix]

Dude. Seriously. Read the posts you are responding to. I answered your question with explicit detail in the one you're quoting.

I'm sorry. I'm getting confused with the amount of stuff I'm responding to. And it was like 1 in the morning when I responded.

I'm really sorry. I'm sounding like a fool. x_X

[Jawless Jones]

The ending of Wrath was ridiculous because we spent the whole expansion trying to kill The Lich King, but ultimately we just ended up where we started. Also, the fact that The Lich King was actually holding The Scourge back bothers me, The Lich King is the reason that Azeroth isn't all undead, in that manner he was actually our ally. I just felt like I wasted a whole expansion doing nothing.

The Mogu definitely aren't weak in battle, at least not as weak as a bunch of ghouls being sent in to die. As an army the Mogu have the upper hand, while The Scourge comes from corpses the Mogu can reanimate stone, in that manner they have more of an endless supply of minions. Liches could probably counter the Mogu pretty good though, freezing them and then crushing them.

I agree, if we count armies in it would probably be evenly matched, but I'm still pretty sure that Lei Shen could crush LK.

Lich king had the power to instantly kill people via snuffing out their life, he has immense psionic powers (lifting people up by their throats, telepathic communication, i could go on and on here), can freeze people solid, he can negate magic like lesser DKs can, and in order to kill him blizzard had to come up with the silly reason of "he let us lol"

Lei Shen is huge like the rest of his race, so he has great physical strength, he can wield lightning (which can be negated via null-magic zones or simple laws of energy if those are even canon in WoW)

Armies? The Lich king has got a army so vast it literally could swarm over Azeroth and kill everything... nothing short of re-origination could stop something like that

Lei Shen has construct creators, which can be destroyed if found, and if blood elves from the requliary can find them im sure Liches can find them

also most sentient mogu constructs (meaning the non-terricotta ones, ie the ones casting spells and hating everyone else) have souls, which we know are taken from mogu to be bound in stone once their body fails them or simply from birth, which could be consumed to either empower whoever consumes it, or make some sort of mogu banshee to serve the scourge

dont forget that the Lich King grows more powerful with every soul that is claimed by the scourge (http://www.wowpedia.org/Lich_King)

i really dont see how the Lich King could lose to Lei Shen 1v1 or army vs army

[Totle]

The ending of Wrath was ridiculous because we spent the whole expansion trying to kill The Lich King, but ultimately we just ended up where we started. Also, the fact that The Lich King was actually holding The Scourge back bothers me, The Lich King is the reason that Azeroth isn't all undead, in that manner he was actually our ally. I just felt like I wasted a whole expansion doing nothing.

You're missing key elements of the lore.

The Lich King had a plan - he wanted to use us in his army. However, we weren't strong enough and who wants weak soldiers, so he let us do what we wanted until we were worthy of joining him, and that's when ICC took place. The fight against the LK was a test to make sure that we were sufficiently capable. And we were - hence why he auto-killed us.

Also, it wasn't the Lich King who was holding the Scourge back, it was the small part of Arthas that was still within him that was stopping him from going balls to the wall.

[Keoren]

How was the ending of Wrath ridiculous?

How does "THere must always be a Lich King" not make sense?

Many parts of it are extremely inconsistent with a lot of other information we have and even without that, assuming the element of surprise, the rampaging mindless Scourge together with the "There must always be a Lich King" ends up just feeling like a lackluster solution that was pulled out of nowhere. It's not any better that the actual lore characters who had a reason to interact with the Lich King did nothing in the actual raid, leaving quite a bad taste in at least my mouth.

[wariofan1]

Lich king had the power to instantly kill people via snuffing out their life, he has immense psionic powers (lifting people up by their throats, telepathic communication, i could go on and on here), can freeze people solid, he can negate magic like lesser DKs can, and in order to kill him blizzard had to come up with the silly reason of "he let us lol"

Lei Shen is huge like the rest of his race, so he has great physical strength, he can wield lightning (which can be negated via null-magic zones or simple laws of energy if those are even canon in WoW)

Armies? The Lich king has got a army so vast it literally could swarm over Azeroth and kill everything... nothing short of re-origination could stop something like that

Lei Shen has construct creators, which can be destroyed if found, and if blood elves from the requliary can find them im sure Liches can find them

also most sentient mogu constructs (meaning the non-terricotta ones, ie the ones casting spells and hating everyone else) have souls, which we know are taken from mogu to be bound in stone once their body fails them or simply from birth, which could be consumed to either empower whoever consumes it, or make some sort of mogu banshee to serve the scourge

dont forget that the Lich King grows more powerful with every soul that is claimed by the scourge (http://www.wowpedia.org/Lich_King)

i really dont see how the Lich King could lose to Lei Shen 1v1 or army vs army

In order to snuff out his victims' life he had to kill them first, the only reason he snapped us dead on the floor was because we simply were 25 adventurers, Tirion didn't fall dead for example, he couldn't defeat Tirion at Light's Hope either, and even though it was on holy ground it does go to show that he wasn't invincible. Even on his own ground he was nearly choked to death by the Forsaken's poisons, and he was also stopped by mere rocks falling on his head. Even though he was powerful he was also shown to be defeatable throughout the whole expansion, which made him feel unthreatening tbh. The Lich King's powers are pretty much solely based on where he is, if he is in Icecrown he is stronger, if he isn't he is weaker. If the Lich King were to assault the Mogu, the Mogu would win, if the Mogu assaulted Icecrown Citadel, well, they could also possibly win, but that's mostly because of the Citadel's bad design for warfare once you're inside. Also, just as well that the Scourge can obliterate the construct creators, the Mogu can find and kill the Scourge's necromancers, stopping their endless supply of soldiers.

Anyways, not counting in the army, I think its hard to say whether Lei Shen or Lich King would win in a 1v1 until we've seen Lei Shen in action, but as it currently stands I can rather see someone who enslaved a whole continent through fear than an arrogant fool win. Which frankly was the Lich King's biggest flaw, he was too arrogant, which was why he kept on getting his ass kicked in WotLK, and ultimately why he was defeated.

You're missing key elements of the lore.

The Lich King had a plan - he wanted to use us in his army. However, we weren't strong enough and who wants weak soldiers, so he let us do what we wanted until we were worthy of joining him, and that's when ICC took place. The fight against the LK was a test to make sure that we were sufficiently capable. And we were - hence why he auto-killed us.

Also, it wasn't the Lich King who was holding the Scourge back, it was the small part of Arthas that was still within him that was stopping him from going balls to the wall.

I know I know, I'm not missing the key elements. The Lich King's plan was arrogant and fell apart just as quickly as it was revealed, I simply felt that he was a complete idiot. There's a line between arrogant and plain stupid. He sacrificed an army that already could have razed Azeroth for 25 strong guys and Tirion. The whole Arthas deal didn't really work for me either as Arthas was shown to be arrogant and weak even before his soul was stolen, Stratholme is the living example of that, he had no problem sacrifing his own men to reach his goal, further shown when he blamed his hired mercenaries and left his army to literally rot in Northrend. Arthas was never a good guy, and that's why it didn't work for me, and his last moment of regret was facepalm worthy, I really just wanted to kick him in the dooker and let him die.

[Wælcyrie]

In order to snuff out his victims' life he had to kill them first, the only reason he snapped us dead on the floor was because we simply were 25 adventurers, Tirion didn't fall dead for example, he couldn't defeat Tirion at Light's Hope either, and even though it was on holy ground it does go to show that he wasn't invincible. Even on his own ground he was nearly choked to death by the Forsaken's poisons, and he was also stopped by mere rocks falling on his head. Even though he was powerful he was also shown to be defeatable throughout the whole expansion, which made him feel unthreatening tbh. The Lich King's powers are pretty much solely based on where he is, if he is in Icecrown he is stronger, if he isn't he is weaker. If the Lich King were to assault the Mogu, the Mogu would win, if the Mogu assaulted Icecrown Citadel, well, they could also possibly win, but that's mostly because of the Citadel's bad design for warfare once you're inside. Also, just as well that the Scourge can obliterate the construct creators, the Mogu can find and kill the Scourge's necromancers, stopping their endless supply of soldiers.

Anyways, not counting in the army, I think its hard to say whether Lei Shen or Lich King would win in a 1v1 until we've seen Lei Shen in action, but as it currently stands I can rather see someone who enslaved a whole continent through fear than an arrogant fool win. Which frankly was the Lich King's biggest flaw, he was too arrogant, which was why he kept on getting his ass kicked in WotLK, and ultimately why he was defeated.



I know I know, I'm not missing the key elements. The Lich King's plan was arrogant and fell apart just as quickly as it was revealed, I simply felt that he was a complete idiot. There's a line between arrogant and plain stupid. He sacrificed an army that already could have razed Azeroth for 25 strong guys and Tirion. The whole Arthas deal didn't really work for me either as Arthas was shown to be arrogant and weak even before his soul was stolen, Stratholme is the living example of that, he had no problem sacrifing his own men to reach his goal, further shown when he blamed his hired mercenaries and left his army to literally rot in Northrend. Arthas was never a good guy, and that's why it didn't work for me, and his last moment of regret was facepalm worthy, I really just wanted to kick him in the dooker and let him die.

That's a stupid point about Tirion, the players are stronger than HIM.
I'm pretty sure at some point Tirion mentioned that.


He froze Tirion because he wanted him to watch as he destroyed us and the world before finally killing him, Tirion would of been nothing, it was the LK's plan which ruined him, his overconfidence.

He could of instantly killed Tirion but he wanted him alive.

[Candy Cough]

"and its going to take the same 10 to 25 brave heroes to take down the Thunder King......"

Lets be fair here, its difference

Lich king was insanely popular and had to please the fans, not in like Swtor where the main villain of the Expansion dies in a quest. They had to make him epic and the fight epic because it was so many people that liked him, they had to make him look badass else people would just unsubscribe (Yes people are like that)

The lei shen was just introduced out of nowhere and in the most hated expansion lore wise Pandaria. No one likes panda lore (I do) and he just didnt have the fanbase to be epic. There are plenty of sources in the game that portrays him as incredibly strong. One is that, without powers he went and beat the shit out of Ra den afterwards he tore his heart out. Etc.

[KrazyK923]

The lei shen was just introduced out of nowhere and in the most hated expansion lore wise Pandaria. No one likes panda lore (I do) and he just didnt have the fanbase to be epic

wat?

Actually quite a lot of people liked MoP lore.

Also Lei Shen was talked about in the leveling process. You did a fairly extensive quest chain trying to beat the Zandalari to his corpse. And when he gets away at the end, it was clear he was coming back.

Also its a bit disingenuous to say he didn't have any powers. He was clearly strong even without the heart of Ra-den. He was a master in the ways of warfare and combat, and also had a legion of troops at his command when he stormed the Thundering Mountain.

Ra-den wasn't some god that was impossibly beaten somehow. He is on par with Thorim or Loken. While powerful, they certainly were not invincible.

[Deleted]

I think this is the problem with gauging lore characters power by our own at the time of killing , granted if you wanna go by hots murkie can kill the lich king :P

[Mirishka]

No one likes panda lore (I do) and he just didnt have the fanbase to be epic. There are plenty of sources in the game that portrays him as incredibly strong. One is that, without powers he went and beat the shit out of Ra den afterwards he tore his heart out. Etc.

I love MoP from a story point of view. If it wasn't for 14+ months of Siege, it'd be either my favorite or my 2nd favorite expansion.

Speaking for everyone is bad, mkay?