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  1. #21
    More than a little bit off-topic but, if Wrath was the "Horde and Alliance finally stop fighting each other and focus on the Big Bad" expansion, why does the Gunship battle even happen? For that matter: When the Lich King was finally going to be stopped, why does the Gunship Battle even happen?
    Enjoyed Draenor questing. If you ignore the end of Nagrand, it's almost as good as 5.0.

  2. #22
    This is one reason why I like ICC.

    Many of those bosses have some backstory behind them, some even a great backstory.
    And even those without a backstory fullfill a role that fits into the lore (e.g. Putricide).

    Tirion, Bolvar, Airship battle (Muradin), Deathbringer Saurfang, Blood Prince Council. Lana'Thel, Sindragosa and of course the Lich King himself had at least a good implementation in lore, if not a major one.

    To me, ICC was a kind of "WoW All Stars".

  3. #23
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    More than a little bit off-topic but, if Wrath was the "Horde and Alliance finally stop fighting each other and focus on the Big Bad" expansion, why does the Gunship battle even happen? For that matter: When the Lich King was finally going to be stopped, why does the Gunship Battle even happen?
    Vengeance. Muradin wanted to defeat Arthas after almost killing him outright when he took Frostmourne in the cavern. Saurfang wanted vengeance for Arthas killing his only son. Both couldn't have it and both were driven by rage. And even then, considering what happened at Corp'rethar where the Horde ambushed the Alliance during an assault on the First Gate, I highly doubt that having a fully armed airship pull alongside you would be a cause for merriment. They may have been united against a common cause, but they weren't allies.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    More than a little bit off-topic but, if Wrath was the "Horde and Alliance finally stop fighting each other and focus on the Big Bad" expansion, why does the Gunship battle even happen? For that matter: When the Lich King was finally going to be stopped, why does the Gunship Battle even happen?
    The Wrathgate and, furthermore, the Broken Front in Icecrown explains this well. It was supposed to be the grand unifying of the Horde and the Alliance, until Putricide and Varimathras betrayed the Horde and the truce with the Alliance.
    Professor of History at Silvermoon University

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    Vengeance. Muradin wanted to defeat Arthas after almost killing him outright when he took Frostmourne in the cavern. Saurfang wanted vengeance for Arthas killing his only son. Both couldn't have it and bother were driven by rage.
    Even worse. Canonically, neither were actually there when the Lich King was defeated.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbalDarkwind View Post
    The Wrathgate and, furthermore, the Broken Front in Icecrown explains this well. It was supposed to be the grand unifying of the Horde and the Alliance, until Putricide and Varimathras betrayed the Horde and the truce with the Alliance.
    I wish they had put a Bronze NPC in to take you back to that event because I wasn't around when it happened.
    Enjoyed Draenor questing. If you ignore the end of Nagrand, it's almost as good as 5.0.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    More than a little bit off-topic but, if Wrath was the "Horde and Alliance finally stop fighting each other and focus on the Big Bad" expansion, why does the Gunship battle even happen? For that matter: When the Lich King was finally going to be stopped, why does the Gunship Battle even happen?
    The war wasnot fully settled. At the Wrathgate Bolvar and Saurfang fought together against the Scourge, probably because they were no maniacs like Garrosh now is. But Putress then ignoted the war between Alliance and Horde again.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    I wish they had put a Bronze NPC in to take you back to that event because I wasn't around when it happened.
    You can still do the Wrathgate. You just can't do the Battle for the Undercity.
    Professor of History at Silvermoon University

  8. #28
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Even worse. Canonically, neither were actually there when the Lich King was defeated.
    Yup. Jaina and Sylvannus should've made an appearance. Jaina managed a cameo after the Saurfang fight, but again; neither were present to defeat Arthas as they swore to do.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  9. #29
    I think ICC struck a very good balance. Sindragosa, Lana'thel, Saurfang, Blood Princes had specific lore dealt with outside the instance. Dreamwalker and Gunship both connected to general lore ambience (i.e. the Scourge want the Emerald Dream OMGWTFBBQ; Horde/Alliance battle). And the ones that were new were at least memorable; Deathwhisper and Putricide for instance.

    By contrast, I think we all agree that Dragon Soul is the How Not To for tying undercard bosses into the lore. 8 encounters vs. 7 unique bosses; six of the bosses were total asspulls with only Ultraxion giving you a moment to go "oooh, I remember those quests with the eggs and stuff".

    I actually think MOP is doing a decent job so far. The Queen and the Sha of Fear are well set-up before the fact. Elegon's appearance alone screams Titans enough to make that compelling. I don't mind bosses that are totally from left field. The various Mantid bosses are interchangeable to me, though. Lei Shi... holy crap. She's memorable at least. Most ridiculous and annoying thing since XT, but memorable.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    The Storm Peaks included (directly or indirectly) three of the Watchers: Thorim himself was part of the Sons of Hodir quest chain, and the Sons of Hodir dailies indirectly introduced the player to Hodir. Mimiron was mentioned in at least one little area. Additionally, Razorscale was there, although I don't believe it was ever mentioned that Thorim's proto-drake, Veranus, was Razorscale (Loken captured her and sent her to Ulduar, so it wasn't a difficult connection to make, but still).

    An avatar of Freiya was also present in Sholazar Basin.

    As far as I can remember, none of the rest besides Yogg-Saron appeared or were mentioned anywhere outside Ulduar.
    I believe it was Halls of Lightning where you killed Loken. When he dies, he makes a foreshadowing of Algalon, saying "My death heralds the end of this world." And Algalon mentions that the defense mechanisms have been disabled, Loken was one of the prime defense systems.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Let me be Exhibit A. I had no idea that anyone but Yog'Saron and Thorim were known about before walking into the raid.
    If you quested in NR then you knew who all the watchers were. They were spelled out in SP and SB.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhamer View Post
    If you quested in NR then you knew who all the watchers were. They were spelled out in SP and SB.
    Read what I quoted.
    Enjoyed Draenor questing. If you ignore the end of Nagrand, it's almost as good as 5.0.

  13. #33
    The only raid boss that I really wished had more associated Lore was Leotheras the Blind in SSC. I always loved that fight and the character but he is entirely a nobody with no lore. He has so much potential though. there aren't many demon hunters out there really so his association with Illidan etc could have been more epic. He was trained by Illidan but went mad. That's it. wtb more for him.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Lac View Post
    The only raid boss that I really wished had more associated Lore was Leotheras the Blind in SSC. I always loved that fight and the character but he is entirely a nobody with no lore. He has so much potential though. there aren't many demon hunters out there really so his association with Illidan etc could have been more epic. He was trained by Illidan but went mad. That's it. wtb more for him.
    Leotheras has plenty of lore...

    It makes absolutely no sense for us to know everything about every boss, they have to be unknown. It would just be silly otherwise.

    Some bosses are major characters, they should and mostly do have alot of backstory. Others we know absolutely nothing about and some we know a little about which is all perfectly fine.


    Since it was mentioned below I'll use Firelands as an example:

    • Ragnaros - long time character, plenty of lore and backstory, we've been heavily involved with him before and there were many quests and dungeons in buildup to him throughout the game.
    • Staghelm - long time character, lots of lore, backstory and hype, detailed history in both game and books plus we interacted with him in vanilla and in one cata questline.
    • Baleroc - we've never heard of him before.
    • Alysrazor - had a small buildup throughout quests in cataclysm, we interacted with her, we all know who she is but not much more.
    • Rhyolith - we saw him in a brief cinematic but we know nothing about him.
    • Shannox - we've never heard of him before.
    • Beth'tilac - we know nothing about her except a brief mention in a quest.


    This is a great mix of bosses we know to varying degress and bosses we don't know at all. Most raids should follow this example if possible.
    Last edited by Netherspark; 2012-12-31 at 03:59 AM.

  15. #35
    Warchief Byniri's Avatar
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    Firelands was pretty good with that; all of the bosses were somewhat connected with Hyjal or the Molten Front.
    PEPE SILVA, PEPE SILVA

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Leotheras has plenty of lore...

    It makes absolutely no sense for us to know everything about every boss, they have to be unknown. It would just be silly otherwise.

    Some bosses are major characters, they should and mostly do have alot of backstory. Others we know absolutely nothing about and some we know a little about which is all perfectly fine.


    Since it was mentioned below I'll use Firelands as an example:

    Ragnaros - long time character, plenty of lore and backstory, we've been heavily involved with him before and there were many quests + dungeons in buildup to him.
    Staghelm - long time character, lots of lore, backstory and hype, detailed history in both game and books plus we interacted with him in vanilla and in one cata questline.
    Baleroc - we know nothing about him at all other than what's in the journal.
    Alysrazor - had a lengthy buildup throughout quests in cataclysm, we all know who she is but not much more.
    Rhyolith - we saw him in a brief cinematic.
    Shannox - we know nothing about him at all.
    Beth'tilac - we know nothing about her except what a brief mention in a couple of quests.

    This is a great mix of bosses we know and don't know. Most raids should follow this example if possible.
    What would be silly a out knowing who you're fighting, and why?

    What would be wrong with a new faction, and taking down all the big players in one shot?

    Think about a movie, or a story that doesn't have a sequel, you want to know more about these characters, and why they are targets, other than their association with the main villain. You want to know WHY they are Tied with them.

  17. #37
    Why should we have heard of every single character? HOW would we know them all? It doesnt make sense.

    Every boss can't be a major character... that just ends up being totally bland. We don't need to know anything more than a brief rundown.

  18. #38
    Pandaren Monk Mukki's Avatar
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    TECHNICALLY, every single boss in MC has a backstory!

  19. #39
    I don't think every boss has to be, it would be quite the effort and i don't think blizzard has enough time / resources to do so in a timely manner. I think ICC was a good example where a few good lore figures and a really good atmosphere create and great raid instance.

  20. #40
    A mix of known and unknown is probably best. Ulduar and Icecrown probably are the best examples for this, perfectly balanced.

    ICC: 50% Known, 50% Unknown
    -Unknown-
    Marrowgar
    Deathwhisper
    Rotface
    Festergut
    Putricide
    Dreamwalker

    -Known-
    Gunship
    Saurfang
    Blood Council
    Blood Queen
    Sindragosa
    Lich King


    Ulduar: 50% Known, 50% Unknown
    -Unknown-
    Flame Levithan
    Ignis
    XT-Deconstructor
    Iron Council
    Kologarn
    Auriaya
    General Vezax

    -Known-
    Razorscale
    Thorim
    Hodir
    Mimiron
    Freya
    Yogg-Saron
    Algalon (sort of)

    Trial of the Crusader by comparison introduces you to each fight outside in the Tournament Grounds, but gives very little to no information about each.

    Trial of the Crusader: 100% Known (sort of)
    -Known-
    Northrend Beasts
    Jaraxxus
    Faction Champions
    Twin Valks
    Anub'arak

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