Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Deleted]

I like how the Horde practically greets each other with "slay any human children in their homes today?" and when the Alliance is pushed to the wall and acts out once in all these years there's huge debates about "is the alliance EvIl?!?!"

I like how you take the side of the Alliance and think garrosh = all of the Horde.


Tides of War pretty much confirmed the only people who act like Garrosh, is Garrosh's goons.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 10:09 AM ----------

How did she use her power to aid the Alliance against the Horde? She put up protective spells on Darnassus (apparently). How does that go against the Horde. Is the Alliance not allowed to protect themselves against intruders?

She allowed the Divine Bell to pass through Dalaran to Darnassus and then warded it off.

Directly helping the Alliance against the Horde.

[Scummer]

I like how you take the side of the Alliance and think garrosh = all of the Horde.

Tides of War pretty much confirmed the only people who act like Garrosh, is Garrosh's goons.

Garrosh's goons are the majority of the Orcs. The Orcs are the complete majority of the Horde. That's why it's not false to say that the majority of the Horde support Garrosh.

[Deleted]

Garrosh's goons are the majority of the Orcs. The Orcs are the complete majority of the Horde. That's why it's not false to say that the majority of the Horde support Garrosh.

Except in tides of war it implies Not all the Orcs support him directly, and it's an almost even split, so really, jumping to conclusions just to make the Horde look bad? Yeah nice way of looking the Alliance to be a bunch of Children.

[Deleted]

She allowed the Divine Bell to pass through Dalaran to Darnassus and then warded it off.

Directly helping the Alliance against the Horde.

First of all, where was it mentioned that it passed through Dalaran? I never saw that happening. At the end of the quest the night elf says she's gonna bring it to Darnassus, and then I left. Putting up wards is not helping the Alliance against the Horde. She was just helping them protect a terrible weapon, that in the wrong hands would bring great harm.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 11:44 AM ----------

Except in tides of war it implies Not all the Orcs support him directly, and it's an almost even split, so really, jumping to conclusions just to make the Horde look bad? Yeah nice way of looking the Alliance to be a bunch of Children.

Quote the part where it says it's almost an even split.

[Scummer]

Except in tides of war it implies Not all the Orcs support him directly, and it's an almost even split, so really, jumping to conclusions just to make the Horde look bad? Yeah nice way of looking the Alliance to be a bunch of Children.

Mushroom Vendor = All Orcs.

The Shattering clearly states and shows that he is hugely popular amongst the Horde/Orcs, this is obviously due to his brutal tactics and beliefs in honour above all else style combat that a lot of Orcs see as something every Orcs should aspire to do and be which they fought by during the Northrend Campaign as Cairne noted.
Cataclysm quest content only reinforces this point of Orcs either liking or remaining apathetic to Garrosh as the Frostwolves are the only Orcs to show contempt for Garrosh.
Tides of War also goes onto show the Orcs cheering and parading after Garrosh wipes Theramore off the map. IIRC there was a scene featuring the Orcish army all cheering and shouting in Garrosh's support for the destruction of Theramore which shocked Baine (ofcourse the part with Baine may not be correct but the Orcs definitely are).

I would like some quotes or examples that show your point though. The entirety of the Cataclysm questing indicates the Orcs support Garrosh with the notable exception of the Frostwolves as the sole Orcs who reject him.

[Deleted]

They are surely allowed to protect themselves against retaliation from the Horde.
But the moment that Jaina starts aiding them with that, she stops being neutral and that makes her a hypocrite.
Or you could argue that the actions of one do not change the neutrality of the faction, in which case she is also a hypocrite for attacking the Sunreavers for something Fanlyr did.

Either way, she's being a hypocrite.

It's not about individuals. It's about Dalaran.

[Jediguy]

…the point I'm trying to bring about is the fact that, unlike Jaina, whom acted as an individual with her own means, the Sunreavers used Dalaran, a neutral party, for their purpose. That's the difference. The Sunreavers always acted on their own before, in the support of the Horde.

A hollow claim, as not one Alliance sympathizer here can explain, exactly, how Jaina’s actions were not “using Dalaran” while the Sunreavers’ actions were. Both had their home in Dalaran. Both rendered aid to the faction they favored. Both used their knowledge of magic to make sure the Divine Bell was in the hands of those they sympathized with. It’s the same thing. Saying one used Dalaran while the other didn’t is baseless until you explain how.

[Deleted]

A hollow claim, as not one Alliance sympathizer here can explain, exactly, how Jaina’s actions were not “using Dalaran” while the Sunreavers’ actions were. Both had their home in Dalaran. Both rendered aid to the faction they favored. Both used their knowledge of magic to make sure the Divine Bell was in the hands of those they sympathized with. It’s the same thing. Saying one used Dalaran while the other didn’t is baseless until you explain how.

What hollow claim? Jaina teleported herself to Dalaran, as any mage do. The Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran portals, because Jaina warded Darnassus against teleportation, to steal the Bell.

These are plain simple facts, the Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran for Horde's purposes, Jaina did not.

[Jediguy]

What bothers me the most is that you keep saying that when Jaina aids the Alliance, the Kirin Tor's neutrality is broken. And I've made lots of comments on that, but since you just repeat yourself instead of addressing those points, I don't see much sense in that.

That’s the only way Jaina’s anger toward the Sunreavers is justified: If acting on behalf of those you sympathize against the opposing faction is contrary to the Kirin Tor’s neutrality. If this is permissible, then what in the flip is Jaina doing getting mad at the Sunreavers for doing the very thing she did? Either way, Jaina is wrong.

Jaina helped the Alliance by putting protective spells on Darnassus to hide the bell (I assume)
Thrall helped the Horde by freeing the Darkspear Trolls.

Do you not see the difference here? In the examples provided, Jaina is helping the Alliance specifically against the Horde while Thrall is helping right a wrong within the Horde. Jaina’s actions engage in the conflict between Horde and Alliance while Thrall’s actions do not. It’s just that simple.

It's perfectly fine if an individual helps his faction, even if it is the leader.

Not according to Jaina. She was pissed to the point of killing people and throwing them in prison whenever her efforts to aid the Alliance were countered when the Sunreavers did the same thing she did: helped the faction they favored. Again, double standard.

Jaina didn't lead her Kirin Tor mages into the battle against the Horde.

Except when she purged the Horde from Dalaran in a self-righteous fit of butt-hurt after being beaten at her own game…

That there actually were people like Jaina, who trusted them, was, considering what happens right now, more than they deserved.

I like that you wrote this just seconds before you wrote…

The Garithos card is really lame. Varian even wanted them back in the Alliance. The only one who acted xenophobic was Garithos, not the whole Alliance.

So let me get this straight. When Garrosh acts rash and displays poor judgment, it reflects on all orcs, so that trust is “more than they deserved.” But when an Alliance leader, Garithos, acts rash and displays poor judgment, it does not reflect on all humans. I see. You and Jaina go well together with all these double standards.

How did she use her power to aid the Alliance against the Horde? She put up protective spells on Darnassus (apparently). How does that go against the Horde. Is the Alliance not allowed to protect themselves against intruders?

Don’t be naïve; they knew the Horde was after that thing. Member of the Alliance have guards and their own security, but because they knew the Horde specifically was after it, they had Jaina put extra magic protection around it for additional security. Don’t kid yourself: it was a measure specifically aimed at helping the Alliance keep the bell from the Horde.

[Jediguy]

What hollow claim? Jaina teleported herself to Dalaran, as any mage do. The Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran portals, because Jaina warded Darnassus against teleportation, to steal the Bell.

These are plain simple facts, the Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran for Horde's purposes, Jaina did not.

Several things: (A) the Sunreavers did not create a portal in Darnassus. They created one outside it and from there cloaked a member of the Horde to go in and get the bell. Even if Jaina warded Darnassus against teleportation, it wouldn’t matter to the Sunreavers in teleporting/using a portal just outside. If the Sunreavers used the “official Dalaran to Darnassus portal,” they would have found themselves in the Temple of the Moon, but that’s not where they were. The Sunreavers made their own portal; (B) if Jaina did ward Darnassus against teleportation, she didn’t do a very good job, since a single non-mage player like myself was able to teleport it out within seconds; (C) how is it not a double standard for Jaina to teleport or use portals wherever she wishes but not the Sunreavers?

[Deleted]

They are surely allowed to protect themselves against retaliation from the Horde.
But the moment that Jaina starts aiding them with that, she stops being neutral and that makes her a hypocrite.
Or you could argue that the actions of one do not change the neutrality of the faction, in which case she is also a hypocrite for attacking the Sunreavers for something Fanlyr did.

Either way, she's being a hypocrite.

No. What the Sunreavers did was not betrayal because they helped the Horde, it was because they betrayed the trust of Dalaran, and I already said that multiple times. And I also said that the Sunreavers were even aware they are risking their neutrality.

Is that your argument? "The protection isn't against Horde, it's against everyone! So it's not Alliance-favoured.", really?
This protection wasn't meant against anything but the Horde.
The Alliance quickly took the Bell, they know the Horde is coming to get it back and so they ask Jaina for help because the Night Elves want to study this weapon.

No the protection is against the Horde, but protecting is not the same as attacking. Jaina didn't help them invade Horde terrotory. She just helped to protect her friends and allies.

Yes, the Night Elves want to study this weapon.
And now that we are talking about "being in the wrong hands"...
Do they really think it's a good idea to give the weapon to the people who invited the Burning Legion to Azeroth, the people who destroyed most of this world?
Are these the same Night Elves who invited the Quel'dorei back in their ranks because they want to learn Arcane magic?
I remember this quote from a questline: It's like watching children play with firearms.
From all the possible races in WoW, the Night Elves are just as "wrong hands" as Garrosh himself.

Actually the ones responsible for inviting the Burning Legion were the Highborne, who later became the High Elves of Silvermoon, who later became the Blood Elves. So you're shooting yourself in your own foot.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 03:29 PM ----------

Several things: (A) the Sunreavers did not create a portal in Darnassus. They created one outside it and from there cloaked a member of the Horde to go in and get the bell. Even if Jaina warded Darnassus against teleportation, it wouldn’t matter to the Sunreavers in teleporting/using a portal just outside. If the Sunreavers used the “official Dalaran to Darnassus portal,” they would have found themselves in the Temple of the Moon, but that’s not where they were. The Sunreavers made their own portal

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to tell us.

(B) if Jaina did ward Darnassus against teleportation, she didn’t do a very good job, since a single non-mage player like myself was able to teleport it out within seconds

That's really just a gameplay thing. I can also teleport there on my Alliance mage at any given time.

(C) how is it not a double standard for Jaina to teleport or use portals wherever she wishes but not the Sunreavers?

It's ok if Sunreavers want to teleport there. If their intent is to only say hello and give the people there a strong and firm handshake, then that's no problem. You know Jaina can teleport there because she's welcome there.

[Darth-Piekus]

You know Nindoriel. I don't know if you noticed it but me you and probably most of us in this thread are trying to reason with those 3 specific players (we all can see their names) about something that is already been confirmed by the developers themselves. Trying to argue with those 3 specific players is a waste of time. I believe we should drop the matter and let the next patches speak for us. After all I have seen those kind of players. They are coming here determined to say the opposite no matter how every proof and player is stacked against them. Then the next patch arrives and pretty much gives us the right and finally shuts them up as they have nothing to cling to continue arguing for the sake of arguing. Then they appear in another thread in the future with probably another account to start arguing again for something else.

[Deleted]

No. What the Sunreavers did was not betrayal because they helped the Horde, it was because they betrayed the trust of Dalaran, and I already said that multiple times. And I also said that the Sunreavers were even aware they are risking their neutrality.

Exactly. It's not about the Sunreavers helping the Horde, like Hamuul or any other individual do for each faction, it's about using Dalaran for helping the Horde.

Jaina did not used Dalaran, the Sunreaver(s) did.

[Jediguy]

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to tell us.

It tells us that the Sunreavers did not “use Dalaran” to help the Horde, contrary to your claims.

That's really just a gameplay thing. I can also teleport there on my Alliance mage at any given time.

Which throws into question the claim that Jaina set up anti-teleportation barriers around Darnassus; or, at the very least, effective ones.

It's ok if Sunreavers want to teleport there. If their intent is to only say hello and give the people there a strong and firm handshake, then that's no problem. You know Jaina can teleport there because she's welcome there.

Jaina teleporting to Darnassus to help the Alliance against the Horde is okay.
Sunreavers teleporting outside of Darnassus to help the Horde against the Alliance is not okay.

See the double standard yet? No one “uses Dalaran,” both teleport/use portals, both are part of a “neutral” faction, and both help one side of a conflict against the other. Yet Jaina thinks it’s okay for her to engage in the conflict but not the Sunreavers. In fact, she’s so vehement about people behaving as she does that she immediately kills and imprisons anyone who dares think they can engage in the Horde/Alliance conflict as she did. She’s brazenly out of line.

[Deleted]

See the double standard yet? No one “uses Dalaran,” both teleport/use portals, both are part of a “neutral” faction, and both help one side of a conflict against the other. Yet Jaina thinks it’s okay for her to engage in the conflict but not the Sunreavers. In fact, she’s so vehement about people behaving as she does that she immediately kills and imprisons anyone who dares think they can engage in the Horde/Alliance conflict as she did. She’s brazenly out of line.

Mages can teleport wherever they want. So Jaina warded Darnassus against direct teleportation. That's why the Sunreavers used Dalarani portals to reach the Bell without an naval/aerial assault on Teldrassil.

So, yes, one can use Dalaran assets, the portals are part of Dalaran.

[DFu4ever]

something that is already been confirmed by the developers themselves.

You keep saying this but haven't shown a single shred of proof that devs have confirmed anything, much less even talked about this. In fact, other than whine about Horde bias you haven't contributed much to this conversation at all. At least the others we are debating this with try to make actual points. You just show up every page or two and give us a bit of "LOL u still talkin' bout this? Horde don't know what they are talking about because they are Garrosh fans. Devs confirmed this!" and then disappear without responding to anyone calling you out.

If I was the devs I'd stay quiet since the best thing about how murky the Jaina's purge situation is is that it promotes this kind of debate. It's one of the more interesting things WoW has ever done.

[Jediguy]

Mages can teleport wherever they want. So Jaina warded Darnassus against direct teleportation. That's why the Sunreavers used Dalarani portals to reach the Bell without an naval/aerial assault on Teldrassil.

So, yes, one can use Dalaran assets, the portals are part of Dalaran.

Apparently, you completely skipped over the part where I pointed out the Sunreavers did NOT open a portal inside Darnassus – the alleged anti-teleportation zone. You allege the Sunreavers couldn’t open portals to Darnassus because of the anti-teleportation wards Jaina set up (source, please), but those wards are completely irrelevant when the Sunreavers teleported outside the city! There was absolutely no need for them to use the Dalaran portals to Darnassus – they didn’t even portal to Darnassus! They portaled outside the city – outside Jaina’s alleged protective wards – well within the ability of any knowledgeable mage, especially as a Blood Elf member of the Kirin Tor, renowned for their knowledge of magic. Dalaran was not used. Period.

[Yriel]

You know Nindoriel. I don't know if you noticed it but me you and probably most of us in this thread are trying to reason with those 3 specific players (we all can see their names) about something that is already been confirmed by the developers themselves.

Again, where did they confirm that ?`Even ingame it´s shown as dubious when she talks with Varian afterwards and he asks "Why did you do that ? I was negotiating with them" and she basically says "Screw you, it´s my way now".

[Darth-Piekus]

Yriel I already have linked my proof plenty of times in other earlier threads. The thing is that it doesn't change anything. Even if I link the confirmations from the developers themselves again it won't change anything. There will be players who will keep saying the same thing again and again just for the sake of arguement.

[Deleted]

Apparently, you completely skipped over the part where I pointed out the Sunreavers did NOT open a portal inside Darnassus – the alleged anti-teleportation zone. You allege the Sunreavers couldn’t open portals to Darnassus because of the anti-teleportation wards Jaina set up (source, please), but those wards are completely irrelevant when the Sunreavers teleported outside the city! There was absolutely no need for them to use the Dalaran portals to Darnassus – they didn’t even portal to Darnassus! They portaled outside the city – outside Jaina’s alleged protective wards – well within the ability of any knowledgeable mage, especially as a Blood Elf member of the Kirin Tor, renowned for their knowledge of magic. Dalaran was not used. Period.

Words of Jaina Proudmoore herself:

"Come with me.

I had Darnassus LOCKED DOWN! Every fumbling rogue that tried to sneak into the city, I CAUGHT them! I snatched every two-bit charlatan that attempted to teleport through my traps!

They couldn't possibly have gotten through... this was an inside job. Somebody inside the city has the Bell, unless... no...

These portals connect to Dalaran. That means the Kirin Tor... MY OWN Kirin Tor... helped the Horde commit this atrocity.
I will NOT be betrayed again! Those responsible for this will be punished!"


There, on the Alliance side of the chain.