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  1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by esmifra View Post
    Everything went to hell in wrathgate, BEFORE undercity.

    Also you probably jumped an expansion, because if Varian succeeded in killing thrall (which is still for debate) there wouldn't be an Azeroth now, Deathwing would have won. Every character would be death, so no! You are completely wrong. Jaina did the absolutely right thing at the point. It was Thrall's Horde not Garrosh's.
    If Varian would have killed Thrall, there would certainly still be an Azeroth. The plot in Cataclysm would have just have been different.

    Not sure why so many people are keen on defending Jaina. She was incredibly short-sighted and naive to think Garrosh would just sit there and watch as she abuses her neutral status to ship Alliance forces to Kalimdor in order to fight the Horde.

    I suppose it's legit for the Alliance to use Theramore to infiltrate and fight the Horde, but the Horde using Dalaran as a transportion device to fight the Alliance is totally off the table. You say she did the right thing, but all she did was to make herself a legitimate target for Garrosh, and thus she doomed everyone at Theramore. It was an act of idiocy.

  2. #862
    There's also that awkward moment when you (as the Horde PC) have to tell Aethas, Rommath, and Theron that you are partially responsible for the Sunreavers getting kicked out of Dalaran. The PC's role in this story is confusing. You're supposed to sympathize with the Blood Elves being used as fodder by Garrosh (when you are taken aside in a private conversation with Theron), but you take orders from Garrosh that put them at risk. You aren't even threatened with execution the way Fanlyr is. You do it just because Garrosh payed you. The whole time the Purge is happening, the PC should be like, "Yeah... sorry guys. I totally brought this down on you. That Fanlyr guy said he covered our tracks, but... yeah... My bad."
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-01-22 at 10:45 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzard View Post
    If Varian would have killed Thrall, there would certainly still be an Azeroth. The plot in Cataclysm would have just have been different.
    From a writers perspective... sure. They could have given Deathwing a heart-attack.
    But from a lore perspective it's doubtful if anyone could have replaced Thrall as the earth-warden replacement. If you like it or not, he is by far the most powerful Shaman.

  4. #864
    I think that if Blizzard wanted they could have found a replacement for Thrall. You don't really need to be a Shaman in order to control the Dragon Soul. It's true that Thrall is the most powerful shaman as it's one of my favorite characters but I believe Blizzard can write their scenario with 1000 possible ways.

    About the whole Sunreaver/ Dalaran thing I believe we all agree that if Garrosh hadn't started all this none of this would happen. You have to understand that either we like it or not the Alliance was on defensive each time. Theramore bringing Alliance troops to the barrens was due to Garrosh starting a war and not wanting to find a solution to the wood problem (I can give you 1000 solutions) which lead to the Theramore attack. This attack however didn't have Theramore as targets. Garrosh wanted to destroy as many as possible. He wanted to kill Rhonin with his Kirin Tor there. He wanted to kill the leader of the Blue Dragonflight there. He was attacking Neutral Factions all the time from Cataclysm until now. The retaliation of the first of many neutral factions was about to happen sooner or later and I believe that won't be the only one. Other neutral factions have legitimate reasons to stand up to Garrosh alongside the Alliance and the Rebels of the Horde. It's not about the break of neutrality for the sake of war. I don't think they can do otherwise.

    And one more thing. When the Siege of Orgrimmar is over the Horde will have to do a very serious attempt to fix their reputation. There is a possibility that the Horde may never have another chance to prove that they are not like Garrosh. Think of it. When the Lich King was defeated and Garrosh took the lead immediately he started his campaign for the conquer of Azeroth. Sure there was Deathwing but check the two sides and you will see that Varian had his focus on Deathwing while Garrosh used the Cataclysm to gain an advantage. Who's to say the same thing won't happen after they defeat Sargeras for example. Who's to say another orc like Garrosh will rise up and do the same. The thing is the Horde will have to work even harder this time to prove that they left that warlike behavior behind.

    It's true that not all of the Horde are like Garrosh but if you look at every NPC that was hit hard by the Horde they first thing they will say is that Horde did this and that and not Garrosh did this and that.

  5. #865
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    That bitch! I wonder why she didn't slaughter mankind when she learned of Arthas' betrayal, just in case there were other Scourge initiates among them. It's all about the race in the end.
    See, it's not all about the race. The Sunreavers weren't thrown out because they were Blood Elves, they were thrown out because they're Sunreavers. It's about affiliation and not about genetics. High Elves are the same race as Blood Elves, and the Alliance is fine with them. Stop making this argument.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 01:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Meh, it's only fair to be mildly shauvinistiс these days, just to balance things out. Well, I dunno, slaughtering half a district isn't a small deal to me, especially considering that the whole city is very small.
    Neither is dropping a bomb on a city.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    See, it's not all about the race. The Sunreavers weren't thrown out because they were Blood Elves, they were thrown out because they're Sunreavers. It's about affiliation and not about genetics. High Elves are the same race as Blood Elves, and the Alliance is fine with them. Stop making this argument.
    It's actually the Blood Elves who are slightly racist against the Humans for past wrongs.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  7. #867
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It's actually the Blood Elves who are slightly racist against the Humans for past wrongs.
    I do think they still hold a grudge against them, but I'm not sure about racism in WoW. The thing is that we have certain groups in WoW. Humans are not just humans, mainly they're the humans of Stormwind. Orcs aren't just any orcs. They're not fel orcs, they're not Mag'har. They're orcs who came to Azeroth from Draenor, years ago, most of them probably either during the first or the second war. They have a certain mentality and a certain history and it's fine to judge people based on their actions. I think the races we play in WoW are more like small factions in themselves.

  8. #868
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    See, it's not all about the race. The Sunreavers weren't thrown out because they were Blood Elves, they were thrown out because they're Sunreavers. It's about affiliation and not about genetics. High Elves are the same race as Blood Elves, and the Alliance is fine with them. Stop making this argument.
    She didn't condemn her own people for analogous shit, that's the point.
    Neither is dropping a bomb on a city.
    Hey, it's actually war out there. And Dalaran was supposed to be kinda Geneva. "A german spy was caught in Geneva!" - "CONVICT AND KILL ALL GERMAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE IN GENEVA!!!" There simply isn't a justification for a pogrom. I remember Alliance making this argument in regards to Horde massacring Alliance troops after Taurajo. "It's not fair, Horde should've done an investigation and find the exact responsible one, genocide is not an answer, yadda yadda".
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  9. #869
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    I think that if Blizzard wanted they could have found a replacement for Thrall. You don't really need to be a Shaman in order to control the Dragon Soul. It's true that Thrall is the most powerful shaman as it's one of my favorite characters but I believe Blizzard can write their scenario with 1000 possible ways.
    It's not a matter of just using it. Deathwing never put a piece of Khazgoroth's essence in it himself, Thrall did it for him. It gave it the extra punch it needed because it drew on one of Deathwing's sources of power. Would you really wanted to have scene some random shaman out of nowhere in lore pop up and wield that kind of power? It had to be a shaman to be able to commune with the earth on that level lorewise to even complete the thing to be able to use effectively on Deathwing. Personally I'm glad they used Thrall. It led to all this fun lore lately by giving Garrosh free reign because Thrall had to step down.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  10. #870
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    I will slay any forsaken I see


    and already do

    to hell with the horde

    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Happy Hunting! ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by Duncanîdaho View Post
    It's not a matter of just using it. Deathwing never put a piece of Khazgoroth's essence in it himself, Thrall did it for him. It gave it the extra punch it needed because it drew on one of Deathwing's sources of power. Would you really wanted to have scene some random shaman out of nowhere in lore pop up and wield that kind of power? It had to be a shaman to be able to commune with the earth on that level lorewise to even complete the thing to be able to use effectively on Deathwing. Personally I'm glad they used Thrall. It led to all this fun lore lately by giving Garrosh free reign because Thrall had to step down.
    I don't remember anything about Khaz'goroth's essence. What is that from?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  12. #872
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    I will slay any forsaken I see


    and already do

    to hell with the horde
    Uncool, bro.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Hey, it's actually war out there. And Dalaran was supposed to be kinda Geneva. "A german spy was caught in Geneva!" - "CONVICT AND KILL ALL GERMAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE IN GENEVA!!!"
    That's a poor analogy. "A Swiss Nazi sympathiser was caught in Geneva breaking into the Allied embassy and stealing intel which resulted in the Nazis stealing technology and killing Allied troops abroad. Detain all Swiss Nazi sympathisers and neutralise any whom resist so that we can find this backstabbing betrayer of our neutrality." is a far better one...

  14. #874
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    That's a poor analogy. "A Swiss Nazi sympathiser was caught in Geneva breaking into the Allied embassy and stealing intel which resulted in the Nazis stealing technology and killing Allied troops abroad. Detain all Swiss Nazi sympathisers and neutralise any whom resist so that we can find this backstabbing betrayer of our neutrality." is a far better one...
    Except, "caught" should be "proclaimed by a psychic to have."
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #875
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    That's a poor analogy. "A Swiss Nazi sympathiser was caught in Geneva breaking into the Allied embassy and stealing intel which resulted in the Nazis stealing technology and killing Allied troops abroad. Detain all Swiss Nazi sympathisers and neutralise any whom resist so that we can find this backstabbing betrayer of our neutrality." is a far better one...
    Also looks kinda poor because, you know, everyone hates nazis. And I kinda feel the point that Jaina helping the Alliance "secure" the bell, broke the neutrality in the first place. She kinda had to decide which side she was on. If she's with Kirin Tor, it was not her business altogether, and if she's Alliance, it's only fair that Horde spies steal from her because, well, Horde is at war with Alliance. Otherwise it's rather hypocritical that she, as a leader of Kirin Tor, enforces neutrality and tolerance in her (?) city while openly aiding one side when she's not in Dalaran. And then she demands Aethas' head like he's supposed to be held accountable.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Also looks kinda poor because, you know, everyone hates nazis.
    no, I wasn't using Nazis as an example of something everyone hated, merely a WW2 analogy since Switzerland was famously neutral. I suppose I could've said "stealing stuff for the Kaiser" but that might've been over everyones heads.

    And I kinda feel the point that Jaina helping the Alliance "secure" the bell, broke the neutrality in the first place.
    No, she wasn't helping the Alliance specifically. The Ward was to prevent theft of a powerful artifact, from Horde or Alliance hands. She didn't put a ward on Darnassus specifically to keep the Horde out.

    She kinda had to decide which side she was on. If she's with Kirin Tor, it was not her business altogether
    Wrong again. The UN is neutral, but they will engage in support roles to prevent things from happening, like setting up DMZs etc. The Horde, whom have already made it clear they have no problems whatsoever unleashing any kind of terrible, horrible destructive power recklessly upon the Alliance, shouldn't be having access to such a weapon.

    and if she's Alliance, it's only fair that Horde spies steal from her because, well, Horde is at war with Alliance.
    It wasn't "horde spies" it was "Sunreaver betrayers", even the Sunreavers themselves were betrayed by them, but because of the association and their flat out resistance to an investigation, things spiraled out of control. Jaina isn't guilty of anything other than jumping the gun, I presume she wasn't aware of Varian's negotiations. To accuse genocide or even murder is ludicrous.

    Otherwise it's rather hypocritical that she, as a leader of Kirin Tor, enforces neutrality and tolerance in her (?) city while openly aiding one side when she's not in Dalaran.
    Again, the ward wasn't "aiding the Alliance". It was designed to keep the Bell away from hands that shouldn't have it. Be it mental patient Maiev, genocidal maniacs of the Horde or a wayward admiral rogers looking to start her own research project.

    And then she demands Aethas' head like he's supposed to be held accountable.
    She didn't demand Aethas' head. If she wanted him dead she would've incinerated him instantly. She presumed Aethas knew what was going on because he's the head of the Sunreavers and Sunreavers were responsible. She was arresting Sunreavers, rounding them up for questioning and interrogation (zealous players would be the ones engaging in any slaughter, and fortunately thats not really canon), it's called a dragnet. Law Enforcement does this stuff all the time, but if you start opening fire on the cops and get shot dead, it's your own fault. She wanted to know who was responsible for bypassing her wards. The Sunreavers didn't know, legitimately, but why should she believe their word when it's the second time a Sunreaver has done this to her?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 09:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except, "caught" should be "proclaimed by a psychic to have."
    No, it wasn't proclaimed by a psychic. Do the Alliance side quests and you'll know she had all the evidence she needed... (or does no one on this bloody horde loving forum play Alliance at all even to see the other side of the story?)
    Last edited by Justignoreme; 2013-01-23 at 09:03 AM.

  17. #877
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    No, she wasn't helping the Alliance specifically. The Ward was to prevent theft of a powerful artifact, from Horde or Alliance hands. She didn't put a ward on Darnassus specifically to keep the Horde out.
    Not this bullshit AGAIN.
    She made sure that only the Night Elves could study this weapon in their capital.
    If that is not an Alliance-bias, I don't even know how to argue with you -_-'

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    That's a poor analogy. "A Swiss Nazi sympathiser was caught in Geneva breaking into the Allied embassy and stealing intel which resulted in the Nazis stealing technology and killing Allied troops abroad. Detain all Swiss Nazi sympathisers and neutralise any whom resist so that we can find this backstabbing betrayer of our neutrality." is a far better one...
    That's a poor analogy too, since your analogy acts as if all Sunreavers are Garrosh-sympathisers.

  18. #878
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    She didn't condemn her own people for analogous shit, that's the point.

    Hey, it's actually war out there. And Dalaran was supposed to be kinda Geneva. "A german spy was caught in Geneva!" - "CONVICT AND KILL ALL GERMAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE IN GENEVA!!!" There simply isn't a justification for a pogrom. I remember Alliance making this argument in regards to Horde massacring Alliance troops after Taurajo. "It's not fair, Horde should've done an investigation and find the exact responsible one, genocide is not an answer, yadda yadda".
    Why would she condemn her own people. It's still not about race and you still haven't understood that.

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    No, she wasn't helping the Alliance specifically. The Ward was to prevent theft of a powerful artifact, from Horde or Alliance hands. She didn't put a ward on Darnassus specifically to keep the Horde out.
    So the ward was supposed to keep the alliance out of ... Darnassus ??? I really don't get it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    It wasn't "horde spies" it was "Sunreaver betrayers", even the Sunreavers themselves were betrayed by them, but because of the association and their flat out resistance to an investigation, things spiraled out of control. Jaina isn't guilty of anything other than jumping the gun, I presume she wasn't aware of Varian's negotiations. To accuse genocide or even murder is ludicrous.
    Resistance to investigation ? What investigations ? She ported back and immediately started killing blood elves, told Aethas to leave the city and when he said as much as "Wait a minute" she imprisoned him and started her rampage.
    Actually thats what many Horde player accuse her of, that she never started to investigate anything and that there were no trials. Every blood elf was guilty by kin liability in her eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Again, the ward wasn't "aiding the Alliance". It was designed to keep the Bell away from hands that shouldn't have it. Be it mental patient Maiev, genocidal maniacs of the Horde or a wayward admiral rogers looking to start her own research project.
    So then why should the Night Elves have it ? Ever played the new Tyrande scenario at the red crane temple ? Not really the person you want to give the bell to.

  20. #880
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    no, I wasn't using Nazis as an example of something everyone hated, merely a WW2 analogy since Switzerland was famously neutral. I suppose I could've said "stealing stuff for the Kaiser" but that might've been over everyones heads.
    You gat that effect whether you wanted it or not, so be careful. Bringing up real world analogues is fine, mentioning WW2 is fine, but bringing up nazis is what Godwins threads, because everyone automatically hates nazis (or a person who mentions them in what they think is an unappropriate comparison).
    No, she wasn't helping the Alliance specifically. The Ward was to prevent theft of a powerful artifact, from Horde or Alliance hands. She didn't put a ward on Darnassus specifically to keep the Horde out.
    But why wasn't the bell kept on a neutral territory (in Violet Citadel, why not?), why was Jaina so pissed that Horde stole it, and why did she choose Darnassus and not, say, Undercity?
    Wrong again. The UN is neutral, but they will engage in support roles to prevent things from happening, like setting up DMZs etc. The Horde, whom have already made it clear they have no problems whatsoever unleashing any kind of terrible, horrible destructive power recklessly upon the Alliance, shouldn't be having access to such a weapon.
    Now that's an argument that I can understand and agree with.
    It wasn't "horde spies" it was "Sunreaver betrayers", even the Sunreavers themselves were betrayed by them, but because of the association and their flat out resistance to an investigation, things spiraled out of control. Jaina isn't guilty of anything other than jumping the gun, I presume she wasn't aware of Varian's negotiations. To accuse genocide or even murder is ludicrous.
    But the pogrom actually happened. And look at it from the Sunreavers' perspective - wild accusations, armed members of Silver Covenant around (finally getting a long-awaited excuse) and all kinds of shit they were told would not happen until Jaina is in charge... with Jaina in charge of all that shit. To them, it looked like Alliance took over and tried to force them out of the city, giving up everything in process (for the Covenant to plunder).
    Again, the ward wasn't "aiding the Alliance". It was designed to keep the Bell away from hands that shouldn't have it. Be it mental patient Maiev, genocidal maniacs of the Horde or a wayward admiral rogers looking to start her own research project.
    It's like placing a grenade in your pants. What did she expect? That no one will ever try to steal it ad no one would ever outsmart her? The only right way to achieve what you said would've been to drown it in Maelstrom, throw it off Outland into the Nether, or get a Harmonic Mallet and wreck it. Or just wreck it if it was possible. But no, she preferred to keep it "safe" thinking she's the smartest one around here.
    She didn't demand Aethas' head. If she wanted him dead she would've incinerated him instantly. She presumed Aethas knew what was going on because he's the head of the Sunreavers and Sunreavers were responsible. She was arresting Sunreavers, rounding them up for questioning and interrogation (zealous players would be the ones engaging in any slaughter, and fortunately thats not really canon), it's called a dragnet. Law Enforcement does this stuff all the time, but if you start opening fire on the cops and get shot dead, it's your own fault. She wanted to know who was responsible for bypassing her wards. The Sunreavers didn't know, legitimately, but why should she believe their word when it's the second time a Sunreaver has done this to her?
    ...and if we remember how humans wronged blood elves during the Third War, one should think it's a miracle of generosity if a BE entrusts a human with anything more than a burned match.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 01:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Why would she condemn her own people. It's still not about race and you still haven't understood that.
    Humans did the exact same thing, even worse - turned over to the deadliest common enemy, giving Scourgу upper hand in numerous situations. It was way worse than the whole Divine Bell ordeal, yet at that time Jaina didn't even think of a mass "investigation".
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

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