Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Aquamonkey]

wow guys i am amazed at what you are arguing about here.

So the Horde and Alliance are at WAR. This is no romantic stuff, its all out war. People get hurt, some innocents, some civilians. Looking at human history, can you say it is surprinsing what is going on? Bigotry? Hatred? Of course, war brings out the worst from everyone. WW2 had far harder to swallow scenes than throwing some dude to the sharks, or walking around a city and killing those that would refuse imprisonment.

Who is in the right? Who cares? Allies said horde started it, horde says they didnt know. War baby, its on.

To the ones that say that alliance overreacts in Dalaran - whici they are given how they were portrayed until now -, i invite you to imagine the scenario reversed. I think Hordes would very much slaughter allies, no problem. Then you would write on the forums that horde is hardcore and alliance for sissies. When its the other way around, allies are bigots and Jaina is unbalanced. Well hi, taste some of that medicine.

The Alliance is supposed to be the paragon of good and the righteous. You expect them to be above these things. The Horde are mongrel scavengers. You expect them to do these things.

[Deleted]

"I can't believe you are going to sit there and try to justify her bigotry as the act of an intelligent leader.

When the US finds spies, we don't arrest the ambassador and every foreign national from that country."

I didn't say anything about race in that post. You can be bigoted against a group of people without it being racism. There are other types of profiling besides racial.


It's still a type of slavery. And again, they enslaved innocent orcs as well. It was more than just penal labor.

You were talking about US citizens and foreigners. Sounds like different races to me.

If you're saying that imprisoning someone and forcing them to work is a kind of slavery, then I can agree that one can see it from that angle. That's why I drew the comparison to our prison system. We do the same thing. So do you think it's not right we imprison people and make them work in prison? I don't recall any innocent orcs being imprisoned. If the charge was fighting against the Alliance in the 1st and 2nd war then pretty much every adult orc on Azeroth at that time was guilty. Except infants, but what can you do about that.

[Darth-Piekus]

What irony. I thought the Hordies said that this game was full of grey and not Black and White. What happened? Did we eat our own words? Is the Alliance now the paragon of good and the Horde the evil scavengers?

[Aquamonkey]

You were talking about US citizens and foreigners. Sounds like different races to me.

It's not, though. It's nationalism.

If you're saying that imprisoning someone and forcing them to work is a kind of slavery, then I can agree that one can see it from that angle. That's why I drew the comparison to our prison system. We do the same thing. So do you think it's not right we imprison people and make them work in prison? I don't recall any innocent orcs being imprisoned. If the charge was fighting against the Alliance in the 1st and 2nd war then pretty much every adult orc on Azeroth at that time was guilty. Except infants, but what can you do about that.

You could not throw the infants in labor camps. How about adopting them into families and raising them like normal children.

What irony. I thought the Hordies said that this game was full of grey and not Black and White. What happened? Did we eat our own words? Is the Alliance now the paragon of good and the Horde the evil scavengers?

I'm saying that's what they're supposed to be. That's what they declare themselves to be. That's what they aspire to be. However, it's not what they are.

I didn't say the Horde were evil scavengers. I said "mongrel". You equated mongrel with evil. Scavengers are expected to do what it takes to survive.

EDIT: Now that I've had more time to think about it, it makes me even more angry that you would equate mongrel with evil. That is a very serious and dangerous state of mind.

[Scummer]

Scummer, meet WoW-lore.
I'm not happy about it either, but that's probably how it will turn out.

I can still hope .

What do you expect? If you want the Alliance to seize control over Orgrimmar, I can tell you that it won't happen.
The nature of this game and the factions prevent stuff like that from happening.

The last time we actually had such a "progress" in warfare was when the Horde took over many territories.
And that only resulted into the number of zones actually being balanced =/

I don't want or expect to see any zones being taken over etc etc as the fact is that game balance will always come first and if such a thing were to happen it would have to be all zones that were affected by the War in Cata (Which was next to all of them) which is an addition I'd rather not see again. As is the nature of such things oppressing and beating the losers into the dirt only breeds resent and further violence.
The only zone I have a real interest in seeing updated would be Ashenvale due to it's importance to both the Orcs and Night Elves and the fact it was where everything started.

The Horde expect to come out beaten and battered, but reunited in their purpose and I suppose reinvigorated as their rebellion only made the races closer in the end. On top of this their leader that nobody likes is gone who will be replaced with a better as of yet unnamed Warchief. So they have a very clear endgame.

I'd like to see the Alliance properly united in the face of the SoO. Not this silly "Hush Tyrande!" nonsense we've gotten so far. I'd like to see all of the race properly involved and treated as equals in the siege rather than just Varian and the Human's underlings. I'd also like to see some sort of agreement/chat at the end where the Horde acknowledge their wrongs and the price the Alliance had to pay for them.

As is some what relevant to this thread, I'd also like to see some sort of positive conclusion to Jaina and Dalaran. It'd be a shame to lose her in any shape or form.

---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 06:49 PM ----------

Blizzard focuses too much on Orcs and humans and they more or less stated that won't change in the future, which will most likely lead to the orcs getting a clap on their fingers and everything will be as it used to be.

Which would be a damn shame.

[mistuhbull]

No. If a Sunreaver cast a magic shield on Silvermoon, I don't think anyone, especially Jaina would've seen that as betrayal, either. Sunreavers and Silver Covenant were aiding their own factions exclusively since WotLK, by providing weapons and shelter to their faction in Dalaran and at the Argent Tournament, while at the same time preventing the other faction from ever getting inside their part of the city and refusing to aid them at all.

Except that's not an equivalency. Jaina's actions was the actions of the Leader of the Kirin Tor, actively promoting the Alliance cause in the war between the two, this was before being "betrayed" by the Sunreavers. If Jaina had taken the Bell and put it in Dalaran so that neither side had it, it would be one thing (and make the betrayal an actual thing other than a hamfisted attempt to justify the Kirin Tor returning to the Alliance), but she didn't. She kept it safe in Darnassus so the Alliance could have it and the Horde could not.

[Aquamonkey]

If Jaina valued neutrality so much, she would have remained neutral after the Purge instead of immediately running to the Alliance.

[mistuhbull]

If Jaina valued neutrality so much, she would have remained neutral after the Purge instead of immediately running to the Alliance.

She ran to the Alliance before the purge, then used the Purge to justify it

[Deleted]

It's not, though. It's nationalism.


You could not throw the infants in labor camps. How about adopting them into families and raising them like normal children.


I'm saying that's what they're supposed to be. That's what they declare themselves to be. That's what they aspire to be. However, it's not what they are.

I didn't say the Horde were evil scavengers. I said "mongrel". You equated mongrel with evil. Scavengers are expected to do what it takes to survive.

Yeah sure. I bet there's so many families that want to adopt the children of the people that butchered you. You can't expect that from them. Taretha's mother wasn't really happy that her dear husband pushed her into this situation.

---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 09:13 PM ----------

If Jaina valued neutrality so much, she would have remained neutral after the Purge instead of immediately running to the Alliance.

Before the Sunreavers betrayed her a second time, the Alliance player goes to her and asks her to throw the Sunreavers out and make Dalaran join the Alliance. She refuses. She only turned to the Alliance for help after she was betrayed the second time, at which point she probably decided for herself to make Dalaran join the Alliance.

[DFu4ever]

Before the Sunreavers betrayed her a second time

While technically he betrayed Jaina, Thalen Songweaver, like any Kirin Tor member, should never have been at Theramore defending against a Horde assault in the first place. The Kirin Tor being at all involved in actively defending Theramore was a huge breach of neutrality.

She may have been butthurt about him 'betraying' her, but he was already betraying neutrality by being there.

The Sunreavers had every reason to remove Rhonin from his position as the head of the Kirin Tor the moment he decided to assist in the Alliance defense of Theramore. The same goes for Jaina defending the Bell. That is what makes her actions so mind bogglingly hypocritical when you look at the big picture. Neutrality had already been actively broken twice before Fanlyr somehow broke neutrality. (there is still no good explanation for how he nebulously 'used' Dalaran to get the Bell, since no portals used in the entire operation came from or went to Dalaran.)

[mistuhbull]

^not to mention, if Dalaran is open to the Alliance and the Horde, then it is open to the Alliance and the Horde. Not open "so long as none of your friends ever do anything that helps the other team".

The Sunreavers in question didn't attack Dalaran, they didn't endanger the Kirin Tor at large, they didn't divulge state secrets, they (as best explained in the game) travelled through Dalaran on their way back to Garrosh. That's all. It would be like someone stealing something from Berlin, driving through Rome on their way back to France and then the Roman Police went around and rounded up every French citizen they could find, stripped them of their possessions, and threw them in jail (and anyone who defended themselves was killed) (yes, I am aware that the route described makes no fucking sense, i'm an amurican i (clearly) don't know geography)

[Aquamonkey]

Before the Sunreavers betrayed her a second time, the Alliance player goes to her and asks her to throw the Sunreavers out and make Dalaran join the Alliance. She refuses. She only turned to the Alliance for help after she was betrayed the second time, at which point she probably decided for herself to make Dalaran join the Alliance.

She does a complete 180. Everything she says in the conversation tree for that quest, she contradicts later on.

"True, they are advocates of the Horde. But they have been allies and productive members of the Kirin Tor for over 2000 years. This city is their home."

"So... you would purge the city? Cast the Sunreavers from their homes? The very same Sunreavers who helped humans discover magic in the first place?"

"You're so passionate for your cause and clear in convictions. Believe me when I say that the Sunreavers are the same. The Horde is their family.

Not all of them support Garrosh. But they're not about to abandon their own people... I couldn't ask them to without tearing the Kirin Tor apart.

The Kirin Tor is sacred to me. We need to stay united."

"But you are right. The Kirin Tor is bigger then you, me, Alliance or Horde. I have a responsibility to preserve it, and to use its powers wisely."

"The Kirin-Tor has a legacy of abuse. Kel'thuzad turned his knowledge of the arcane arts toward Necromancy. Kael'thas Sunstrider was also a student here, another of our fold who betrayed us."

"If we can trust one another here, then there's hope for the rest of the world."

I guess there is no hope for the rest of the world. Especially with someone so bi-polar in charge of such a powerful organization.

[Deleted]

While technically he betrayed Jaina, Thalen Songweaver, like any Kirin Tor member, should never have been at Theramore defending against a Horde assault in the first place. The Kirin Tor being at all involved in actively defending Theramore was a huge breach of neutrality.

She may have been butthurt about him 'betraying' her, but he was already betraying neutrality by being there.

The Sunreavers had every reason to remove Rhonin from his position as the head of the Kirin Tor the moment he decided to assist in the Alliance defense of Theramore. The same goes for Jaina defending the Bell. That is what makes her actions so mind bogglingly hypocritical when you look at the big picture. Neutrality had already been actively broken twice before Fanlyr somehow broke neutrality. (there is still no good explanation for how he nebulously 'used' Dalaran to get the Bell, since no portals used in the entire operation came from or went to Dalaran.)

But the Horde aided the Kirin Tor, too. The Sunreavers voted for helping Jaina.

---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 09:45 PM ----------

She does a complete 180. Everything she says in the conversation tree for that quest, she contradicts later on.

"True, they are advocates of the Horde. But they have been allies and productive members of the Kirin Tor for over 2000 years. This city is their home."

"So... you would purge the city? Cast the Sunreavers from their homes? The very same Sunreavers who helped humans discover magic in the first place?"

"You're so passionate for your cause and clear in convictions. Believe me when I say that the Sunreavers are the same. The Horde is their family.

Not all of them support Garrosh. But they're not about to abandon their own people... I couldn't ask them to without tearing the Kirin Tor apart.

The Kirin Tor is sacred to me. We need to stay united."

"But you are right. The Kirin Tor is bigger then you, me, Alliance or Horde. I have a responsibility to preserve it, and to use its powers wisely."

"The Kirin-Tor has a legacy of abuse. Kel'thuzad turned his knowledge of the arcane arts toward Necromancy. Kael'thas Sunstrider was also a student here, another of our fold who betrayed us."

"If we can trust one another here, then there's hope for the rest of the world."

I guess there is no hope for the rest of the world. Especially with someone so bi-polar in charge of such a powerful organization.

I'm not really getting what you are trying to tell me by underlining that stuff. That she shouldn't have trusted the Sunreavers based on past experiences with mages like Kel and Kael?

[Aquamonkey]

But the Horde aided the Kirin Tor, too. The Sunreavers voted for helping Jaina.

Aethas isn't Horde. He wasn't even considered part of the Blood Elf hierarchy when he went to Theron for help against Malygos. They considered him an outsider because of his position in the Kirin Tor.

[Deleted]

^not to mention, if Dalaran is open to the Alliance and the Horde, then it is open to the Alliance and the Horde. Not open "so long as none of your friends ever do anything that helps the other team".

The Sunreavers in question didn't attack Dalaran, they didn't endanger the Kirin Tor at large, they didn't divulge state secrets, they (as best explained in the game) travelled through Dalaran on their way back to Garrosh. That's all. It would be like someone stealing something from Berlin, driving through Rome on their way back to France and then the Roman Police went around and rounded up every French citizen they could find, stripped them of their possessions, and threw them in jail (and anyone who defended themselves was killed) (yes, I am aware that the route described makes no fucking sense, i'm an amurican i (clearly) don't know geography)

They didn't endanger Dalaran, I never claimed that. They abused the neutrality to help the Horde. Been said several times.

[mistuhbull]

Aethas isn't Horde. He wasn't even considered part of the Blood Elf hierarchy when he went to Theron for help against Malygos. They considered him an outsider because of his position in the Kirin Tor.

and because he did nothing to support Kael when Garithos had him imprisoned. Aethas put the Kirin Tor above his own prince.

[Deleted]

Aethas isn't Horde. He wasn't even considered part of the Blood Elf hierarchy when he went to Theron for help against Malygos. They considered him an outsider because of his position in the Kirin Tor.

Aethas is Sunreaver. Sunreavers are Horde, right? I mean maybe the Horde doesn't like him, but he's still part of it.

[mistuhbull]

They didn't endanger Dalaran, I never claimed that. They abused the neutrality to help the Horde. Been said several times.

What neutrality? The neutrality when the leader of the Kirin Tor is blatantly helping the Alliance against the Horde? Jaina betrayed the neutrality of the Kirin Tor when she personally worked to get the Bell for the Alliance and prevent the Horde from having it.

[Aquamonkey]

Aethas is Sunreaver. Sunreavers are Horde, right? I mean maybe the Horde doesn't like him, but he's still part of it.

Aethas is Kirin Tor. It says so in his faction tag, since always.

[DFu4ever]

Aethas is Sunreaver. Sunreavers are Horde, right?

Actually, no. Nor are the Silver Covenant Alliance. Both the Sunreavers and Silver Covenant are subfactions of the Kirin Tor. Both do tend to represent the interests of the Horde/Alliance, though, but neither are to break neutrality as they are a part of the greater Kirin Tor.