So now that you've had time to gather your thoughts...

[Meledelion]

Yea sure, but there's a reason why I broke it down to the level of actions since things to do are considered actions.

[aevitas]

PvE is Dungeons and raids which pretty much any mmo has more of...

Should have added "in my opinion".

Even filling a map with 300 monsters and no quests or events is called PvE.

[Kelimbror]

Yea sure, but there's a reason why I broke it down to the level of actions since things to do are considered actions.

Unless your reason was to dismiss this game as being nothing too, there really wasn't a reason. Deconstruction is by nature, deconstructive. I could relegate everything down to it's literal standards and we'd all kill ourselves. It's like the nihilist way of arguing semantics.

I already said 800 posts back that some of these systems are artificial, but it's the distinction that actually does make a difference. It's rules that make a difference in a game. Solitaire is not the same as Spider Solitaire. You can say, well you're still matching colors and numbers by yourself...but even a game as simple as that is changed by rules. I think it's hilarious that everyone who wants to argue with me wants to overlook how the one act leads to many...it's like you want me to write out exactly how WoW has 100 more things to do in the game than this one.

Sorry, but that would give way for people who actually don't give a shit about being respectable and liking this game as well as others a window to come crap everywhere. You can disagree all you want, it doesn't change that having multiple activities that tie into each other and other aspects of the game is vastly different than having a handful of activities that stand on their own and then are finished.

It's also scary how abhorrent people find the prospect of this game diversifying. And I thought SWTOR apologists were a cult eek!

[Meledelion]

Sorry, but that would give way for people who actually don't give a shit about being respectable and liking this game as well as others a window to come crap everywhere. You can disagree all you want, it doesn't change that having multiple activities that tie into each other and other aspects of the game is vastly different than having a handful of activities that stand on their own and then are finished.

From your example, activity, singular: Fishing. Everything else is passive.
A better example over spider solitaire vs normal solitaire (you're doing 2things in one and 1 in the other)
would be playing hearts for 8 rounds (and nobody busting) vs playing it till you win and having a screen pop up saying "Zomg you're amasing, you won!"

Activity is by definition actively doing something. Getting rep/mounts/... are things you gain from it = passive.

If you say there aren't enough reasons/incentives to do the content I can agree but saying the content isn't there to begin with is just flawed.

[Kelimbror]

If you say there aren't enough reasons/incentives to do the content I can agree but saying the content isn't there to begin with is just flawed.

Since you want a game vs game comparison, even though I have specifically stated I'm not trying to do that, please outline the activities by your definition so we can see exactly how there is equal or more content in GW2. Oh right, it's not flawed...it's accurate so it can't be done. I can't even name one thing in GW2 that can't be done in WoW other than jumping puzzles. Everything else is a variation on something you can do in another game.

And since it's the activity that matters (which is wrong) and not the framework/motive/reward for the activities, vistas and any exploration can also be done in WoW. So let me just clear that up before you start. You can take all night, I won't look back here until the morning. I don't really expect much results. It's terrible that you are pushing me into bringing up the game, when I'm not even trying to go there.

[Meledelion]

1.
Since you want a game vs game comparison, even though I have specifically stated I'm not trying to do that, please outline the activities by your definition so we can see exactly how there is equal or more content in GW2. Oh right, it's not flawed...it's accurate so it can't be done.
2.
I can't even name one thing in GW2 that can't be done in WoW other than jumping puzzles. Everything else is a variation on something you can do in another game.

3.
And since it's the activity that matters (which is wrong) and not the framework/motive/reward for the activities, vistas and any exploration can also be done in WoW. So let me just clear that up before you start. You can take all night, I won't look back here until the morning. I don't really expect much results. It's terrible that you are pushing me into bringing up the game, when I'm not even trying to go there.

1.
Since you don't want to prove it I have to disprove it?
Fine going with your fishing logic => chopping wood.
2.
You can't name 1 activity that's in WoW that isn't in GW2 either.
As I've stated before grinding: rep/mounts/... aren't new activities. They are the results of another activity.
3.
So you're saying that if I'd get a title for having mined 500 000ori ore I all of a sudden added another activity?

[Deleted]

It may take you some time to get a full set of exotic/ascended gear but once you do that’s it, with WoW you are continually upgrading you're gear when the new tier is released or a new faction is added. You simply don’t have close to the same vertical gear progression in GW2 which makes it very accessible even if you don’t play daily.

Ascended back and rings yes those pieces might take some time to get, a full set of exotics however is easy since you find them from several diffrent sources either from karma/dungeon vendors, crafted, bought from TP or plain lucky drops, certain cosmetic looks on them could potentially take alot of time though.

[Kelimbror]

You can't name 1 activity that's in WoW that isn't in GW2 either

Pet Battles
Farms
Archaeology
Scenarios
Raids
Dueling
Fishing

I just named 7. Now please stop trying to get the thread locked, because it's getting absurd. The whole point I have reiterated several times. Closing your eyes and wishing it away doesn't actually work. Guild Wars has less activities, less obtainable goals, and overall less content than most games.

For like, the hundredth time: This Doesn't Make It A Bad or Worse Game, Just Different.

AND

It has room to grow into new content avenues within it's current structure. To keep Fencers' sanity, I won't respond to your baiting anymore.

[Maarius]

Pet Battles
Farms
Archaeology
Scenarios
Raids
Dueling
Fishing

I just named 7. Now please stop trying to get the thread locked, because it's getting absurd. The whole point I have reiterated several times. Closing your eyes and wishing it away doesn't actually work. Guild Wars has less activities, less obtainable goals, and overall less content than most games.

For like, the hundredth time: This Doesn't Make It A Bad or Worse Game, Just Different.

AND

It has room to grow into new content avenues within it's current structure. To keep Fencers' sanity, I won't respond to your baiting anymore.

I, again, agree with you. WoW had more than enough time to strengthen the core game - the phase where GW2 is at the moment. This is important. As much as I wished that GW2 had those features (30 minigames, pet battles, a significant home instance,...) from the start, I guess we would have been waiting for release still. Anet decided that they release a game where the core content is working (and it's working fine mostly, I love playing the game, even though I'm 80 for months) - which meant that they delayed the "optional" features. Delay doesn't mean scrapped.

talking about this list:
Farms
Archaeology
Scenarios
Raids
Dueling
Fishing

The bold ones are from (paid) expansion-packs. Never heard of farms, Archeology is from last year if I'm right and Scenarios are new. WoW was released in 2004, so it took them about 8-9 years to implement those features.

There are priorities. Yes, small things ARE very important, but core things come first. I'm looking forward for those small things definitely. Archeology could be so much better implemented in GW2 with the exploration gameplay in mind.

[Drakhar]

PvE is Dungeons and raids which pretty much any mmo has more of...

*sigh* the WoW generation...

The destroyers of all that was good about MMORPGs...

[Kelimbror]

There are priorities. Yes, small things ARE very important, but core things come first. I'm looking forward for those small things definitely. Archeology could be so much better implemented in GW2 with the exploration gameplay in mind.

I agree with you. That's the whole point of where this started from. Me saying that the current version of the game isn't enough for me, which is opinionated. I just don't like when people try to word their way around facts and wind up stating things that just aren't true. I didn't feel like I really needed to delve into the game comparison territory, though people here clearly want to.

Apparently it's a crime to say that GW2 currently isn't enough to make you play it over other games, but here's exactly what you would come back for and how they could do it...Even while praising the game. I thought other subforums were bad, but I guess I shouldn't let one person speak for a whole community.

[Karizee]

Pet Battles
Farms
Archaeology
Scenarios
Raids
Dueling
Fishing

I just named 7. Now please stop trying to get the thread locked, because it's getting absurd. The whole point I have reiterated several times. Closing your eyes and wishing it away doesn't actually work. Guild Wars has less activities, less obtainable goals, and overall less content than most games.

For like, the hundredth time: This Doesn't Make It A Bad or Worse Game, Just Different.

AND

It has room to grow into new content avenues within it's current structure. To keep Fencers' sanity, I won't respond to your baiting anymore.

But things it does have that WoW doesn't:

Costume Brawl
Jumping Puzzles
WvWvW
Keg Brawl
Mini-dungeons
Synch dancing!

Not too shabby for a fresh MMO only 4.5 months out of the gate. And more is coming, each and every month.

[Kelimbror]

But things it does have that WoW doesn't:

Costume Brawl
Jumping Puzzles
WvWvW
Keg Brawl
Mini-dungeons
Synch dancing!

Not too shabby for a fresh MMO only 4.5 months out of the gate. And more is coming, each and every month.

Yeah but see, the person who had aproblem with it had very specific defintions of 'activities'. So dancing is dancing, which other games have. Keg brawl and WvWvW is PvP which other games have. Mini-dungeons, if it's just with a fewer number of people are equatable to scenarios I guess, but if not then those are the same as dungeons. Costume brawl is a holiday event/minigame which other games have.

So you are left with jumping puzzles, which I already said was the only thing it has that other games dont. And I freaking love them. I would agree with you that those things are unique with my definition of what content/activities are in an MMO, but apparently we are wrong for thinking that.

[Karizee]

Yeah but see, the person who had aproblem with it had very specific defintions of 'activities'. So dancing is dancing, which other games have. Keg brawl and WvWvW is PvP which other games have. Mini-dungeons, if it's just with a fewer number of people are equatable to scenarios I guess, but if not then those are the same as dungeons. Costume brawl is a holiday event/minigame which other games have.

So you are left with jumping puzzles, which I already said was the only thing it has that other games dont. And I freaking love them. I would agree with you that those things are unique with my definition of what content/activities are in an MMO, but apparently we are wrong for thinking that.

If you want to reduce things to the lowest common denominator then fishing becomes gathering, raids become dungeons, scenarios become dungeons, etc.

Keg Brawl is a pvp activity but since you are not using any of your profession's skills it's hard to say it's strictly pvp.

WvW compared to what? AV? WvW gives you a week long epic battle against 2 other servers with castles and towers and keeps and ballistas and trebuchets with strategy being the determining factor in who wins. WoW doesn't have anything like this. Not even close.

Mini dungeons are open and scalable, I've seen up to 25 people in a mini dungeon. Would you call that a raid?

Costume Brawl is year round. This feature was launched with a holiday event, but if you go to any events with large numbers of players (like the dragon events for instance) you'll see plenty of costume brawl being played. Again, you are not using your toon's normal abilities, in the case of costume brawl you are using the abilities of the costume weapon you have equipped or the tonic you have consumed so difficult to call this strictly pvp even though it is a pvp-type activity.

Using that logic, there are only 2 activities in any game - Pve or Pvp.

[Kelimbror]

If you want to reduce things to the lowest common denominator then fishing becomes gathering, raids become dungeons, scenarios become dungeons, etc.
*snip*
Using that logic, there are only 2 activities in any game - Pve or Pvp.

Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

This is what the previous person arguing with me stated, in trying to defend GW2 as not having less content. I tried to assert that the way things are implemented, whether artificial or not, are what determine what the content is to the player, regardless of what basic activity you find yourself doing. I was blasted out of the water repeatedly.

Technically there's only one activity in playing games: clicking buttons.

[Meledelion]

Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

This is what the previous person arguing with me stated, in trying to defend GW2 as not having less content. I tried to assert that the way things are implemented, whether artificial or not, are what determine what the content is to the player, regardless of what basic activity you find yourself doing. I was blasted out of the water repeatedly.

Technically there's only one activity in playing games: clicking buttons.

This is not what you were advocating at all. I numerously stated that saying there is less to do is wrong and that a good way to state it would be, there are less rewards for doing the same things in GW2.

As I've showed here

So basically it's sort of a jumping puzzle but with specific loot.
For the sake of the argument, let's say that karma gear didn't exist and instead you had to complete all JP's in orr to get a full setof that gear. From what I understand this would be what you are describing no?

Then I ask you what the difference is with a normal JP. You are doing the exact same thing the only difference is in GW2 you don't get that set...

(which got quoted again)

here

And I again tried to explain it here :

The only difference is that you get specific loot in rift for doing them and in GW2 you don't.
Your search for all items from your example can be seen as jumping puzzles in GW. If you do them all (gather them all in your example, where the hard part is also finding them) you get an achievement.
A good "counter" example is the JP in malchors leap where you need to collect 12orbs before you can open the chest, get loot and an achievement.

And yet again here

Kitty, it's not about what you get from doing X,Y or Z, it's what you do to get them.

And lastly here

If you say there aren't enough reasons/incentives to do the content I can agree but saying the content isn't there to begin with is just flawed.

[Kelimbror]

This is not what you were advocating at all. I numerously stated that saying there is less to do is wrong and that a good way to state it would be, there are less rewards for doing the same things in GW2.

Then I guess you don't understand writing, because it certainly was. Then you made it a case to say that the only thing that mattered was the 'activity' that was done.

I enter into the court Exhibit A:

Sigh, what are you actively doing?
Fishing. Only fishing.
Getting rep, mounts, titles, pets, achievement points, are all passives. You don't all of a sudden have "more to do" or are "doing more" you're doing 1thing fishing.
You don't get more content from having the possibility to get rep, mounts, titles, pets, achievement points.
The only difference is that there's another incentive to do that action.
So if you're asking for more rewards, you're not actually asking for more content.

See there? You just said that it was only the activity that matterd and nothing else. Not the rewards, not what was tied into it, just the literal activity. This is deconstruction. You have taken an entire system and reduced it to not even the sum of its parts, but one part. I mentioned several times how the entire framework or system matters, how things tie into other activities, but you want to focus on rewards. I guess you have a large problem with rewarding people for their effort and are happy just doing something for nothing. W/e.

Not to mention you haven't even responded to all the things I listed since you claimed I couldn't name 1 thing that was in WoW that wasn't in GW2. I named several. I then conceded (outside your realm of definition) that GW2 has their own unique activities. So you have to pick what definition you want, but both prove me to be true in the end. Taking up the forum space by quoting yourself over and over doesn't change that.

If you want to discuss this further, by all means send me a PM. I have already expressed my view on the subject of the thread and don't intend to continue dancing in circles with you.

[Meledelion]

I guess you have a large problem with rewarding people for their effort and are happy just doing something for nothing. W/e.

Not to mention you haven't even responded to all the things I listed since you claimed I couldn't name 1 thing that was in WoW that wasn't in GW2. I named several. I then conceded (outside your realm of definition) that GW2 has their own unique activities. So you have to pick what definition you want, but both prove me to be true in the end. Taking up the forum space by quoting yourself over and over doesn't change that.

I don't have any issues with rewarding people for their effort. I do have a problem with people saying that by adding a reward to something that requires an effort you all of a sudden created more content/things to do.

Things to do and content are activities. You can't do "a reputation" or "a mount" (technically you can if you're into that sort of thing) or "a title". The reason why I de-construct it is to show that there is only 1 activity going on and that everything else are results of that one activity.

An example:
If I say a car is moving it comes from the wheels and gears spinning and the fluids inside the engine exploding working.
According to your definition all the listed components are doing activities, which is a not true. The only component that is doing something (an activity) is the engine, this results in the gears and the wheels spinning. This doesn't mean that the passive parts aren't important, it simply means that they aren't actively doing something.

(the car moving = getting more achievements, the other parts are reputation, mini-pets,...)

I didn't respond to your list for the simple reason that someone else already expressed the same opinion I have being that the activity of the things you listed are the same as in GW2.

Pet Battles=Costume battles =>PvP
Farms=harvesting => Gathering
Archaeology=poi => Exploring/Gathering
Scenarios=personal story => Questing
Raids= bigger dungeons => "Dungeoning"
Dueling=private match in sPvP => PvP
Fishing=logging => Gathering

An easy and fast way to have stopped this discussion ages ago would've been to answer my first question:
"You seem to think that adding an achievement for having mined 5k orichalcum ore and you getting a diamond mining pick and a title (master miner for all I care) and a random chance to get a 25slot bag from mining ori would mean you now have 4things to do?"

So if you can say what you think about that we can finally let it go since I can understand where you're coming from instead of trying to continuously explain where I'm coming from.

[Deleted]

no, I call that questing and WoW has way more of those than GW2 by a long margin... PvE is Dungeons and raids which pretty much any mmo has more of...

IMO, GW2's PvE content (minus the events/leveling zone events etc) is pretty bad due to there being none. I, like many others, got 100% map completion within a week or two, and grinded a full dungeon set out, got all exquisite jewelry etc etc.... Nothing else to do except grind the other crafting professions, grind for a legendary (bows looked terrible anyway) or sPvP which still has balance issues. My whole guild and friends list stopped playing because of this.

Shame really. Hopefully they re-vitalize it!

[Elgand]

I'm loving GW2, and don't feel I will run out of content for a good and long time. Fractals constantly increasing in difficulty, WvWvW being stupid fun, etc etc. This game does have content that is seen in other games. I enjoy it, because the devs have put their own unique twists on most if not all portions of their content.

Xenlol, you comment on how you think their is no content and you later show three different types of content that apparently didn't suit you. That doesn't mean there is "none", that means you didn't enjoy the content that they gave you. I love the legendary weapon routes, sPvP, and crafting. I also love the jumping puzzles, farming, and of course Fractals. Each day I log in and basically have to roll a die to see what I do that day, because there is just so many things that i want to do. Im at 82% world completion, working towards The Dreamer, and working towards Volcanus.

sPvP is probably my least favorite portion of GW2, not because im bad at it but because it feels like a very real grind and has nearly no reward for said grind. I can't use my weapons or gear from PvE in PvP (At least allow me to use the item skins, if not the stats), and vice-versa. But the primary reason I dislike it is lack of variety. There is only 1 game mode, and whoever thought that was a good idea should be tortured for a good and long time.