View Poll Results: Where do you stand?

Voters
108. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm American and I support America.

    41 37.96%
  • I'm American and I oppose America.

    13 12.04%
  • I'm European and I support my country and/or oppose the EU.

    28 25.93%
  • I'm European and I oppose my country and/or support the EU.

    14 12.96%
  • I'm of other nationality and I support my country.

    8 7.41%
  • I'm of another nationality and I oppose my country.

    4 3.70%
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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans
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    Patriotism and the Nation-State

    As you may have noticed, many liberals have been attacking the idea of patriotism. They argue that there is no logical reason to support the nation-state and that patriotism is "evil," because it promotes the idea that America is "better" than other countries. I'd like to take a few moments to express my views on the subject and then allow everyone here to voice their opinion as well.

    I support America because we are a right-wing country. America is not just a geographical landmass or a cultural group, America is an idea. Freedom, republican government, an armed populace and constitutionalism are at the forefront of this idea. America is the idea that everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed and fulfill the American Dream. I support America because I believe in this idea and I'm willing to fight for it if I must. Not every country in the world holds this is why I support the nation-state.

    What do you think, is patriotism "evil" and/or "illogical?" And do you believe there is any reason to support the nation-state system?
    Last edited by Nakura Chambers; 2013-01-05 at 07:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH8472 View Post
    Nakura Chambers make ME look like a pacifist with all of his war threads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Socialism is a form of subjugation. The United States, via Hollywood, is glorifying socialism and feeding it to the European masses as a form of subjugation. We got sick and tired of Europe fighting World Wars. This is how we put a stop to it. We turn Europe into American colonies by making them think socialism is the superior political system.

  2. #2
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    What is patriotism?

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  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten Kasierith's Avatar
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    The problem with patriotism is that ultimately, America was not founded on a singular set of ideals. The Founding Fathers were an extremely diverse bunch, something that makes their ability to form the US government a quite extraordinary feat. Saying that any single set of ideals fits all of their views is fairly inaccurate. You also have to remember that other people have their own image of what America means.

    It's also interesting that one of the few concepts that the Founding Fathers in general agreed on was a complete lack of interaction with foreign governments (to varying degrees, of course). If the US did not choose to break out of this, however, the country would have never grown as powerful as it is today.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    I don't think patriotism is a bad thing, I think if you believe in your country and are proud of it, there's no shame in expressing your pride. But I do feel like there is a fine line between being proud of your own country, and a misplaced sense of superiority to others, myself, I try to be proud of my country, but at the same time I know that we are not perfect, and there is always room to improve, we should always be willing to find places to improve ourselves and move on as a nation, and sometimes that means identifying things about ourselves we don't like to admit.

    But that's ok, every country has its strengths and weaknesses, we should celebrate the good and do away with the bad where possible

  5. #5
    Why would you think that support for the European Union would go hand in hand with opposition to one's own country?
    Last edited by iscalio; 2013-01-05 at 07:27 PM.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    The problem with patriotism is that ultimately, America was not founded on a singular set of ideals. The Founding Fathers were an extremely diverse bunch, something that makes their ability to form the US government a quite extraordinary feat. Saying that any single set of ideals fits all of their views is fairly inaccurate. You also have to remember that other people have their own image of what America means.

    It's also interesting that one of the few concepts that the Founding Fathers in general agreed on was a complete lack of interaction with foreign governments (to varying degrees, of course). If the US did not choose to break out of this, however, the country would have never grown as powerful as it is today.
    The Founding Fathers may have disagreed on some things, but there was and is a single unifying ideology behind it, classical liberalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH8472 View Post
    Nakura Chambers make ME look like a pacifist with all of his war threads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Socialism is a form of subjugation. The United States, via Hollywood, is glorifying socialism and feeding it to the European masses as a form of subjugation. We got sick and tired of Europe fighting World Wars. This is how we put a stop to it. We turn Europe into American colonies by making them think socialism is the superior political system.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
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    I'm an American and I support what is American. That being said, America is rapidly becoming very un-American.
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  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Garnier Fructis's Avatar
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    Your poll options are too black and white. There's a sliding scale of support, and I fall more on the side of not supporting us going around everywhere and policing the globe. Hence, I chose "oppose." That's not to say I hate America, I like it here. I just don't like our foreign policy.
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  9. #9
    Fluffy Kitten Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swazi Spring View Post
    The Founding Fathers may have disagreed on some things, but there was and is a single unifying ideology behind it, classical liberalism.
    Generally true, but to varying degrees, and there are a few that could be considered outside of this spectrum... but I believe the last part of my post addressed this. Classical liberalism and the ability of America to progress the way it did in the 20th century are mutually exclusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    I'm an American and I support what is American. That being said, America is rapidly becoming very un-American.
    So only your America matters and no one else's America?

  10. #10
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    A few things.

    First off, no. What 'many liberals' decry is blind nationalism; i.e. following your country to the point of ignoring its flaws, not questioning its actions, and not acknowledging that the value of things in various cultures is relative and not absolute.

    Secondly, the United States was excessively 'left wing' at its foundation; the notion of a purely democratic republic on such a large scale was unthinkable for most intellectuals of the period, and it was theorized the infant American Republic would collapse into anarchy in short order. Given that the field between right and left wing has changed and even currently is poorly defined, saying America is a 'right wing' country is foolish in the extreme.

    Thirdly, the American Dream has never been a reality for any but a small minority of white protestants. What you decry as liberalism and socialism is in fact an attempt to extend the opportunity of the white-picket surburban household to people of all races and creeds.

    I think you're very confused as to what 'patriotism' means in this context, versus nationalism. You are extolling the latter.

    ----

    Now, for the next argument. It has been argued that the nation-state is probably the most stable form of state; this is true to an extent. After all, a country that is linguistically, religiously, and ethnically homogeneous has less to gripe about, right? False. There have been a number of situations in history where people of relatively similar ethno-religious and linguistic background go to war for a variety of reasons; the Greek Civil War, is one example.

    What makes the nation-state 'superior' is the ease of proliferating what is called the National Paradigm; that cultural element which binds the people of the country together and creates a sense of loyalty to government and to commonwealth. In France it is liberty, equality, and fraternity; in the United Kingdom it is the appeal to traditional liberties, and in Austria-Hungary it was benign universal imperialism (while it lasted). Nationalism is more often than not subversive of this paradigm, as it encourages loyalty to your particular ethnicity or what have you over the interests of the general good.

    If you want an example of the triumph of nationalism, look at the Balkans.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
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  11. #11
    Mechagnome Alakir the Windlord's Avatar
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    Why can't I support both my country and the EU?

  12. #12
    Dreadlord Damsbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iscalio View Post
    Why would you think that support for the European Union would go hand in hand with opposition to one's own country?
    This. I also thought this.
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  13. #13
    Hmm. Swazi Spring posting another "liberals are bad, conservatives are superior" thread. Honestly, patriotism is ok. It's fine to love your country. I am an American and love my country, but absolutely hate the federal government and their acceptance of bribes from special interests. Oh, sorry, I mean "campaign contributions".

    Both democrats and republicans, and anyone who calls themselves such, are infuriating beyond reason.

    America is fine, the government needs to fuck off. I did get a good laugh at the stupidity of Behner's Speaker of the House acceptance speech. Because the majority of the beginning of his speech is absolutely nothing like what the American government actually is.

  14. #14
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    So only your America matters and no one else's America?
    That's pretty much the mantra of many people here these days :|
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
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    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  15. #15
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pachycrocuta View Post
    Hmm. Swazi Spring posting another "liberals are bad, conservatives are superior" thread. Honestly, patriotism is ok. It's fine to love your country. I am an American and love my country, but absolutely hate the federal government and their acceptance of bribes from special interests. Oh, sorry, I mean "campaign contributions".

    Both democrats and republicans, and anyone who calls themselves such, are infuriating beyond reason.

    America is fine, the government needs to fuck off. I did get a good laugh at the stupidity of Behner's Speaker of the House acceptance speech. Because the majority of the beginning of his speech is absolutely nothing like what the American government actually is.
    Wut. I call myself a Democrat because that is the party to which I align.

    Nothing wrong with government. In fact, pretty much every problem with the current government is the result of the system's design. So blame the Founders.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  16. #16
    I'm a fairly patriotic person. I'm also pretty sure that the OP would consider me a bleeding heart liberal...

    I see nothing wrong with patriotism taken with enough doses of reason. Nationstate is a different topic however. A nation is a largely imaginary construct to begin with.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome larrakeyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iscalio View Post
    Why would you think that support for the European Union would go hand in hand with opposition to one's own country?
    Questions of competence. Either the EU or the country. People in the UK understand the problem.

  18. #18
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    I'm a fairly patriotic person. I'm also pretty sure that the OP would consider me a bleeding heart liberal...

    I see nothing wrong with patriotism taken with enough doses of reason. Nationstate is a different topic however. A nation is a largely imaginary construct to begin with.
    Is it bad that I don't feel any particular loyalty to one country over another, just Western Civilization in general?
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  19. #19
    I love America, but hate it's government. I believe this makes me a patriot.
    I sat alone in the dark one night, tuning in by remote.
    I found a preacher who spoke of the light, but there was Brimstone in his throat.
    He'd show me the way, according to him, in return for my personal check.
    I flipped my channel back to CNN and lit another cigarette.

  20. #20
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovm33 View Post
    I love America, but hate it's government. I believe this makes me a patriot.
    Typical. Elaborate exactly why you "hate" the Federal government.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

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