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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by peteypuff View Post
    5.2 is a perfect example, people already know that rogues will be overpowered in pvp again just like they were through all of cata. blizzard can talk about statistics all they want, common sense tells everyone who play pvp at a high level that rogues will need nerfs soon after 5.2. we also called it on warriors being overpowered to start mop. the players may not have every piece of data on every little part of the game, but those of us who are high rated play it enough to know when something is broken or going to be broken when it hits live from looking at patch notes. save this thread and my post if you want to go back after it hits live to see if i was wrong. both monks specs will also be really strong in pvp next patch as well but i wouldn't call for nerfs yet until i see some play from them on live.

    Rogues have many issues right now so some buffs are needed. You can tell based on loot in dungeons raids and even the rare boa items or holiday event stuff Blizzard really wants ppl to play rogues and the player base just doesn't seem to want to. Hell after saying they would never give one spec or class its own legendary for years they gave rogues dagers in DS that were one of the easiest ones to get. As soon as that bribe benefit was a thing of the past the rogue numbers dropped like a rock.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  2. #22
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by PvPnoob View Post
    Only keyboard turning Dragon slayers think this. That's why your numbers are often cut for the superior aspect of the game(PvP)
    no, not really. PvP was introduced in mid vanilla i believe it was

  3. #23
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PvPnoob View Post
    Only keyboard turning Dragon slayers think this. That's why your numbers are often cut for the superior aspect of the game(PvP)
    I hate to say it, but the person you replied to is right

    PvE and PvP are two entirely different worlds, and for all intents and purposes, blizzard is trying to merge the two which only leads to issues on either side.

    Why do I say merge?- well take items for instance, PvP items are now near enough as good as the equivalent ilvl PvE items, there's near enough 0 difference between them, but it only correlates for PvP into PvE settings, not with PvE into PvP settings.
    At the same time, they want PvE players to progress over time through the latest content to avoid it being completely ignored upon a new patch (at least that's what it looks like they want to do, with the release of 5.2 and so forth), while PvP players can sit back n' do the exact same thing they've always done and enjoy, doing PvP earning a minimum of 1 item per reset, and also more points per reset for upgrading purposes, in that sense PvP players can skip content in PvE later on in the expansion unless there's some for of early reset in the PvP season (speaking gear-wise).
    For as long as LFR have existed, PvP players have been having "free" access to PvE "raid" content (I say free access because they can skip every PvE related content prior to it), yet PvE players don't have the same access to say, Arena or Rbg's, because without the PvP stats prior to MoP on gear, they wouldn't last 5 seconds

    On top of this, while the main aspect of the game is in fact PvE related, blizzard is forcing themselves into issues when it comes to balancing classes due to wanting PvP and PvE being essentially the same game (which it isn't)
    A change on a class in terms of PvP balance can and does at times end up being a disaster in PvE relation, and visa versa.., and continuously I feel blizzard is somewhat ignoring that fact, but definitely not to the point where they are outright ignore the player base and the feedback that every player provides.

    Can the above ever be solved?

    I think it can, but it would call for a complete and utter separation of PvP and PvE in every aspect, and I feel it could be done with the current settings (stats) in the game, only it requires going back to the old talent systems n' improving them somewhat.

    Making a totally separate PvP tree which ideally should revolve around minor burst or mitigation options / choices that is improved in relation to the PvP powers (To avoid that tree being used for PvE content also), inherently leaving classes to rely solely on their own cc options etc, rather then cc / cc breaker options picked in a talent tree.
    PvP players could if they chose to, opt for a PvE spec, but that would mean losing out on the scaling of PvP powers.
    Choosing this spec means dps classes automatically get hit / exp capped

    In tern, PvE players could also opt for the PvP spec, but they would lose out on raid-wide talent choise etc etc, this would also mean that gear would need to be separated completely to avoid PvE players using the PvP tree and benefiting from the PvP power scaling.

    The gear separation is easy enough, simply move back to the ways of PvE gear with PvE stats, and PvP gear without PvE stats such as haste, crit n' mastery, PvP players could then focus on output, mitigation or try and balance those out between output vs survivability. (PvP powers scaling in context to the PvP talent tree)

    After all, why should either player base (PvP or PvE player base) have automatic access to everything, while the other doesn't`?
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2013-01-05 at 12:54 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiziana View Post
    no, not really. PvP was introduced in mid vanilla i believe it was
    Pvp was there from the start battle grounds were added after the fact though.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  5. #25
    Pandaren Monk vep's Avatar
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    Because every single person has different views on what the game "needs".

    And 99% of them are wrong. Or at least don't know what would happen if only one thing gets changed.

    And the internet is mostly filled with people who go like "Nerf X class! 2 strong!"

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by PvPnoob View Post
    Only keyboard turning Dragon slayers think this. That's why your numbers are often cut for the superior aspect of the game(PvP)
    You it is opposite right?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PvPnoob View Post
    we end up being right and Blizzard being wrong. Why is this?
    Interesting observation, I wonder if you can substantiate that in any way.

    To answer the question: PvP balance is far more complex than PvE balance, and players generally have extremely short-sighted opinions and bad understanding of game mechanics and balance. Yes, also the "very high rated". Anyone who thinks he "knows the game" because he's very good at it and/or has been playing it for a very long time, is gravely mistaken.

    The ideas, expectations and demands of players are already very incompetent and short-sighted in PvE. It only gets worse in PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayhos View Post
    every video game has gamey aspects to it

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Pvp was there from the start battle grounds were added after the fact though.
    Im sure he meant pvp balance, since this is what this topic is about
    And he is right

  9. #29
    Listening != agreeing.

  10. #30
    Brewmaster Vayshan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PvPnoob View Post
    Whenever there is X problem in PvP or a potential to be Y problem in PvP, the playerbase(Often times very High rated) lets blizzard know. However, blizzard almost ALWAYS ignores us and 9 out of 10 times, we end up being right and Blizzard being wrong. Why is this?
    They already listen way too much to people. Besides... 9 out of 10 class nerfs are being done BECAUSE of pvp :/ You are just like all the whiners, spewing nonsense as facts and not backing up anything to support your claim.

  11. #31
    Bias, obviously. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that.

    And it's not only bias, it's ill-informed bias. Anecdotal "evidence" in lots of cases.

    Blizzard has a much more comprehensive set of data than any one player could hope to collect. They know how changing one thing will have a domino effect on others. Players do not consider the repercussions.

    Players would do well to start looking closer to home for a solution to these balance issues they find. I'd wager a large portion comes from being convinced you played 100% as well as you could have and still lost. When in reality you are more than likely nowhere near as good as you think you are and made plenty of mistakes.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by PvPnoob View Post
    Whenever there is X problem in PvP or a potential to be Y problem in PvP, the playerbase(Often times very High rated) lets blizzard know. However, blizzard almost ALWAYS ignores us and 9 out of 10 times, we end up being right and Blizzard being wrong. Why is this?
    You're oversimplifying the situation a bit. Just because a player is high rated and wants something changed that doesn't mean it's a good change. Also blizzard has to think about their whole player base not just the vocal 1%. It's not as easy as "ok warriors are way over represented, lets nerf their damage 10%."

  13. #33
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crymoar View Post
    Listening != agreeing.
    People tend to forget this part. Blizzard listen in on a great deal of things. A lot of people just refuse to admit that if their advice wasn't selected out of the millions of opinions on the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnowo View Post
    Because Blizzard listened to the community on several occasions and they got their ass handed to them. If you were around during the WotLK beta and launch, surely you will remember the DeathKnight disaster. It took Blizzard about one full expansion to repair the damage done by the players "feedback".

    Also, Blizzard knows more about their game and has more statistics about any aspect of it than the entire community combined. They know all about which spec is chosen most, what damage is average for a certain class, how many spells and abilities are used by most of the players and even which green item is the most popular by Female Dwarf Rogues in Winterspring during sunset.

    It is not only arrogant, but also insulting and disrespectful to even assume you, or any of the players in this community, knows more about the game than Blizzard does.

    Does that mean Blizzard makes no mistakes? No. They do. And they admit so on an almost daily basis. Does it mean the community is always wrong? Again, no. A lot of good points are made, bugs are found, issues are reported and problems are submitted. But the community of this game (at least a vocal minority) has become so obsessed, self-centered, entitled, bittered and angry at EVERY GOD DAMN THING is wrong in their opinion, that no matter what Blizzard does, they always end up being blamed for everything.
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by PvPnoob View Post
    Only keyboard turning Dragon slayers think this. That's why your numbers are often cut for the superior aspect of the game(PvP)
    Really hope you're joking. The amount of PVE content versus PVP content DOES in fact make up the majority of the game. The statement was true.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    Blizzard should listen to feedback, just not from the average player, only from the top players that know what's going on.
    I think so too.....
    Seriously, and here is why..
    Because then the whole ongoing QQ crap will finally come to an end. Because the entire game will come to an end.
    Just as an advice, next time think twice, post once. You won't get anywhere if you cannot discard your very own views and opinions, and change it to a broader attempt to better something.
    WoW is a game, and with that everything within the game is subject to selfish judgement. What 1000 players think is horrible, may therefore very well be received as perfect for 1000 other players.
    Something needs change. Unless it is a game bug. This is how it's usually boils down.
    Players play the game with a certain number set. In order for an imbalance to be validated there has to be a great deal of data gathered, to clearly confirm said imbalance.
    That data is not valuable as long as it was gathered from world top 100 or even top 500 players. It needs a much wider range.

    Example: If the top 50 guilds in the world can clear a new raid with not too much problems, the balance of the encounters seems okay.
    But if no other guild after them can clear the raid at all, no matter what, then apparently there is a balance problem. Then action has to be, and will be taken.
    Overall, lots of time went on down the road, until enough data was gathered.
    Changes will be made, and again data gathering to see if it's okay now. If it is, it stays at that. If it isn't quite there yet, adjustments happen.

    And this can be applied to PVP as well. There is the same procedure required.
    And the beauty of everything, the devil of the detail is..... What ever gets changed on a class or spec, effects the both sides. PVP and PVE.
    That small change in the PVP department could lead to devastating results on the PVE side.
    The only way out would be completely different spell sets and abilities for both, PVP and PVE.
    But that was said times and again why it will not happen. Blizzard doesn't want to overwhelm the player base, in particular new players, with a whole library of abilities.
    That's discouraging. And I agree.
    The most successful games, whether table top, or on the computer, are the ones that are rather simple.
    Hell even the most complicated game of all times has at it's base a very limited, very simple rule set. Chess.

    So, truth of the matter is.... Blizzard should never listen to the self proclaimed "hardcore" base. That's the safe path to problems and the death of the game as a whole.
    They need professional design teams, with an outstanding performance record in the game as well... They have that. Such people are on their payroll.

    For everyone else of us, part of the game is to overcome slight imbalances. To work with what the game has, and to strive to adjust. And to be patient.
    Every class I've played so far, has been through up's and down's. Sometimes it shined, sometimes it sucked.
    Well... That's the beauty of the game.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by nerfmagesffs View Post
    Im sure he meant pvp balance, since this is what this topic is about
    And he is right
    You may want to read the post and the one it is replying to. Seeing how when it, being pvp, was added isn't correct and if it is balance it certainly isn't correct. In almost no way was vanilla pvp balanced.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by PvPnoob View Post
    Whenever there is X problem in PvP or a potential to be Y problem in PvP, the playerbase(Often times very High rated) lets blizzard know. However, blizzard almost ALWAYS ignores us and 9 out of 10 times, we end up being right and Blizzard being wrong. Why is this?
    You mistake 'listen to' to 'do as I wan' I think. Blizz does listen but it cannot do what 10 million individuals want so it goes the way it wants to go as it is actually their game to develop

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord Viridiancity's Avatar
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    Because they're game developers and they know game design (As evidenced by World of Warcraft having a cult following that would make Scientology blush).

    The community are not game developers, and generally speaking, don't know shit.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woceip View Post
    Really hope you're joking. The amount of PVE content versus PVP content DOES in fact make up the majority of the game. The statement was true.
    thats not saying a hell of a lot tbh

    pvp doesnt revolve around "content' like pve does, pvp doesnt stop just because blizz hasnt released a new arena map or battleground

    pvp revolves around the constant change of classes and what we like to deem 'balance', which is impossible to obtain

    i guess you could say pvp revolves around the endless and unobtainable pursuit of "perfect balance", and the individual skill of a player (im not saying pve doesnt take skill) and how they can work in a team and adapt to human opponents who are also adapting to you

    what im getting at is that PvE revolves around new content patches, while PvP doesnt rely so much on new content (new bgs and arenas) but on how blizzard changes classes, so trying to compare PvE content to PvP content is utterly futile, pointless and nothing more than flame-bait
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombiebob
    I'm still waiting on someone to tell me where all these people that suddenly care about Warrior balance were during Cataclysm when they were blow up dolls with plate armor on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cutterx2202 View Post
    Stop complaining to solve your lack of ability, and start reading and practicing to gain ability. Stop trying to bring people down to your level instead of striving to raise yours.

  20. #40
    Epic!
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    As much as you may think is broken with the game does not mean you know what's best for the game. They are listening to your issues just not taking orders from players on how to fix them. I think game designers and developers have more understanding on how it all rolls than the player behind his screen.

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