Patriotism and the Nation-State

[Deleted]

Laws in the EU are like coats. One law, one coat. But this coat has to fit both the german, and the french, and the romanian, and the english. If it doesn't it's changed until it does and everyone agrees on it.

And therein lies one huge problem. Funding and Spending. How would everyone agree to this? I already know the UK was considering leaving the EU after Ireland went bust and again after Greece because "we don't want to spend our money on these people"

I know I wouldn't want to pay my taxes knowing it goes into a kraut banker's dirty pockets, despite the fact I adore the Germans as a people and visit them every year on holiday.

I love the Germans to pieces.. but they're still GERMAN, if you get me.

[Killingifrit]

As said, the states that joined did so voluntarily. You cannot have a stable political union if people are permitted to go back and forward willy-nilly; hence why secession is illegal in the United States.

oh please. it was a trade union at first and nobody signed up for this current version of political union. except the politicans, but they are not the people.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 11:00 PM ----------

Good. We could use another Western power bloc.

you seem like a very undemocratic person. very fit for the soviet union("eu"). and why another western power bloc? why not an eastern power block or southern? Are you racist?

[Deleted]

oh please. it was a trade union at first and nobody signed up for this current version of political union. except the politicans, but they are not the people.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 11:00 PM ----------


you seem like a very undemocratic person. very fit for the soviet union("eu"). and why another western power bloc? why not an eastern power block or southern? Are you racist?

Read the treaty of Rome, it was never about a simple trade agreement.

[Deleted]

you seem like a very undemocratic person. very fit for the soviet union("eu"). and why another western power bloc? why not an eastern power block or southern? Are you racist?

Because god damnit the taxes for trading between them would be INSANE!

Have you see the prices for trading EASTWARD?

[Arlon]

Read the treaty of Rome, it was never about a simple trade agreement.

And here lies the problem. How much did the politicians tell the people about the actual agreements? How many people have the capacity to even understand it in the first place?

Right or wrong, its fairly predictable that there will be backlash when shit hits the fan. Politicians need to bring unity and conway understanding to the people on where the country stands on such agreements, not make shady deals and promise rainbows.

[Deleted]

Dumb poll. So not being patriotic means you oppose a country? I oppose patriots and their stupid ways to boost their scrawny little egos. I also HATE nationalists and wouldn't mind at all if they just disappeared from this planet.


In the end, you are proud of your country because you originate from it. No, it's not for the "values" it stands for. Every country of earth stands for those "values". Some of them are more true towards them, however I don't see any German being proud of France, or an American being proud of Norway.


As for those who say "I love my country,but hate the government", please....who chose the government? And where do the members of the government come from, Uranus?

[Dezerte]

What kind of wiki have you looked at? Nationalism is blind devotion for your country, hating anything that isn't of your nationality, whereas patriotism is just love for your country and the want of supporting it.

Maybe I got it wrong then, I don't consider myself very knowledgeable about the two -isms.

[bufferunderrun]

where is the option " I'm European and I support both my country and the EU." ?

biased poll?

[Killingifrit]

Read the treaty of Rome, it was never about a simple trade agreement.

oh please. besides, the treaty of rome didnt exist before the steel union. and instead of telling me to read the treaty, tell me how the treaty of rome says it would become the current federal state European union.

[Deleted]

where is the option " I'm European and I support both my country and the EU." ?

biased poll?

You ask that question. Notice how it's either "you are either a patriot, or you oppose". There is no in between. Just black and white, like a patriot's head.

[Killingifrit]

What kind of wiki have you looked at? Nationalism is blind devotion for your country, hating anything that isn't of your nationality, whereas patriotism is just love for your country and the want of supporting it.

nationalism is not blind devotion, and certainly not hating anything that is not of your nationality. i am nationalist and i love "everybody". did i crush your hateful worldview now?

[Dezerte]

You ask that question. Notice how it's either "you are either a patriot, or you oppose". There is no in between. Just black and white, like a patriot's head.

It's why I didn't vote, nothing really fit.

[Deleted]

oh please. besides, the treaty of rome didnt exist before the steel union. and instead of telling me to read the treaty, tell me how the treaty of rome says it would become the current federal state European union.

From the text of the treaty:

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS,
THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY,
THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC,
THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC,
HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUCHESS OF LUXEMBOURG,
HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS,
DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of
Europe,
RESOLVED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common
action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
AFFIRMING as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the
living and working conditions of their peoples,
RECOGNISING that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in
order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,
ANXIOUS to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious
development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the
backwardness of the less favoured regions,
DESIRING to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive
abolition of restrictions on international trade,
INTENDING to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries
and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the
principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
RESOLVED by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and
liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in
their efforts,

The treaty also establishes the parliament, the comission, the council and the court of justice. Here is the full text if you are interested : http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/...ometreaty2.pdf

[Deleted]

And therein lies one huge problem. Funding and Spending. How would everyone agree to this? I already know the UK was considering leaving the EU after Ireland went bust and again after Greece because "we don't want to spend our money on these people"

I know I wouldn't want to pay my taxes knowing it goes into a kraut banker's dirty pockets, despite the fact I adore the Germans as a people and visit them every year on holiday.

I love the Germans to pieces.. but they're still GERMAN, if you get me.

How can everyone agree to this? The same as the parties in your parliament agree to your nation's budget. By compromise.

And yes, it is true that some nations, like Greece, are led by corrupt bastards. So what? You're telling me UK has no corrupt politicians, all your politicians are saints? Or will you tell me that when the greek people need you most for you to help them get rid of corrupt politicians that tricked them into being elected, you will abandon them because... they're greek?

And no, I don't get you, I'm sorry. Just because the germans are... german doesn't mean they're aliens. They're still humans and still think like regular humans. They just speak a different language. It doesn't mean german, greek, english people don't think the same. They do. They think based on education , both that from their schools and that from their parents. So we can agree that some english people think the same as some german people and some greek people and some do not. Just the same as not all english agree on many things. Because you're not the Borg from Star Trek to have one single mind.

The conclusion is simple. The greek, german, english etc people are all humans. They have the potential to think the same and only think different at an individual character. All people of UK, Greece, Germany etc don't think the same as their countrymen, they think different, individually. Some might agree with fellow countrymen, some might agree with people from other nations.

[Deleted]

Dumb poll. So not being patriotic means you oppose a country? I oppose patriots and their stupid ways to boost their scrawny little egos. I also HATE nationalists and wouldn't mind at all if they just disappeared from this planet.


In the end, you are proud of your country because you originate from it. No, it's not for the "values" it stands for. Every country of earth stands for those "values". Some of them are more true towards them, however I don't see any German being proud of France, or an American being proud of Norway.


As for those who say "I love my country,but hate the government", please....who chose the government? And where do the members of the government come from, Uranus?

Godammit, accidently deleted my post. Oh well, basically, patriotism to me is just appreciating your country's culture, language, nature, whatever. Being proud of your country is silly to me as well. Doesn't mean that I can't get inspired by my country, and besides, it's like celebrating birthdays - not really all that practical, but it's fun to be inspired by your country and sharing it. If it wasn't that patriotism meant devotion for one own's country, I would be a Norwegian, American, Finnish, Dutch patriot as well.

[Deleted]

The conclusion is simple. The greek, german, english etc people are all humans. They have the potential to think the same and only think different at an individual character. All people of UK, Greece, Germany etc don't think the same as their countrymen, they think different, individually. Some might agree with fellow countrymen, some might agree with people from other nations.

This is true, but old rivalries die hard.

Have you seen what it's like when England play Germany at football?

[Killingifrit]

From the text of the treaty:

The treaty also establishes the parliament, the comission, the council and the court of justice. Here is the full text if you are interested : http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/...ometreaty2.pdf

seems like a trade and economic union to me still. nothing about creating laws that are entirely unrelated to trade and economics or meddling in other countries´businesses.

[Deleted]

Godammit, accidently deleted my post. Oh well, basically, patriotism to me is just appreciating your country's culture, language, nature, whatever. Being proud of your country is silly to me as well. Doesn't mean that I can't get inspired by my country, and besides, it's like celebrating birthdays - not really all that practical, but it's fun to be inspired by your country and sharing it. If it wasn't that patriotism meant devotion for one own's country, I would be a Norwegian, American, Finnish, Dutch patriot as well.

I agree, but from what I see a lot of people let it affect their lives, and because of it they become biased when they have to deal with people that have other origins. But the type of patriotism you described is harmless, I agree. I myself believe it's fun to exchange cultural information with someone from another country, and I did it several times.

I also have nothing with patriots that criticize their country, which actually show that they care. Caring means voicing out the flaws and doing something against them, not wrapping yourself in some stupid flag, trying to sound heroic, proud and being a complete fool. Too bad that almost NOBODY does this.

For those that it transforms into a lifestyle, I can only say one thing: insanity. Wrap that flag around your waist, for you have nothing else to be proud of on this earth but your own meaningless origin.

[Deleted]

seems like a trade and economic union to me still. nothing about creating laws that are entirely unrelated to trade and economics or meddling in other countries´businesses.

"DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe" and the establishment of supranational institutions isn't enough of a clue?

[Deleted]

I agree, but from what I see a lot of people let it affect their lives, and because of it they become biased when they have to deal with people that have other origins. But the type of patriotism you described is harmless, I agree. I myself believe it's fun to exchange cultural information with someone from another country, and I did it several times.

For those that it transforms into a lifestyle, I can only say one thing: insanity. Wrap that flag around your waist, for you have nothing else to be proud of on this earth but your own meaningless origin.

My patriotism is kind of a lifestyle though. My patriotism inspired me to study space technology. Yes, a bit weird, but yeah. I think patriotism is harmless as long as you don't harm other people, but then it's just turned into nationalism anyway.

nationalism is not blind devotion, and certainly not hating anything that is not of your nationality. i am nationalist and i love "everybody". did i crush your hateful worldview now?

You believe multiculturalism is spread by a cult, and you're dead determined that the higher crime rate among immigrants is due to their culture. But sure, you love everybody just like every other closet racist. But you know this argument is just going to end up with you sulking about how everyone else is so manipulated by the system and nobody will care anyway, so let's end it here.