David Cameron on EU's future

[Deleted]

The UK can't compete with many EU products. The UK would hurt a hell of a lot more leaving the economic union than Europe would.

This is where I will need to disagree with most of the "pro EU" guys in the thread. IF we leave the EU but are allowed to remain in the free market (similar to Norway for instance) it would benefit both the UK and EU economies more than us staying and vetoing every plan we do not like. With the UK out of the way, it will give both France AND Germany more weight in pushing through tough fiscal policies for austerity along with giving the EU central bank more control over all of the EU's national banks, therefore preventing another crisis similar to the cause of the worlds current financial woes. I am not anti-EU, I just believe at this time it would work in both parties interests for us to move away from the front lines, and allow us to get our own house in order, so to speak.

There are a lot of petty comments flying around in this thread regarding "We need them more than they need us" etc, which most level headed people know not to be true. If the UK left the Eurozone entirely, with both sides taxing imports / exports it would destroy all economies in the EU not just the UK (as others have provided sources for.). I truely believe both sides stand to gain more by the UK leaving and not having such a vested interest in how the EU budget is set and spent. Hell, in a link I provided early, the plan seems to be that if the UK were to leave we would still pay into the budget for the next five to ten years anyway, without getting the subsideries back... I see it as a win win situation, as the UK get to remain distant from our Europeon cousins (lets be honest, culturely we do not have a lot in common other than centuries of fighting each other) and you guys get to call us names behind our backs in the Europeon parliament

[Zhangfei]

This is where I will need to disagree with most of the "pro EU" guys in the thread. IF we leave the EU but are allowed to remain in the free market (similar to Norway for instance) it would benefit both the UK and EU economies more than us staying and vetoing every plan we do not like. With the UK out of the way, it will give both France AND Germany more weight in pushing through tough fiscal policies for austerity along with giving the EU central bank more control over all of the EU's national banks, therefore preventing another crisis similar to the cause of the worlds current financial woes. I am not anti-EU, I just believe at this time it would work in both parties interests for us to move away from the front lines, and allow us to get our own house in order, so to speak.

There are a lot of petty comments flying around in this thread regarding "We need them more than they need us" etc, which most level headed people know not to be true. If the UK left the Eurozone entirely, with both sides taxing imports / exports it would destroy all economies in the EU not just the UK (as others have provided sources for.). I truely believe both sides stand to gain more by the UK leaving and not having such a vested interest in how the EU budget is set and spent. Hell, in a link I provided early, the plan seems to be that if the UK were to leave we would still pay into the budget for the next five to ten years anyway, without getting the subsideries back... I see it as a win win situation, as the UK get to remain distant from our Europeon cousins (lets be honest, culturely we do not have a lot in common other than centuries of fighting each other) and you guys get to call us names behind our backs in the Europeon parliament

Sorry, how is Britain NOT anything like Europe? We are pretty much a brilliant representation of what is European.

And no, the trades and tariffs being put back onto our goods would mean we were less competitive within the Eurozone. Cutting out of the world's biggest economy for some fiction of control would hammer us insanely, let alone make trade that much harder and having our citizens become less employable across the zone by rejecting Schengen.

[Deleted]

The UK can't compete with many EU products. The UK would hurt a hell of a lot more leaving the economic union than Europe would.

Again it isn't going to happen. You may be right, but even if you are the EU would be crippled too. Neither can exist without the other, which is why free trade isn't going away. However, that doesn't mean Britain needs to be dragged into becoming a part of a European Federation where we have to adopt societal policies too.

[Deleted]

Sorry, how is Britain NOT anything like Europe? We are pretty much a brilliant representation of what is European.

And no, the trades and tariffs being put back onto our goods would mean we were less competitive within the Eurozone. Cutting out of the world's biggest economy for some fiction of control would hammer us insanely, let alone make trade that much harder and having our citizens become less employable across the zone by rejecting Schengen.

This is where you seem to be getting confused. IF we left the EU WHY would we have to leave the common market? It benefits both sides, and any changes to this agreement would also effect BOTH SIDES. I agree if this was the route taken the UK would be a lot worse off, however so would the majority of the EU economies for the very same reason.

With regards to being "like Europe", can you provide examples of how our culture is similar to France, Germany, Spain or Italy? I have travelled around Europe extensivly with work and the closest I felt to home was Prague! Paris - nothing like the UK, Berlin - nothing like the UK, Rome - nothing like the UK, Madrid - nothing like the UK. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but I do not believe we share the same values as our continental neighbours in most day to day life situations.

[Zhangfei]

Again it isn't going to happen. You may be right, but even if you are the EU would be crippled too. Neither can exist without the other, which is why free trade isn't going away. However, that doesn't mean Britain needs to become dragged into becoming a part of a European Federation where we have to adopt societal policies too.

Possibly, but that's a much better path than constant devolution to pointlessly weak and tiny countries. The EU all together could be the beacon for the world, to compete with Russia, the USA and China.

And tariffs do not prevent free trade, they just make certain types of trade less appealling.

With regards to being "like Europe", can you provide examples of how our culture is similar to France, Germany, Spain or Italy? I have travelled around Europe extensivly with work and the closest I felt to home was Prague! Paris - nothing like the UK, Berlin - nothing like the UK, Rome - nothing like the UK, Madrid - nothing like the UK. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but I do not believe we share the same values as our continental neighbours in most day to day life situations.

How the hell is Paris like Berlin? Madrid like Zagreb?

European countries have a shared history (tick,) culture (broadly, tick,) inherited languages from the indo-european strain, pretty much similar politics and political systems. Are you telling me you're completely screwed in Paris? It's easy to get around and know even if you don't speak French (like me) because it just follows a typical Western mindset and layout.

Europe is an amalgam. It includes "Britishness" and Britishness is reflected by our proximity to Europe.

[Deleted]

Possibly, but that's a much better path than constant devolution to pointlessly weak and tiny countries. The EU all together could be the beacon for the world, to compete with Russia, the USA and China.

And tariffs do not prevent free trade, they just make certain types of trade less appealling.



How the hell is Paris like Berlin? Madrid like Zagreb?

European countries have a shared history (tick,) culture (broadly, tick,) inherited languages from the indo-european strain, pretty much similar politics and political systems. Are you telling me you're completely screwed in Paris? It's easy to get around and know even if you don't speak French (like me) because it just follows a typical Western mindset and layout.

Europe is an amalgam. It includes "Britishness" and Britishness is reflected by our proximity to Europe.

The Madrid / Paris comparison was essentially the point I was trying to make. Just because we are all "reletively close" proximity wise, our rag tag bunch of countries making up the UK do not share much culturally other than centuries of warfare against each other. As stated, this is not a bad thing in my eyes as this amalgam (as you put it) makes the EU stronger together compared to the individual parts. My view however, is the the UK's culture is "too" different to the rest of the EU, hence more conflict when trying to make decisions that affect the EU as a whole. The UK is too fiercly independant to look at the bigger picture of how the farming / fishing subsideries (for example) make the EU an even playing field for all of its member nations. We see these things as personal slights against us and this is why the EU will never work with the UK as a major player. If we step aside, retaining access to the common market, both the EU and UK will grow stronger.

[Zhangfei]

The Madrid / Paris comparison was essentially the point I was trying to make. Just because we are all "reletively close" proximity wise, our rag tag bunch of countries making up the UK do not share much culturally other than centuries of warfare against each other. As stated, this is not a bad thing in my eyes as this amalgam (as you put it) makes the EU stronger together compared to the individual parts. My view however, is the the UK's culture is "too" different to the rest of the EU, hence more conflict when trying to make decisions that affect the EU as a whole. The UK is too fiercly independant to look at the bigger picture of how the farming / fishing subsideries (for example) make the EU an even playing field for all of its member nations. We see these things as personal slights against us and this is why the EU will never work with the UK as a major player. If we step aside, retaining access to the common market, both the EU and UK will grow stronger.

I simply do not get your argument. What makes the UK "more" different to France than, say, France and Germany? If anything I'd say we're REALLY similar to the Germans in many ways and share a large amount of French culture because we've adopted it multiple times.

Why does the UK stand out? I cannot, objectively, see why. It's just nationalism. We can share and trade just like every other human on the planet. We're not unique butterflies.

[Deleted]

I simply do not get your argument. What makes the UK "more" different to France than, say, France and Germany? If anything I'd say we're REALLY similar to the Germans in many ways and share a large amount of French culture because we've adopted it multiple times.

Why does the UK stand out? I cannot, objectively, see why. It's just nationalism. We can share and trade just like every other human on the planet. We're not unique butterflies.

It's ok, I cannot seem to get my opinion across in a fashion I would like tonight - too tired ><.

You are correct regarding nationalism, the UK (due to the Island mentality) in my view just doesnt share common values with continental Europe. Most of the EU work directives regarding legal working hours / holiday entitlment etc have an "opt out" clause in UK law becase they do not fit with how we (as a majority) work. It is differences like this which I belive mean the UK could not truely adapt to fit in to the "Europeon" mould, and hence all of the issues with any legislation getting passed in the Europeon parliament takes too long. The UK will veto anything that has too large of an effect on us, regardless of what it means to other nations so I truely I belive both parties would be stronger by seperating.

[Zhangfei]

It's ok, I cannot seem to get my opinion across in a fashion I would like tonight - too tired ><.

You are correct regarding nationalism, the UK (due to the Island mentality) in my view just doesnt share common values with continental Europe. Most of the EU work directives regarding legal working hours / holiday entitlment etc have an "opt out" clause in UK law becase they do not fit with how we (as a majority) work. Is is differences like this which I belive mean the UK could not truely adapt to fit in to the "Europeon" mould, and hence all of the issues with any legislation getting passed in the Europeon parliament takes too long.

But we always had similar laws about legal working hours and entitlements, we just don't agree perhaps with the extent. That's not quite like saying we're as similar to Europe as, say, Bolivia or Myanmar which are truly different and alien cultures.

I'd say we share 95% of our values with mainland Europe. Hell, our NHS pretty much shaped most of the Western world's approach to healthcare!

[Deleted]

I simply do not get your argument. What makes the UK "more" different to France than, say, France and Germany? If anything I'd say we're REALLY similar to the Germans in many ways and share a large amount of French culture because we've adopted it multiple times.

Why does the UK stand out? I cannot, objectively, see why. It's just nationalism. We can share and trade just like every other human on the planet. We're not unique butterflies.

i would say the UK is more right wing than most of western Europe, tahts probably the biggest difference. but i garee with what you're saying, i would rather see the UK stay in the union

[Tradewind]

I liked Aliens and Avatar as much as the next guy but what does this guy have to do with the future of the EU?

[Wikiy]

And here we have the essence of the problem. The minnows of the EU are too interested in having some kind of "world power" for it to be feasible. What the fuck is "world power" anyway? Being able to drop nukes? Being an important trading partner? The UK can do both of those perfectly well without surrendering sovereignty. China isn't going to come and take over, neither is India, nor Brazil, nor Russia.

I see absolutely no reason for the UK to sacrifice itself to the dogma of the EU just so some minuscule countries can join in and claim to have "world power".

It's in the interest of some of us to have the European way of dealing with international crises (as opposed to the American way) be implemented a bit more and the only way that's happening if the EU adopts a common foreign policy.

I'm obviously aware most Europeans consider this to be a pretty crazy idea, but I for one fully support a federate European Union. I can't quite comprehend not supporting it but then again I'm a 17 year old futurist and idealist who wouldn't mind if the entire world united into one country eventually so I guess my opinion means very little.

The funny thing is, my country isn't even a member of the EU therefor I'm not even a citizen of the EU yet (although i will be in half a year) and my European identity is considerably stronger than my national (Croatian) one. Some of the anti-EU people would have everyone believe I'm the classical EU drone that's a result of EU propaganda. I'd call myself a result of globalization.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 02:01 AM ----------

See I heard about Germany being dragged down because it had to pay for other countries, as a result it suffered due to that. I dont really want the UK to go down that road, but at the same time I think we still need the easy trade and the alliance the EU offers. Really not to sure what to think about the EU yet, its a complicated matter.

Germany is prospering despite the fact they're essentially the European Red Cross.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 02:08 AM ----------

With regards to being "like Europe", can you provide examples of how our culture is similar to France, Germany, Spain or Italy? I have travelled around Europe extensivly with work and the closest I felt to home was Prague! Paris - nothing like the UK, Berlin - nothing like the UK, Rome - nothing like the UK, Madrid - nothing like the UK. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but I do not believe we share the same values as our continental neighbours in most day to day life situations.

And France, Germany, Spain and Italy are mutually less different than any one of them is different from the UK?

Yeah, your argument makes no point. British culture is just one of the 50 cultures Europe has. Deal with it.

[Letmesleep]

It's ok, I cannot seem to get my opinion across in a fashion I would like tonight - too tired ><.

You are correct regarding nationalism, the UK (due to the Island mentality) in my view just doesnt share common values with continental Europe. Most of the EU work directives regarding legal working hours / holiday entitlment etc have an "opt out" clause in UK law becase they do not fit with how we (as a majority) work. It is differences like this which I belive mean the UK could not truely adapt to fit in to the "Europeon" mould, and hence all of the issues with any legislation getting passed in the Europeon parliament takes too long. The UK will veto anything that has too large of an effect on us, regardless of what it means to other nations so I truely I belive both parties would be stronger by seperating.

As an American, I don't have anything particular to add to this thread, I just wanted to say posts like this are interesting to me. Most nation threads seemingly get focused on America, so there's a real void of information regarding Europe (which is ironic since the majority of posters here are European).

I enjoy reading Europeans' opinion on Europe, particularly EU members discussing how their nations effect each other. I read the Economist so I get some idea of what's going on over there, but I like to hear opinions from the average citizen.

[Wikiy]

Most nation threads seemingly get focused on America, so there's a real void of information regarding Europe (which is ironic since the majority of posters here are European).

That's kind of because both a lot of Europeans and Americans here are ignorant about the fact that 2/3 of all posters are European.

I for one wouldn't mind seeing more posts on Europe but I fear there would be way too much EU bashing for me to take any enjoyment from the discussions. It'll be pretty interesting when the EU becomes a federation (well, it's my opinion that that's going to happen) at which point you'll have like half of the posters here be as patriotic towards the EU as Americans are towards the US and then another half that will be completely trashing and bashing it like they are now (i mean Europeans bashing the EU, not Americans bashing the US).

Fortunately (or unfortunately?), we don't have rules against bashing confederations, but yeah, if the day the EU becomes a federation comes, the nation bashing rules will apply to it so it will be pretty fun to watch. That is, if this site survives for 30 years (which is my personal based-on-very-little assumption on when it's gonna happen) which is entirely unpredictable 'cause after all, this is the internet.

[Letmesleep]

That is, if this site survives for 30 years (which is my personal based-on-very-little assumption on when it's gonna happen) which is entirely unpredictable 'cause after all, this is the internet.

I'd suspect it would take a long time as well. (Truly) no offense intended, but the EU seemed like a bad idea to me. The reason it seemed like a bad idea is most people rightfully don't want to give up sovereignty. I'm of the opinion that the smaller something is, the easier it is to manage. I think multiculturalism is great, but European countries have been around forever; trying to blend them together now seems like something the average citizen would inherently reject. You can accept and appreciate other cultures without having to be them. If I was a European, I would probably be apprehensive about the whole thing.

Should all the kinks be worked out, I think the EU would increase it's member's power on the global scale, but it just seems too hard to manage at this point. The US worked because it was a new country; Europe has history, traditions, and individual cultural identities that seem too difficult to break down at this point to have an effective government that represents all of the various nations the way they could if they self-govern. I dunno, how accurate are these ideas? I really don't know and I'm interested in your opinion. I hope this doesn't come off as bashing because that's really far from my intent.

[Deleted]

I'm of the opinion that the smaller something is, the easier it is to manage

an effective government that represents all of the various nations the way they could if they self-govern.

This is why countries have administrative divisions beyond the central government, different places have different problems and local administrative divisions are better aware and equiped to solve them, deeper EU integration would in no way change this.

I think multiculturalism is great, but European countries have been around forever; trying to blend them together now seems like something the average citizen would inherently reject. You can accept and appreciate other cultures without having to be them. If I was a European, I would probably be apprehensive about the whole thing.

We aren't exactly a group of tribes with crazy rituals, beyond food and language (which will never go away) we don't exactly have anything to lose. Political and economic integration also don't translate into forced loss of your cultural heritage.

[Kivimetsan]

Would love it if we left.

Romania and Bulgaria incoming... Brilliant. Just what we need.

Yeah this just irritates me. Like looking at it from an economic perspective, I just cannot fathom how they believe a single currency is right for a country as powerful as Germany, can also be right for a country like Bulgaria. You have to be kidding me.

Iv accepted the fact that the economic leaders in the Euro are complete morons and that's enough reason for any sane person not to want to be apart of it.

[Wikiy]

I'd suspect it would take a long time as well. (Truly) no offense intended, but the EU seemed like a bad idea to me.

It was an awesome idea at the start, all Europeans (well, a vast majority) agree with that, some just don't think it's necessary right now. I don't agree with them though. Well, not that I think it's necessary, I just think it would be a very bad idea to not keep the EU around.

The reason it seemed like a bad idea is most people rightfully don't want to give up sovereignty.

It depends on how much they associate with whom they're handing their sovereignty over to. As I've said, the European identity is stronger in me than the Croatian one so I'd have absolutely no problems having Croatia give up some of its sovereignty. From my point of view, there's absolutely nothing that's lost in total. Maybe the loss of sovereignty will result in situations where some things wont be in the interest of Croatia but that really doesn't bother me at all because I associate with the EU deeply and I'd know others in the EU would benefit in some way in such situations. It's also in the interest of European integration to take some sovereignty away. You can't govern a body where everyone does whatever the hell they want. That's what led to the crisis in Europe.

I think multiculturalism is great, but European countries have been around forever; trying to blend them together now seems like something the average citizen would inherently reject.

And they do reject it. The average young person though? They don't. A lot of them do, in some countries, most. It just shows you the trend line though. Young people are far less patriotic towards their countries than their older counterparts are.

You can accept and appreciate other cultures without having to be them.

The EU isn't promoting cultural homogenization. In fact, its motto is "United in diversity." The EU is promoting a common European identity and culture as well as a national identity and culture.

I think what it really comes down to in the end is how much the people living in the EU have the feeling of association with those living in other EU countries. At the moment, a lot of people feel like there are phantoms in Brussels governing the EU along with the leaders of, say, Germany and France but I don't really think that's the situation.

Either way, from personal experience I've noticed that young people all over Europe don't have any problems associating with each other while older people in their countries do. In fact, the older people have absolutely no feelings of association with those from other countries because they've had no opportunity to associate. Young people, though, have access to internet. It's my opinion that globalization is bound to make the average European's opinion of an even more united EU improve. At least globalization in the sense of internet. And we can see the effects today. At least I can.

I'm not saying that young people as they are now would accept a federate EU. I just don't think it will take more than about 2 more generations (assuming you take one generation as 25 years) after me for the majority of the general public to approve of it.

[Kryos]

Yeah this just irritates me. Like looking at it from an economic perspective, I just cannot fathom how they believe a single currency is right for a country as powerful as Germany, can also be right for a country like Bulgaria. You have to be kidding me.

Weak Euro = strong exports. We Germans want to sell our cars to the USA and other countrys. We can't do that if we still had the D-Mark because they would be just too damn expensive overseas. I remember times when buying a german car was something only very rich Americans could do because of the strong Deutsche Mark.

If the Euro is a bit weak, it's good for German export business. That's why we Germans don't want Greek and other countrys to leave the EU. We don't want a very strong and dominant Euro.

China is doing the same thing
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...297113136.html
Just in an illegal way - they rate their own currency lower than it actually needs to be. So it's good for strong EU countrys to add some weaker partners to keep the €uro down.
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/...eeds-the-euro/

"Consider that Germany, which has a generous social safety net, relatively high wages and just 80 million people, is the world's second-largest exporting country. The euro has played a significant part in this. German exports have more than doubled since they went on the euro in 1999, going from around 469 billion euros to well over a trillion euros in 2010. The rate of growth was also twice as fast as other nations in the zone."

You need to think in bigger dimensions.

[Wikiy]

Yeah this just irritates me. Like looking at it from an economic perspective, I just cannot fathom how they believe a single currency is right for a country as powerful as Germany, can also be right for a country like Bulgaria. You have to be kidding me.

It's not right for Bulgaria. That's why they have strict criteria for the Euro. By the way, the economic difference between East Germany and West Germany is larger than the economic difference between Germany and Greece. Same goes for Northern Ireland-England and UK-Greece. My point? If you're gonna use that argument of yours, you might as well say the UK is crazy for not introducing a special currency for Northern Ireland.

And all the anti-EU people should really stop pretending they actually know something about economics. You don't. The average person doesn't. The people in Brussels know far more than you so unless you have an economics degree you really don't have anything significant to say.