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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmin View Post
    Nowadays only bleeds (like LR) snapshot stats.
    Warlock poking his head in to say this is completely wrong. Warlock DoTs are static with Spell Power, so you guys might want to be 100% sure you're not static with Agility.
    Last edited by Teye; 2013-01-12 at 07:10 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    The problem with TotH is that it procs at the most inopportune times. And it procs a lot. You can either delay your heavy hitters to use it and do less overall dps, or delay it to run your rotation and lose out on potential dps. DB on the other hand is fire and forget. Fervor is off the GCD, lets me hit really hard when I want to and starving myself of focus to use it is pretty easy.
    It's deceptive how much it procs, seeing as it's focus is comparable to fervor it averages out at once every 15 seconds
    Apologies for derailing the thread a little but it's something I've wanted to debate for a while
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    Ra-den is what you get when a designer thinks that's actually a really good idea.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    The problem with TotH is that it procs at the most inopportune times. And it procs a lot. You can either delay your heavy hitters to use it and do less overall dps, or delay it to run your rotation and lose out on potential dps. DB on the other hand is fire and forget. Fervor is off the GCD, lets me hit really hard when I want to and starving myself of focus to use it is pretty easy.
    Fervor and TOTH, as Dela states, has pretty much the same focus output, but TOTH is "easier" to use due to the fact that when it procs, you essentially have a focus bar that says XXX/160, instead of XXX/100, in arcane/multishots. Fervor requires you to bleed yourself dry, and then pop it, in order to take advantage of it. TOTH is added on top of current focus. All you have to do when TOTH procs, is substitute the cobra shots you'd usually use, for Arcane shots. Nothing in your priority ever changes:
    Explo>Black Arrow>Glaive Toss>Arcane Shot>Cobra shot. But if you have 3 free Arcane's, you obviously get to shoot 3 arcane's more before you have to shoot one cobra.

    All in all, dela, as said, I think Fervor may come out ahead on a pure singletarget fight, ever so slightly. But I'm also convinced that TOTH will win out over fervor in most progress-related encounters, due to the extra utility it "has" over Fervor - it really doesn't matter if the focus provided can be used on only AS or both AS and ES, as the focus you'd use on AS would just translate into focus for ES instead (if you understand what I mean, can't really think of a better way to word it).

    In the end, I'm convinced that the major difference between you and calebh/eiwo isn't the talent (because why would it be such a huge difference - 17K dps between you and eiwo, and nearly 30K between you and caleb), but rather, a level of skill. No offense to either of them, but Caleb/Eiwo has never been hunters I have been particularly "wow'd" by. Not saying that I'd do better, and they're obviously in the top percentile, but I'm convinced they're in the guild for other reasons than being extremely good hunters - EG, the ability to spend the neccessary time required for a top guild, being good with multiple characters, or good leading/organising skills, etc - I find that the majority of their top ranks are usually achieved when they have "all the gear", and all the other more mediocre guilds are still catching up, being multiple item levels behind. When the playing field has been levelled, and people who do the shitty jobs because they're just the only one's capable of it, they drop alot. You usually don't =P.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-01-12 at 08:34 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    Fervor is off the GCD, lets me hit really hard when I want to and starving myself of focus to use it is pretty easy.
    I think it's just different situations.

    Fervor is opportune if it's off CD at a time you're really low on Focus, for example unloading a chain of ES, BA, GT and Crows. On the other hand, Fervor can come off-CD at a high-Focus time (LnL + refreshing Sting, etc) and then you have to push to dump Focus in order to use Fervor on CD and not waste its gain.

    TotH is the opposite. If it pops up at a very low-Focus time it can be frustrating because you can't safely burn off the free shots without jeopardizing your ability to keep SrS up and ES/BA/GT/possibly Crows cooling. So if you get really low on Focus and TotH prox, you may need to Cobra a few times anyway to not push back your next important ability.

    On the other hand if TotH prox at a medium/high-Focus time, it's no real concern since you can't "cap" Thrill unless it expires and it can be consumed in little bits, weaving it with Focus-consuming stuff or Cobra shots as needed. It's true that you unavoidably overwrite TotH sometimes while following the prio, but I suspect the ability's DPS contribution is balanced around an assumption of not-perfect efficiency.

    I guess that's one clinical reason I like Thrill. It can be used at any point in your Focus bar if needed, but there's no penalty for using it at high Focus. As noted, both have times they shine and times they're frustrating.

    As for Dire Beast, I'm sorry, but I can't comment since I pretend it doesn't exist. To me it's one of the lamest, grossest, most underwhelming abilities ever implemented. "Look! Yet another giant stupid animal!" <shudder>

  5. #25
    You do know that if TOTH procs at a low focus-time, there's no reason not to fill up the bar to make sure you can cobra/BA before bleeding the arcane's out, right? Only shots that costs focus can proc TOTH, which would mean cobra/TOTH arcane's cant. TOTH should never be able to alter your rotation, apart from the obvious "fire more arcanes instead of cobras"

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    In the end, I'm convinced that the major difference between you and calebh/eiwo isn't the talent (because why would it be such a huge difference - 17K dps between you and eiwo, and nearly 30K between you and caleb), but rather, a level of skill. No offense to either of them, but Caleb/Eiwo has never been hunters I have been particularly "wow'd" by. I find that the majority of their top ranks are usually achieved when they have "all the gear", and all the other more mediocre guilds are still catching up, being multiple item levels behind. When the playing field has been levelled, and people who do the shitty jobs because they're just the only one's capable of it, they drop alot. You usually don't =P.
    Not to derail the thread or anything but this is a pretty ridiculous thing to say. I don't think most top guilds are interested in whether or not you are rank 1 or rank 20. To get a good parse on most encounters, you need to avoid being assigned to any mechanics and pad wherever possible, just so you can impress whichever random people actually look at top parses.

    Sure, opportunities like this exist on encounters such as Spirit Kings (if you avoid the responsibility of dispelling) and Vizier (if you avoid the responsibility of breaking MCs), why focus on getting that extra 5K DPS when playing so aggressively will increase the likelihood of you dying to a crucial mechanic on an encounter where you are minutes ahead of the enrage anyway?

    I feel like if the first thing you look at on a log is the damage meters you are probably going to get a distorted view of which players are actually good.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunba View Post
    Not to derail the thread or anything but this is a pretty ridiculous thing to say. I don't think most top guilds are interested in whether or not you are rank 1 or rank 20. To get a good parse on most encounters, you need to avoid being assigned to any mechanics and pad wherever possible, just so you can impress whichever random people actually look at top parses.

    Sure, opportunities like this exist on encounters such as Spirit Kings (if you avoid the responsibility of dispelling) and Vizier (if you avoid the responsibility of breaking MCs), why focus on getting that extra 5K DPS when playing so aggressively will increase the likelihood of you dying to a crucial mechanic on an encounter where you are minutes ahead of the enrage anyway?

    I feel like if the first thing you look at on a log is the damage meters you are probably going to get a distorted view of which players are actually good.
    Opinions, I guess. Having a focus target and pressing a button everytime adds gets close costs you 30K dps? Fair enough.

    But then it is as I said - they're there for their ability to play, not to top DPS as a hunter. Which is perfectly legit - most top end guilds are no different from a top 50, or top 100 guild in level of skill - the difference is amount of hours put into the game (through dedication with alts, or just hours spent smashing a seemingly impossible boss).

    In any case, the argument was that the talent is not far apart, as no talent will cause a 17K, let alone 30K, difference in DPS, so that was not the reason for him being ahead. If it's the added responsibility that took its toll on the other two, or skill difference, can be argued I guess. But historically, caleb has never been a reliably high ranking hunter on "farm", only when he's several gear levels ahead of people, while Eiwo's a bit better in that regard.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-01-13 at 02:46 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Opinions, I guess. Having a focus target and pressing a button everytime adds gets close costs you 30K dps? Fair enough.
    I'm guessing you haven't seen that phase yet.

    But then it is as I said - they're there for their ability to play, not to top DPS as a hunter.
    You're wording it like it's a matter of ability, when really it is a matter of choice.

    In any case, the argument was that the talent is not far apart, as no talent will cause a 17K, let alone 30K
    Actually they are pretty much identical - 2486 focus (Fervor) vs 2460 focus (TOTH). If you scale for player uptime TOTH is even ahead.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by asdfsaf View Post
    Dracodraco: considering you haven't even been to p2 Sha you should really stop talking. You're rather clueless and apparently know nothing at all about the fight.
    Cute, making a forum acc just to talk back to me.
    Clearly I am unable to distinguish anything at all about a fight before I have actually been to the last phase of it, and my raid's overall progress and performance is a direct reflection of my own, as we are all equally good - I am a clueless fool, who will shut up because a random person tells me to, as I am clearly too bad to ever accomplish whatever you have. I bow down to you, my master. Clearly, you are the superior alpha male.

    In any case, as I've said multiple times, my opinions will be my opinions. People don't have to agree with them. I'll be the first to admit that my performance this tier has been worse than the previous due to new responsibilities. But that doesn't take anything away from what my point has been, and I don't think anyone's disagreeing with me - TOTH and fervor are as close as can be, and the difference between the hunter's dps in that kill has nothing to do with the talent, but rather, responsibility/skill.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-01-13 at 03:55 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdfsaf View Post
    Also, 15/16 four months into the expansion isn't at all impressive, sorry :-(
    Where did he say it was?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by asdfsaf View Post
    Throwing the ball does have an impact on DPS. Unnecessary DPS-whoring on adds early into phase two has an impact on DPS. Huddle RNG has an impact on DPS. Target assignments have an impact on DPS. Of course you have considered all these factors before making your judging statements, right?

    Also, 15/16 four months into the expansion isn't at all impressive, sorry :-(
    Dela got 3 huddles, caleb 3, Eiwo 1. That can't be it.
    Caleb triggered 474 ISS, Eiwo 486, and Dela 526. So a difference of 52/40 serpent sting applications - mind that multishot will trigger anywhere from 2 to however many adds+sha you get of these in the last phase, so realisticly, he can't have shot more than 10 multishots more.
    The big difference between dela/eiwo probably comes from Barrage, but caleb has glaive toss.

    And I didn't say anything about it being impressive - I said that judging my level of skill on my raid's performance is stupid . I'd have prefered shekzeer/tsulong to die before christmas, but our roster didn't allow for that. Tough luck, I guess.
    Do you truly not believe I could do in a top end guild? I know what the requirements are - but I can't adjust my life around them at the moment due to school. Maybe someday, I'll be impressive to you, because I get to clear content fast because I raid four times as much and skip school for a few weeks.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-01-13 at 07:47 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    You do know that if TOTH procs at a low focus-time, there's no reason not to fill up the bar to make sure you can cobra/BA before bleeding the arcane's out, right? Only shots that costs focus can proc TOTH, which would mean cobra/TOTH arcane's cant. TOTH should never be able to alter your rotation, apart from the obvious "fire more arcanes instead of cobras"
    You have to fill up your bar so you can ES / other stuff when it comes off-cooldown. By the time you Cobra a few times, those cooldowns may be up. Thus, you spend Focus before consuming TotH and potentially overwrite it.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Fervor is opportune if it's off CD at a time you're really low on Focus, for example unloading a chain of ES, BA, GT and Crows. On the other hand, Fervor can come off-CD at a high-Focus time (LnL + refreshing Sting, etc) and then you have to push to dump Focus in order to use Fervor on CD and not waste its gain.
    If it happens multiple times (higher priority shots first) you may lose the use of 1 fervor. Otherwise it just means you get to burst for a bit, which is fun. Worst case, you can half-use it (cap focus) without changing a thing in your rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    TotH is the opposite. If it pops up at a very low-Focus time it can be frustrating because you can't safely burn off the free shots without jeopardizing your ability to keep SrS up and ES/BA/GT/possibly Crows cooling. So if you get really low on Focus and TotH prox, you may need to Cobra a few times anyway to not push back your next important ability.

    On the other hand if TotH prox at a medium/high-Focus time, it's no real concern since you can't "cap" Thrill unless it expires and it can be consumed in little bits, weaving it with Focus-consuming stuff or Cobra shots as needed. It's true that you unavoidably overwrite TotH sometimes while following the prio, but I suspect the ability's DPS contribution is balanced around an assumption of not-perfect efficiency.

    I guess that's one clinical reason I like Thrill. It can be used at any point in your Focus bar if needed, but there's no penalty for using it at high Focus. As noted, both have times they shine and times they're frustrating.
    The problem with TotH is consuming 3 gcds to utilize it fully, and making sure you use it a short while after it procs. If I need to delay Fervor for later burst I can. I may or may not be able to do that with TotH.

    It annoys me because it screams 'Do this now!' and I go 'But you're my lowest priority shot! What about this other stuff I have to do!?'. And then it goes 'Well maybe I'll come back later then when you're in a better mood!' and storms out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    As for Dire Beast, I'm sorry, but I can't comment since I pretend it doesn't exist. To me it's one of the lamest, grossest, most underwhelming abilities ever implemented. "Look! Yet another giant stupid animal!" <shudder>
    XD

  14. #34
    There's nothing saying you have to use ToTH procs. It's not designed to shoot all of them because it's not possible.
    It's awesome to weave in a free AS when you are waiting 0.5s on that ES or GT.

  15. #35
    Looks like you might have butt hurt some tweens Draco. LOL

    Chillax people, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. Some of you are one. Draco gives his opinions, I don't always agree with them, but he's allowed to give them. For someone to reply that his 15/16 is unimpressive, that's pathetic. Retarded 4 year-old children would reply better than that.

    Basically, IMO, if you aren't top 25 in the world, you are just another guild wishing you were. My guild is just another guild wishing it was one of those guilds wishing. Thanks for the discussions Draco and Dela, informative to some of us.
    Don't be elitist, it's a video game for crying out loud. Cure cancer, then you can be an asshole.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    If it happens multiple times (higher priority shots first) you may lose the use of 1 fervor. Otherwise it just means you get to burst for a bit, which is fun. Worst case, you can half-use it (cap focus) without changing a thing in your rotation.
    True, it's not a huge thing, but then neither is a few blips with TotH getting overwritten. It's more that each one has moments where it can feel frustrating because you "can't" use it yet, but want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    There's nothing saying you have to use ToTH procs. It's not designed to shoot all of them because it's not possible.
    I do suspect it's balanced under the assumption you don't make full use of every proc. However, you can definitely be more or less lazy about how hard you push to squeeze in every last possible free AS. That's another reason I like Thrill, I guess — it's useful even when you feel lazy, but it also feels like there's a reward when you put more effort in.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2013-01-14 at 04:03 PM.

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