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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    It is true that this bubble cannot exist if either or both lender or borrower were smart about finances. But the way I see it is that banks were on a reckless loaning spree and borrowers were taking very risky loans without educating themselves first. But the result is people go into bankruptcy and big banks get government aid to recover and is on their way to making profits again. Not to mention the individual reckless lending agents and individual CEO types made a lot of profit from the ordeal.

    I think it's rather unfair.
    No its your responsibility to understand the contract you sign. If you dont get a lawyer to tell you. People should know if you make 2500 a month you cant afford a 1700 mortgage. Its basic finance that these people never learned. Your mortgage should be no more than 1 weeks pay. Its the.peoples fault. The banks didnt care as they had collateral. Its only the fault of the.person. They need to own up to fucking up and gtfo.

  2. #22
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    My bad. Forgive me for expecting someone who makes a big commitment like taking out a housing loan, to know what they fuck they are doing and getting themselves into before making the jump. Yes, it's entirely the bank's fault for that person not being able to make the payments on a loan that they had to voluntarily sign off on. It's basic math to figure out if you can afford a loan or not. I guess my assumptions of the IQ of an average human being are a little to high for today's standards.

    Seven years after buying his house Perilla, an unemployed painter whose wife works part-time, is fighting foreclosure. The bank has told him his house is now only worth €140,000 and refuses to accept it back in payment for the debt. "But it was their valuer who originally said it was worth a lot more," he said. "Banks inflated prices and now they are making ordinary people pay for them." The bank has now said he can just pay interest for three years: "But that still leaves me with the debt. These things crush you, both morally and physically."

    But things look unlikely to get better. Unemployment, already at 26%, is set to grow, creating still more people who cannot pay mortgages. Iker is one of the fortunate minority in his age bracket with a job. More than 50% of under-25s fail to find work. Spain lost some 800,000 jobs last year. Only Greece – Europe's worst disaster story – can rival the figures.
    These people took their loans before they lost their jobs, due to the financial mess the banks created (in the name of profit for shareholders who do nothing to contribute to the economy and create money that does not exist).

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 07:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trunksee View Post
    No its your responsibility to understand the contract you sign. If you dont get a lawyer to tell you. People should know if you make 2500 a month you cant afford a 1700 mortgage. Its basic finance that these people never learned. Your mortgage should be no more than 1 weeks pay. Its the.peoples fault. The banks didnt care as they had collateral. Its only the fault of the.person. They need to own up to fucking up and gtfo.
    They should, they make money by basicly gambling with the money that people deposit.

  3. #23
    I love how all the feel good group like to hate on the banks for lending money to these people when it's all a math equation to determine eligibility. Then if the banks had turned them down, the same group would be screaming racism, sexism, ageism, moneyism or whatever else they could think of.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    What I'm saying is they shouldn't evict people out of houses that they can't use to sell (since their is no market for it) to pay back the mess they made.
    Why would you take houses you can't even use for selling from people that have no job and nowhere to go? Why would you want to put people trough misery like that, is profit more important then the wellbeing of other human beings? If you think profit>humans, then you are a capitalist like they where in the industrial age.
    They CAN sell them. Recouping some of their costs is better than recouping none of their costs.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Trunksee View Post
    No its your responsibility to understand the contract you sign. If you dont get a lawyer to tell you. People should know if you make 2500 a month you cant afford a 1700 mortgage. Its basic finance that these people never learned. Your mortgage should be no more than 1 weeks pay. Its the.peoples fault. The banks didnt care as they had collateral. Its only the fault of the.person. They need to own up to fucking up and gtfo.
    By approving a loan, the bank is essentially saying "I believe you will be able to pay us back". If it is as you say, your mortgage should be no more than 1 weeks pay then why did the lender even approve a 1700 mortgage for someone making 2500 a month. Not only that, the bank's house appraisers should know a 20% monthly increase for house value isn't natural but they are happy to work with banks to appraise the house "as is".

    The way it is right now, banks are free to continue this reckless lending however they want with no repercussion. As long as they can find preys to exploit then they will do so for profit. And when bubble burst, they simply point to contract and say "too bad you signed" and ask government for a bailout loan. You can almost compare this to a scam.
    their moving their table over their
    they're moving they're table over they're
    there moving there table over there

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    They CAN sell them. Recouping some of their costs is better than recouping none of their costs.
    To who? 50%+ of young people are jobless, 20%+ of the entire population is jobless. And those banks already get billions in public aid, meaning tax payers money, tax payers who are in constant fear of losing their job and getting evicted by banks with corrupted CEO's that are earning money with this.

    And I still stand by my point that you shouldn't put people trough misery like this just for balancing a budget.

  7. #27
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    Basicly, they lend money to people from wich the knew they probably wouldn't be able to pay back. Also, the housing market in Spain is worthless, the banks won't be able to do anything with the empty houses. + they get billions in aid for screwing up in the past.

    Sollidarity by the people for the people, screw capitalism, screw the rich assholes that bancrupt a country for personal gain.


    The logic behind their decision was clear and simple. While Spain's banks mop up billions of euros in public aid, they are also busy reclaiming homes that in some cases they lent silly money for. At the height of Spain's housing madness, banks were, in effect, offering mortgages of more than 100%. They aggressively chased clients – especially among the immigrants who arrived from Latin America in their millions to build new homes – creating an uncontrolled spiral of self-fulfilling, but ultimately doomed, demand. Complex networks of guarantors were pieced together by middlemen among immigrants who often barely understood what they were doing.
    And the people accepted those loans. I'm not saying the banks didn't do stupid things, but they aren't 100% the bad guys here, and if it weren't for those loans, the people in question wouldn't have the places to get evicted from in the first place. The people who are getting evicted bear some responsibility. If I got a loan and couldn't pay it, I'd expect my house to be foreclosed on, I'd deal with it, and move on. That's the deal I made.

    I'm a pretty liberal person by US standards, but I'm not willing to just say "banks are evil, screw them!"
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    And the people accepted those loans. I'm not saying the banks didn't do stupid things, but they aren't 100% the bad guys here, and if it weren't for those loans, the people in question wouldn't have the places to get evicted from in the first place. The people who are getting evicted bear some responsibility. If I got a loan and couldn't pay it, I'd expect my house to be foreclosed on, I'd deal with it, and move on. That's the deal I made.

    I'm a pretty liberal person by US standards, but I'm not willing to just say "banks are evil, screw them!"
    I don't say banks are evil (just that they are moneygrabbing assholes), but the evictions are close to what would be called a humanitary crisis, the banks shouldn't just trow them out of their houses, other measures could be taken, like paying a rent (wich most of those people would be able to afford), the banks would get their money (less of it tough) and people wouldn't commit suicide for having no place to go.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    To who? 50%+ of young people are jobless, 20%+ of the entire population is jobless. And those banks already get billions in public aid, meaning tax payers money, tax payers who are in constant fear of losing their job and getting evicted by banks with corrupted CEO's that are earning money with this.

    And I still stand by my point that you shouldn't put people trough misery like this just for balancing a budget.
    This might be a difficult thing to grasp but:

    If you start a family when you can't afford to, with the expectation that taxpayers will foot the bill for you; You are greedy.
    If you accept a loan you can't afford in order to get things you can't afford, and then expect to keep those things when you default on those loans; You are greedy.
    and yes.
    If you start a company, knowing full well the risks of your trade, and expect taxpayers to bail you out when things don't go according to plan; You are greedy.

    There's greed on both sides of the coin.

    I fully support my tax money being used for public housing for people who otherwise can't afford a home, as long as they don't expect the fucking Hilton, or a free house.

    And honestly, maintaining a banks liquidity isn't entirely about the bank itself, but about the millions of people who depend on that bank to keep their money safe, and for that money to be there when they go to withdraw it. I mean this money should first come from the pockets of the bank execs that are responsible for the shenanigans to begin with, before it comes from any other source. But corrupt execs make up for a minority of any businesses employees. There's also a lot of honest people working for those banks, who have families to clothe and feed, who don't make a hell of a lot of money doing so either.

    Would you have them join the misery just so some greedy idiot who bought a house he knew he couldn't afford can keep said house?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    So we're not going to provide a service for the bank because what? They kindly agreed to lend money to people who now can't pay it back and are trying to recoup part of their investment, as they agreed with the person involved in the first place?
    yes until those bankers who have lose billions of euro in derivates leading the economy in a hole don't give them back.

  11. #31
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    yes until those bankers who have lose billions of euro in derivates leading the economy in a hole don't give them back.
    In the US at least, the banks mostly have given the money back from their bailouts, those that survived anyway.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  12. #32
    Scarab Lord DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
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    There is so much wrong with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    Seven years after buying his house... it was their valuer who originally said it was worth a lot more," he said. "Banks inflated prices and now they are making ordinary people pay for them
    Seven years ago, the house was original worth more, but since the bubble burst it is now worth less. This isn’t some conspiracy. This is the value of something changing over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    The locksmiths' rebellion follows several widely reported suicides by people about to be evicted from their homes. "It wasn't suicide," demonstrators who marched through her town later that day shouted. "It was murder."
    Seriously? All that shows is that the demonstrators don’t have a clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    "Banks still don't want to do anything. As you stop paying you cease to exist for them – they don't care if you are sick or if you have children."
    Duh. If a bank acted like a charity whose purpose was to put you in a house and help you out, the bank would cease to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    As Spain enters yet another year of austerity and sky-high unemployment, people such as De Carlos are increasingly fed up with seeing the country's most vulnerable paying for the errors of its banks.
    Because the vast numbers of people who willfully got loans they couldn’t repay so that they could increase their standard of living with a big house bear no blame? When a buyer doesn’t do his due diligence (basic math in this case), he has no one to blame for himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    Gladys Cerna, 49, is facing foreclosure on her small flat in Madrid's San Blas neighbourhood. Her bank gave her a 120% mortgage in 2007. "When you sign they turn up with lawyers and economists, and I didn't have any real idea what I was letting myself in for," she said.
    So she signed a contract that she didn’t even begin to understand? Again, she like so many has brought it on herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    Even the police are going to refuse to help with evictions, because a lot of officers are dealing with depressions because of the evictions.

    I'm happy to see that some people in this world will give up their personal profit in order to help a fellow human.
    So the police refusing to uphold the law is understandable because the police are sad? Giving up their personal profit in order to help a fellow human? No, that isn’t what they are doing. If they were helping these people solve their self-inflicted problems then you could say they are helping them. Instead, those police are just accessories to trespassing and squatting with actions such as those.
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    I suggest you read the article before you make ignorant comments. The banks lended money to people who didn't know they wouldn't be able to pay back. They evict sick people who have no where else to go, they evict entire families.
    And the people who didn't know they wouldn't be able to pay the loans back when they should have been able to determine as much using basic math did this to themselves.

    Of course they evict sick people and entire families. If a bank gives you a loan and you don't repay it and expect to keep what the bank paid for because you have family, you are nothing but a thief. If you expect banks to act like charities, there would be no banks and no one to give you loans in the first place. Have fun ever getting a house then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    The longer the process of clearing the market takes, the longer the bad times continue.
    BINGO. People wonder why housing prices continue to drop in some areas, but the two reasons are clear. Firstly, the housing market never reached a realistic market value even with the drop from the crash in some areas, and secondly because governments and criminal individuals (trespassers and squatters) delay the process of allowing the market to return to equilibrium and stability.

    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    Honestly both sides need to take a hit. I suggest cutting montages in half and the banks eat the cost of the deferred revenue/payments.
    And then all banks go bankrupt instantly. Great plan there.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    What I'm saying is they shouldn't evict people out of houses that they can't use to sell (since their is no market for it) to pay back the mess they made.
    Because they can sell it for something to avoid the massive loss that not getting anything would present. And they (banks) did not make this mess. Banks and foolish individuals made this mess. Placing the entirety of the blame on banks and none on those who got loans that anyone with common sense could see there was a great chance of not being able to pay is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    These people took their loans before they lost their jobs, due to the financial mess the banks created (in the name of profit for shareholders who do nothing to contribute to the economy and create money that does not exist).

    They should, they make money by basicly gambling with the money that people deposit.
    And right here you show that your understanding of how investments and the economy works is so horrible that no one can realistically take your opinions seriously. Investment (by those shareholders that you say do nothing to contribute) is one of the two main driving forces of a capitalistic market. Without investment, the entire system falls apart as investment allows for production and consumption far beyond what would be justifiable without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    I love how all the feel good group like to hate on the banks for lending money to these people when it's all a math equation to determine eligibility. Then if the banks had turned them down, the same group would be screaming racism, sexism, ageism, moneyism or whatever else they could think of.
    Correct. People just want someone to blame other than themselves no matter what and the “big, evil, heartless, cruel, thieving” banks make a perfect target for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    And I still stand by my point that you shouldn't put people trough misery like this just for balancing a budget.
    Then the entirety of the market falls to pieces and EVERYONE has no job. How is this not plainly obvious to you?

    The whole “we hate capitalism” mantra is sheer stupidity. Without capitalism your country and its standard of living would never have risen to be as high as it is now or was before the bubble burst. You seek to destroy your future as well as liberty itself if you seek the downfall of capitalism.
    Last edited by DEATHETERNAL; 2013-01-08 at 07:36 PM.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    This might be a difficult thing to grasp but:

    If you start a family when you can't afford to, with the expectation that taxpayers will foot the bill for you; You are greedy.
    If you accept a loan you can't afford in order to get things you can't afford, and then expect to keep those things when you default on those loans; You are greedy.
    and yes.
    If you start a company, knowing full well the risks of your trade, and expect taxpayers to bail you out when things don't go according to plan; You are greedy.

    There's greed on both sides of the coin.

    I fully support my tax money being used for public housing for people who otherwise can't afford a home, as long as they don't expect the fucking Hilton, or a free house.

    And honestly, maintaining a banks liquidity isn't entirely about the bank itself, but about the millions of people who depend on that bank to keep their money safe, and for that money to be there when they go to withdraw it. I mean this money should first come from the pockets of the bank execs that are responsible for the shenanigans to begin with, before it comes from any other source. But corrupt execs make up for a minority of any businesses employees. There's also a lot of honest people working for those banks, who have families to clothe and feed, who don't make a hell of a lot of money doing so either.

    Would you have them join the misery just so some greedy idiot who bought a house he knew he couldn't afford can keep said house?
    As I said before, most of those evicted people are people who lost their job after they took a loan. The other one's are the people who lost their job and took a mortgage on their house (and are getting less then their house is worth, because the banks inflated prices) to be able to provide food, clothing and education for their family.

    You are right there are 2 sides of the coin yet you say those people are greedy, thats not even 1 side of the coin, thats the edge of the coin.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    As I said before, most of those evicted people are people who lost their job after they took a loan. The other one's are the people who lost their job and took a mortgage on their house (and are getting less then their house is worth, because the banks inflated prices) to be able to provide food, clothing and education for their family.

    You are right there are 2 sides of the coin yet you say those people are greedy, thats not even 1 side of the coin, thats the edge of the coin.
    And I wouldn't even dream of getting a mortgage if I felt losing my job was even a remote possibility.

    EDIT: And it's not like they don't have options. They can declare bankruptcy, go through the foreclosure process, and start their lives over again, finding new opportunity, instead of clenching on with death's icy grip to something that isn't even theirs anymore.

  15. #35
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    And I wouldn't even dream of getting a mortgage if I felt losing my job was even a remote possibility.
    I would, but I would understand that if I lost my job, I could lose my house, and that I'd have to make other arrangements if that were to occur.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  16. #36
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    And I wouldn't even dream of getting a mortgage if I felt losing my job was even a remote possibility.

    EDIT: And it's not like they don't have options. They can declare bankruptcy, go through the foreclosure process, and start their lives over again, finding new opportunity, instead of clenching on with death's icy grip to something that isn't even theirs anymore.
    In a country that has an unemployment rate of 20%?
    But I'm sure that you know better then thousands of unemployed homeless people, I'm sure you would be able to turn your life around and become a wellstanding member of society after losing everything...

    The problem with people is that they think other people's misery is caused by themselves, because life is fair for everyone, except lazy/dumb people.

    And when life turns around and kicks you in the nuts, I'm sure you would be blaming it on society, banks or the government and you would demand the welfare that you denied others, because you deserved it, you're not one of those lazy welfare leachers!

  17. #37
    Scarab Lord DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    And when life turns around and kicks you in the nuts, I'm sure you would be blaming it on society, banks or the government and you would demand the welfare that you denied others, because you deserved it, you're not one of those lazy welfare leachers!
    Not everyone is so without reason and sense.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  18. #38
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    To who? 50%+ of young people are jobless, 20%+ of the entire population is jobless. .
    Outside investors, Time share companies, thoes that still have jobs that before could not afford a house but due to the crash they can now afford a much nicer one at a rebated price...etc!

    I just can't agree with the locksmith's and police in this case. yes it is horrible to lose your house and have an economical crash but you will only extend the misery if you do not follow up and evict and try and get that money back somehow! You must think peoepl have htre money invested in the banks and for the banks to make any returns they need to be making $$ if all they do is loose and leave peopel in these places the economy does not get better it stalemates and then gets worst.

    Sometimes the hard road is the correct road to get back on track... in this case saying "yes I realise there was a huge mess up and we are part of the problem but we must do this to fix it" is what the banks are doing and need to do!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    There is so much wrong with this.
    *snip*
    I don't hate capitalism, I just think humans are worth more then profit and that every human has the right of housing.
    I apreciate that you put so much effort in posting, but you grew up in a culture that values a person from the money on his bankaccount (well every western culturn has this issue, but some more then others)
    and thus I find a lot of your arguments about the economy, welfare and socialism outdated.

    I started this thread because I tought it was hartwarming that locksmiths gave up 10-20% of their profit in the name of solidarity and for what they believe in (lets call it freedom and love for your fellow man), and I'll repeat this, a lot of people in this forum can learn from that.

  20. #40
    This whole post reminds me of an ancient fable...that I just made up while I was in the shower a few minutes ago.

    These three men are walking home from the gym and they come across a horrific scene; there's a badly injured man next to a motorcycle with paramedics working on him and a police officer holding the crowd back.

    "What happened? Is he going to be alright?" Asks one of the men to the officer.
    "He was just riding too fast, he hit the ground so hard that all of his organs are failing now... poor bloke has a family too."

    Just then the bleeding heart of the group steps up and says. "Well there must be something we can do. You see my friend John here works out every day, and has never even been in the same room as a smoker before, so he has a perfect heart and lungs." He points to his other friend. "Carl here eats only the healthiest foods and has never touched a drop of alcohol in his life, so he has a perfect liver and kidneys!"

    At this point the police officer and the other two men are staring at the bleeding heart with a look of contempt, so the officer dares ask. "So what about you?"

    and the bleeding heart replies; "Are you stupid? I need MY organs to live!"

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