T15 BrM set bonus

[Kisho]

I don't think we should begin analyzing this bonus by making a confusion between how it looks and how it really works. It's not 10% proc chance per second. It's 10% chance per Stagger Tick. And the more you'll use Purifying Brew, the less you'll have ticks. When you purify, depending on your avoidance you might not be hit by the boss for quite a few seconds, and you'll completely lose the "10% per second" aspect during that time. This must be taken into account to evaluate the real efficency of this bonus.

From my experience as soon as I purify a new stagger is almost immediately applied afterward. Sure, it's a green stagger, but for the purposes of proccing the 4 set bonus stagger is stagger. Doesn't matter how much damage it's doing.

Sorry, but that 4pc is incredibly worthless. i'd rather see a damage buff, rather than an indirect chi generator.

It's very far from worthless. Less Chi needed to be spent on PB = less haste required = more freedom to get more crit (more EB stacks, more dodge) or more mastery (less burst damage taken). I'd suggest reading Madgod's guide if you can't see how that is beneficial.

[djtravitrav]

Why one would ever want to stack mastery is beyond me. Stacking mastery only leads to an increased amount of damage staggered which in turn requires more purification and more chi wasted instead of doing damage.

So this 4set gives a 10% chance per second of saving 1 chi. That is such a terrible bonus for a 4set, and falls well short of even the 2pc.

On a fight like windlord I don't even bother purifying stagger, it's wasted chi that could be used to do massive dps instead.

In this tier on my WoL I'm averaging about 55% pure avoidance dodge/parry/miss/absorb. I hardly ever get a stagger high enough worth using purifying brew on, except on something like empress during the initial burst of the add phase.

I suppose the point I am really trying to make, is that Purifying brew is such a niche ability which is used in very rare circumstances. If you are finding yourself regularly being forced to clear your stagger to stay alive, you are doing something mechanically wrong, either not keeping up shuffle or not maximizing your EB. I see blizzard catering to the incompetent by designing this 4pc bonus in this way, and I personally find it a really worthless thing to bake into a 4pc tier bonus.

[SurrealNight]

Why one would ever want to stack mastery is beyond me. Stacking mastery only leads to an increased amount of damage staggered which in turn requires more purification and more chi wasted instead of doing damage.

I don't know how you even say this, especially looking at the fight you use in an example. Wind Lord looking at my last log proc'd Moderate Stagger like 36 times and I try to clear it as often as possible without dropping key buffs. Getting a free Chi to clear that every like 6-10 seconds is a huge boon and drastically reduces the amount of Haste you need to fuel PB and keep your buffs up. As stated on previous page with both Chi talents you can basically forge/gem away 100% of your haste rating which in T15 will be a crapload of points.

Now figure out how much Crit % it takes to have a 100% EB uptime the 50% of the time you are tanking the boss. If someone wants to do the math I am assuming you are coming into the swap with a 15 stack EB to start with and just need to cover the remaining.

Once you reach that rating you push all the rest into mastery. Resulting in a 100% tanking duration of either 30% dodge or massively growing "Block" % at the rate of 960 per 1%.

[Biggety]

With level 30 talents not costing chi and PB being essentially free, all you'll have to worry about is 10 BoK and 2 guards per min, or 24 chi, or only 11 energy per second with Asc or 9.33 with PS. If you didn't notice the PS number is below our current base regen.

That's a good point.

Personally, I am not a big fan of leaving my survival up to RNG. I, for one, will not be downgrading haste too much based on a 4pc bonus, as I would rather not rely on a proc to determine whether or not I can clear a stack and whether that will cost me shuffle uptime.

[Kisho]

On a fight like windlord I don't even bother purifying stagger, it's wasted chi that could be used to do massive dps instead.

I, er. What?

I suppose the point I am really trying to make, is that Purifying brew is such a niche ability which is used in very rare circumstances. If you are finding yourself regularly being forced to clear your stagger to stay alive, you are doing something mechanically wrong, either not keeping up shuffle or not maximizing your EB. I see blizzard catering to the incompetent by designing this 4pc bonus in this way, and I personally find it a really worthless thing to bake into a 4pc tier bonus.

What??

You don't clear stagger on wind lord? Really? So you enjoy taking 30-40k damage per second on top of all the other damage? 30-40k DPS that could easily be gotten rid of by spending 1 Chi? Really?

Why are you focusing so much on doing damage? Sure, we put Guards on the raid, but that's secondary to actually staying alive. Besides, even with using PB I can still pull around 300,000 DPS on Wind Lord, which is plenty.

It's not even about being 'forced' to use PB: in the grand scheme of things, Stagger isn't the thing that'll kill us. But why are you wasting your healer's mana by not purifying it? For clarification (since you mentioned it), I'm using up all my EB stacks (usually use it around the 8-10 mark) and keeping Shuffle up 100% of the time whilst tanking. If I stopped using PB, I'd instead use more BoKs for more Shuffle (which I don't need) or use the T30 healing talents more often. Which helps, but not as much as getting rid of the damage in the first place.

I just don't understand where you're coming from. At all.

[djtravitrav]

Even with this extremely minor buff to purifying brew with this 4pc, you would still never EVER start reforging out of haste. Energy regen is simply too important for everything a brewmaster is about. You talk like the only purpose for haste is to "fuel purifying brew" which is absolute nonsense. This simply isn't the same game anymore where mitigation and the ability to take less damage is of paramount importance. Making the enemy dead before berserk timers, however, is. You're focus should be to do as much dps as possible while tanking. If you die, it's the healers fault.

Also, the reason you see 36 occasions of moderate stagger is because you wasted chi using purifying brew to reset your stagger far more than you needed to. Just let it ramp to heavy and focus on doing dps. Believe me, as someone who solo tanks this fight on 25m, healers can handle it, and you will notice the difference in dps you do.

[Chuupag]

Even with this extremely minor buff to purifying brew with this 4pc, you would still never EVER start reforging out of haste. Energy regen is simply too important for everything a brewmaster is about. You talk like the only purpose for haste is to "fuel purifying brew" which is absolute nonsense. This simply isn't the same game anymore where mitigation and the ability to take less damage is of paramount importance. Making the enemy dead before berserk timers, however, is. You're focus should be to do as much dps as possible while tanking. If you die, it's the healers fault.

Now I'm even more confused. At first I just thought you were either trolling or just playing dumb. But now I don't even know if you know what the words you are typing mean. You said you almost never PB and all you care about is dps, then you say you would never reforge out of haste. Haste is the absolute worst stat for dps that we have, not counting mastery of course. Energy regen is such a small part of our dps as to be irrelevant. If you really want dps you would be hit and exp hard capped and stacking crit after that.

---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 01:42 PM ----------

Now figure out how much Crit % it takes to have a 100% EB uptime the 50% of the time you are tanking the boss. If someone wants to do the math I am assuming you are coming into the swap with a 15 stack EB to start with and just need to cover the remaining.

Once you reach that rating you push all the rest into mastery. Resulting in a 100% tanking duration of either 30% dodge or massively growing "Block" % at the rate of 960 per 1%.

That point is fairly far away. You would basically need to hit 75% crit to make that happen with any consistency. I think the more important number is the point where you would have a 50% chance of getting to 9 stacks before your current buff expires, which is a bit more complicated of a math problem, but is likely in the range of 50% just from really bad napkin math. We could call it a crit soft cap just b/c that term is so woefully overused that it deserves another meaning.

[Kisho]

Even with this extremely minor buff to purifying brew with this 4pc, you would still never EVER start reforging out of haste. Energy regen is simply too important for everything a brewmaster is about. You talk like the only purpose for haste is to "fuel purifying brew" which is absolute nonsense. This simply isn't the same game anymore where mitigation and the ability to take less damage is of paramount importance. Making the enemy dead before berserk timers, however, is. You're focus should be to do as much dps as possible while tanking. If you die, it's the healers fault.

By the same logic, you could easily say that DPS is the DPSers responsibility, and if the boss doesn't die before enrage then it's the DPSers fault.

Of course PB isn't the only purpose for haste, but it is the main one. For the purposes of keeping Shuffle and Guard up, you need an absolute minimum of 11 energy regen per second. I've just taken off all my gear and specced out of Ascension. I have 11 energy regen.

Assuming you're not using PB, how much Chi do you honestly need for the T30 healing talents? Or Breath of Fire? Which is only really useful on AoE, which in turn is only really 1 fight in a major sense (Mel'jarak), 1 fight in a moderate sense (Shek'zeer adds, which aren't up for too long), and 2 fights in a very minor sense (Feng and Tsulong, and I'm really pushing it there).

So, T30 healing talents... They're nice, sure, but personally I don't really see many times where I can use them. I generally prefer to rely on my healers to keep me alive, while I focus on minimising the damage I take. Which means PB.

Besides, as Chuupag rightly states, if your main focus is DPS then you're doing it wrong anyway. So you're being contradictory and downright confusing at best.

[gynshon]

Single tanked Heroic Protectors last night. Shuffle uptime 99.3%, stagger was up 85ish percent and I purified 16 times. I only purify when its close to 40% of my current health pool. Obviously not exact science since it is quick calculations in my head. I am unsure how to find in the logs besides looking at the 3 counts of stagger (light, moderate, heavy) and assuming any gaps were caused by a Purify, but would be nice to calculate how often a free PB would come up assuming decent RNG simulation with 4pc.

BTW, does anyone know a way (I am assuming not) how to calculate how much damage we avoided when we Purify?

[Vargarii]

I can't believe I'm reading a thread in which a tank states it is not his/her responsibility to ensure survivability, but to focus on dps.

Moving away from that, I wish I were more mathy, because I'm pretty psyched about the new set bonuses, and I'm enjoying following this discussion.

[cyqu]

I am not seeing it right now. 100k hit is 12k additional dmg staggered?

My average Heroic Sha melee hit tonight was 240k, so that would be what, 29kish that is staggered just from the 2pc alone after Elusive Brew comes off. Now it means we will have to Purify more based on the additional 25% mastery increase, this 2 pc set, etc. Even if we get a free PB on occasion, we won't be going full Mastery.

Maybe I am wrong because it's late and I have a major head cold...but I just don't see it.

cant imagine anything will change with our mastery, if anything i feel 2p will make crit more valuable then it already is after haste plateaus are hit.

i was pretty happy with t14 set bonuses when i first saw them, but these look pretty amazing to me.

I have a strong feeling it will be nerfed in some fashion. There will be just no reason to want haste at all on your gear from an energy perspective. It will still help EB with more attack speed, but what are you gonna spend that chi on...more BoK? Shuffle: to infinity...and beyond.

more damage? when your pushing progression in lower ends of gear a BM tank doing amilli dps is a great thing to have.

BTW, does anyone know a way (I am assuming not) how to calculate how much damage we avoided when we Purify?

wouldn't mind knowing this if its out there as well.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Sorry, but that 4pc is incredibly worthless. i'd rather see a damage buff, rather than an indirect chi generator.

you do know, that even when its only a "indirect chi generator" chi does get spent to do damage, thus it is a damage buff?
apart from that, getting free purifies is a gain in survivability. and in the worst case you lose a few tiger palms, which does a small amount of your total dps.
You should reread the setbonus and think about it again.

edit: about "how to calculate how much damage we avoided when we Purify?": that's numerically written down in the debuff, whats the problem?

[Shinchib]

Sorry if this is a dumb Q, but is PB off the GCD?

[gynshon]

you do know, that even when its only a "indirect chi generator" chi does get spent to do damage, thus it is a damage buff?
apart from that, getting free purifies is a gain in survivability. and in the worst case you lose a few tiger palms, which does a small amount of your total dps.
You should reread the setbonus and think about it again.

edit: about "how to calculate how much damage we avoided when we Purify?": that's numerically written down in the debuff, whats the problem?

I am talking overall for a fight. When you purify 30 times on a fight, it would be nice to see that on Skada/Recount/WoL attributed somewhere so we can show our healers that we are doing our jobs correctly. I am not going to look at my stagger dmg, write it down, then purify and keep a running tally.

Honestly, cannot believe you even asked that question.

[Kisho]

Sorry if this is a dumb Q, but is PB off the GCD?

Yep.

Can't believe I'd ever have to artificially increase the length of a post to avoid the '10 character' issue, but there you go!

[Shinchib]

Yep.

Can't believe I'd ever have to artificially increase the length of a post to avoid the '10 character' issue, but there you go!

I thought so but I wasn't 100% sure.

This just means I'm going to put this closer to my "most used keybinds" so I can PB when I get this proc (if I'm not expecting huge damage in the next 5 seconds)

[SurrealNight]

BTW, does anyone know a way (I am assuming not) how to calculate how much damage we avoided when we Purify?

The combat log reports nothing that gives WoL info on the amount of damage purified.

[20:17:17.088] Genshen Stagger Genshen 34669
[20:17:17.445] Genshen's Heavy Stagger fades from Genshen
[20:17:17.445] Genshen casts Purifying Brew
[20:17:17.588] Genshen Stormlash  Protector Kaolan 29149

The only possible way I could think of would be to;
1) query the expression editor to display Stagger damage + Purifying Brew events.
2) Back into the amount the debuff would need to be to deal the event previous to each PB.
3) Add up total from all PB events.
4) Wish you had those minutes of your life back.

You talk like the only purpose for haste is to "fuel purifying brew" which is absolute nonsense. This simply isn't the same game anymore where mitigation and the ability to take less damage is of paramount importance. Making the enemy dead before berserk timers, however, is. You're focus should be to do as much dps as possible while tanking. If you die, it's the healers fault.

The thing that makes me laugh about this (other than was pointed out) is that haste is also one of the worst ways to boost your DPS. I Believe Expertise to Cap > Crit > Haste is correct if you want to purely boost DPS? Not to mention all the wasted Chi at higher haste which only add more blackout kicks which don't really help much on an AoE fight like Wind Lord as used in the example....

[Deleted]

http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/us/Mal'Ganis/clamlapper/
I want your advice. If you can beat any of my ranks, I'll do what you say.

I beat you on quite a few ranks, including Windlord which is the fight you're talking about, except i beat you in heroic mode. And my advice is : use Purifying Brew.

Edit : the guy deleted his message

[djtravitrav]

Of course you beat me on heroic, the fight is completely different, the adds are alive the entire encounter and you can pad for the entire duration. You'd be horrible if you didn't. That example does not apply.

Also, I never said I don't use purifying brew except on one fight. My argument that is an extremely rarely used ability is what got this entire debate started, but everyone seems to ignore the fact that Purifying Brew is such a minor part of a Brewmaster's toolbox, my original point stands that the 4pc is wasted on something so minor. None of you have been able to provide an argument to alter this other than XYZ says the best way to reforge is... or "LOL TANKS CAN'T DPS DATS THE DPS'S JOB DUNDERHEAD."

Going to go ahead and consider this matter closed and allow you forum heroes back into your echo chamber.

[Deleted]

Of course you beat me on heroic, the fight is completely different, the adds are alive the entire encounter and you can pad for the entire duration. You'd be horrible if you didn't. That example does not apply.

I didn't write i just beat your dps. I beat your rank.