[Ret] T15 Set Bonuses

[Toobad]

So it will basically add an AoE to our single target rotation? Why? Cause DS looks cool to them, or just cause they want us to smash one more button? Or will there be that many AoE encounters that it will actually be useful and not just another pain in the a?

I hope they will come up with something better while there's still time :/

[Lumineus]

I think if GC hears more Ret paladins asking for DP baseline it will counter what they heard in Cata and they might do it.

I don't even know how he could equate them, vis a vis his Twitter response. The MoP version of Divine Purpose is an entirely different animal than the Cataclysm implementation, solely by the removal of the chance to proc from power-building attacks. It is functionally impossible to waste a proc of MoP DP, unless you deliberately let it expire.

[nyc81991]

I don't even know how he could equate them, vis a vis his Twitter response. The MoP version of Divine Purpose is an entirely different animal than the Cataclysm implementation, solely by the removal of the chance to proc from power-building attacks. It is functionally impossible to waste a proc of MoP DP, unless you deliberately let it expire.

Yeah exactly. Its not even the same spell it was in Cata. Hopefully they will understand this soon.

[Deleted]

I actually like this change. Kinda find the 4button rotation pretty boring (4button normal, 6buttons on cds)
I dont think any1 should dislike getting a 5th button to push every now and then. Almost like getting our holy wrath back x)

Imo the DS procc should be free tho :P

[Cartavadin]

So here is my problem... Three days ago we got this post:

"The Retribution 4pc does grant a self-buff that is consumed by the next TV, and does not stack. Wasting some procs is expected, and balanced around. Yes it is a single-target benefit that won't increase DPS on AE fights. We don't want to be in such a limited design space (we're talking about the 15th tier here after all) that every set bonus must be super generic and work in every situation. If anything, we'd rather the Ret bonus be even higher for single-target and paladins will just be stronger at single-target and weaker at AE once they have the set bonus than they are in other tiers. Set bonuses are one of the few chances we have to change what your character does (within reason) aside from all of your numbers just getting bigger."

Then today we got this post:

"The Retribution 4pc set bonus has changed. It now has a chance for Hammer of the Righteous or Crusader Strike to cause your next Divine Storm to cause extra damage to your target. The idea being that you might swap from TV to DS when you get the proc, so that the RNG is something you can actually do something with rather than it just being RNG for extra damage."


If there has ever been a direct contradiction from Blizzard, this is the one. I'm particularly worried about this quote, "The idea being that you might swap from TV to DS when you get the proc". Shouldn't a 4pc set bonus always want you to use it?

Ultimately the only way to ensure that people use DS over TV when the proc happens is to buff DS damage well beyond that of a TV. If you do that, then our 4pc could very well make us the strongest melee cleave in the game which goes against what they said just a few days ago. Otherwise you would have to make the proc only affect your primary target. All of this is just very strange to me.

[threatcon]

So here is my problem... Three days ago we got this post:

"The Retribution 4pc does grant a self-buff that is consumed by the next TV, and does not stack. Wasting some procs is expected, and balanced around. Yes it is a single-target benefit that won't increase DPS on AE fights. We don't want to be in such a limited design space (we're talking about the 15th tier here after all) that every set bonus must be super generic and work in every situation. If anything, we'd rather the Ret bonus be even higher for single-target and paladins will just be stronger at single-target and weaker at AE once they have the set bonus than they are in other tiers. Set bonuses are one of the few chances we have to change what your character does (within reason) aside from all of your numbers just getting bigger."

Then today we got this post:

"The Retribution 4pc set bonus has changed. It now has a chance for Hammer of the Righteous or Crusader Strike to cause your next Divine Storm to cause extra damage to your target. The idea being that you might swap from TV to DS when you get the proc, so that the RNG is something you can actually do something with rather than it just being RNG for extra damage."


If there has ever been a direct contradiction from Blizzard, this is the one. I'm particularly worried about this quote, "The idea being that you might swap from TV to DS when you get the proc". Shouldn't a 4pc set bonus always want you to use it?

Ultimately the only way to ensure that people use DS over TV when the proc happens is to buff DS damage well beyond that of a TV. If you do that, then our 4pc could very well make us the strongest melee cleave in the game which goes against what they said just a few days ago. Otherwise you would have to make the proc only affect your primary target. All of this is just very strange to me.

I completely agree that this goes against all things mentioned in blizzards design with classes. This 4set is by far the worst i have seen to date and if this makes live i imagine that alot of rets will continue to maintain t14 as their raiding tier and fill the gaps as far as ilvl with the new misc plate and weapon. It is sad to even imagine that DS........which from wrath has changed a large amount.....to its current state and basically saying now that DS "Might" replace TV in a already tight rotation if not using DP (Which I am). If they do not attend to the buff duration on inquistion in addition to this tier set i am sad to say that this tier set reguardless of stats will be useless imo. I am all for the previous idea of TV becoming the 4set. It makes sense for RAIDING. Hmmm what a concept. Making a tier actually viable in the situation of SINGLE TARGET DPS!!!!!!!!!! WTF is blizzard thinking that this will qualify as a solid set bonus for ret.

[Reith]

I really want more specifics about how the new iteration of the T15 4-piece bonus works... what he said is too vague to make a determination.

[Lumineus]

Agreed. Seems to me the "bonus damage" Divine Storm deals with this proc would have to be significantly more than Divine Storm actually deals by itself for it to ever be worth bothering with on a single target.

[Veliane]

I don't like it, unless it deals something like 350% of weapon damage as Holy to you main target I'd rather have the holy verdict.. Also what is with that MIGHT want to use it? dafuq.

Agreed. Seems to me the "bonus damage" Divine Storm deals with this proc would have to be significantly more than Divine Storm actually deals by itself for it to ever be worth bothering with on a single target.

It'd have to be 100% more (200% total) to be worth using single target... but that would leave us with a TV's worth of damage...... so no point at all.

[Ryve]

It sounds like a terrible slap in the face to any already weak spec. I was thinking about trying MoP for 4.2 and dusting off my ret, however to someone who can't help but min-max, it sounds like bringing a ret would only be weighing the rest of the raid group down, when they could just bring one of the many, many classes/specs that are doing substantially larger damage.

I'm also foreseeing people with current heroic tier spending every cent upgrading that shit while they still can to avoid facing a previous tier bonus nerf. It also saddens me that even with the T11 prot 4 set still being usable, ret's damage is still mediocre. Break that 4 set, bake at least that additional damage into their baseline. A PvE fix for ret would be as simple as giving them a passive "indignation" buff that causes their auto-attack swings to hit faster and CS/TV to either % chance proc empowered blows when facing non-player enemies, or likewise just a baseline % increase to how hard they hit against NPCs. For interests sake, in PvP Tauren Paladins would be treated as non-player targets, because they are an abomination.

[Sorshen]

Maybe a proc that doubles DS damage? :P

[nyc81991]

So here is my problem... Three days ago we got this post:

"The Retribution 4pc does grant a self-buff that is consumed by the next TV, and does not stack. Wasting some procs is expected, and balanced around. Yes it is a single-target benefit that won't increase DPS on AE fights. We don't want to be in such a limited design space (we're talking about the 15th tier here after all) that every set bonus must be super generic and work in every situation. If anything, we'd rather the Ret bonus be even higher for single-target and paladins will just be stronger at single-target and weaker at AE once they have the set bonus than they are in other tiers. Set bonuses are one of the few chances we have to change what your character does (within reason) aside from all of your numbers just getting bigger."

Then today we got this post:

"The Retribution 4pc set bonus has changed. It now has a chance for Hammer of the Righteous or Crusader Strike to cause your next Divine Storm to cause extra damage to your target. The idea being that you might swap from TV to DS when you get the proc, so that the RNG is something you can actually do something with rather than it just being RNG for extra damage."


If there has ever been a direct contradiction from Blizzard, this is the one. I'm particularly worried about this quote, "The idea being that you might swap from TV to DS when you get the proc". Shouldn't a 4pc set bonus always want you to use it?

Ultimately the only way to ensure that people use DS over TV when the proc happens is to buff DS damage well beyond that of a TV. If you do that, then our 4pc could very well make us the strongest melee cleave in the game which goes against what they said just a few days ago. Otherwise you would have to make the proc only affect your primary target. All of this is just very strange to me.

I don't understand why they changed their mind that fast. I mean it really makes no sense to me.

[Deleted]

Stop trying to mindmasturbate about seeing high numbers. We need something that is gonna give sustainable damage but also something that doesn't give us clear weak points.

Tbh. making us put DS in our primary single-target rotation is gonna make us do less dmg single-target on fights that has several targets but only 1 has to die.
Yes, you would see big numbers(probably) but you would also not be fulfilling the role your are supposed to, which equals that any other melee class would be to prefer in those kinds of scenarios.

But yes, everything is so vague at this point. We will have to see GC iterate on this, before we can make a standpoint.

[Deleted]

i could see a use if the proc made DS do this -> attacks the nearest 5 enemies for [whatever normal ds damg is] if less than 5 enemies hits multiple times on some until all 5 are done"

so on a single target fight you hit the boss 5 times for DS damg instead of once for TV damg. the 5 can be adjusted or a "max 3 hits per player target" could be implemented for balance purposes in pvp.

[Deleted]

Maybe a proc that doubles DS damage? :P

Hmmm DS deals 100% wp dmg as Holy, TV deals 275% wp dmg + X aditional dmg, even if we account the Inquisition buff for DS i still dont think it will surpass TVs damage (and if it does it will be by a very low difference).

And no, you "dont get a 6º button", you simply have the chance to use DS above TV, which is absurd when you are in single target combat. The developers themselves said that using DS in a single combat rotation was wrong, thats why they changed it from its WotLK version, and now they do this without even giving time to test it and changing totally their minds from what they said a few days ago? Pfff.

P.D.: Yeah, i dont le this change at all, i dont see the "buff" it will give this bonus (only when we are with a big number of trash mobs and we use HotR+DS). I really hope to be wrong, but right now i dont see the point to this change :/

[Lumineus]

It'd have to be 100% more (200% total) to be worth using single target... but that would leave us with a TV's worth of damage...... so no point at all.

Right. Key word was significantly. If 4pc bonus is typically worth a 5-6% boost in DPS, and Templar's Verdict is usually around 16% of damage, then let's say average increase provided by this proc would have to be around 1/3 of a TV if you could use it every single time. At a 40% proc rate, let's say you can maybe use this every other finisher. So now it has to add 2/3 of a TV. But Divine Storm only hits for roughly half a TV. So the bonus damage would have to be equivalent to 2.34 Divine Storms, more than tripling the attack's damage.

[thegoodrogue]

I tweet Ghostcrawler about every day, he has probably ignored me by now since I do ask a different question every day (no baited questions or anything). I am sure you guys know by now he only answers stupid questions about dailies and responds to troll tweets.

[Megraam]

does someone need a hug?

Not ad hominem but your inability to even rank at any hc raid encounter clearly shows that you aren't able to pull that rotation you call easy and boring properly. So the weight of your opinion is, well, reduced to zero.

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

So basically..Blizz has returned to ret's old and most "favorite" of friends, RNG..to answer what they needed for a 4p. Ontop of this wonderful homecoming of the second most hated thing that players never really wanted but just had to stomach (CRZ being the first), we get a "MAYBE" that our next tier set's defining bonus, that we SHOULD be shooting for..will "MAYBE" change things up and make DS be more useful than our current solo-finisher. Well thats great, Blizz....thanks for giving us a four piece that you yourselves don't even have the gull to tell us will be a definite gain to us, just as quickly making us undervalue this new set bonus as you made us go "ooo, we got something changed, what is it? I hope it will be good!".

Nice double-edged sword if you'd ask this guy. ..Make us giddy with delight that we just MIGHT get some love, then BAM, take us out at the knees, steal all our hope away (cause God knows SOMEHOW this 4p will make it to live. ..It's just Ret's luck), an beat us like we stole something.

Cute Blizz, really cute..

[Therm]

Not ad hominem but your inability to even rank at any hc raid encounter clearly shows that you aren't able to pull that rotation you call easy and boring properly. So the weight of your opinion is, well, reduced to zero.

edit: no need to have an internet fight with another nerd, just gonna give you hugs and kisses xoxo