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  1. #41
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    If I link my armory and it has gear/whatever stuff you are looking for, you start believing what I am saying? I am not saying this just by looking at my raid, my skada, my numbers or whatever you are thinking. I am LOOKING AT THE TOTAL DPS DONE OF EVERY FIGHT THROUGH WORLDOFLOGS.COM. Hope that helps you understand.
    ..I regularly go on World of Logs and I see nothing of what you're talking about.

    Seriously, the people you're playing with are either super undergeared and your tanks are super overgeared, or no one knows how to apparently play their class.
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  2. #42
    I consider this to be a very real problem. I do not think Blizzard does.

    There is only so much vengeance to go around. The tanks aren't really dealing that damage. Here's an example: if you think, say, a blood DK is such hot dps on wind lord, why don't you stack blood DKs?

    The answer is obvious- the DK isn't bringing that damage. The meter records it is as his, but it isn't. The meter is lying. There's a fight mechanic- in this case vengeance- that you can choose to put on one person only, or split between more. You can't get any MORE of it, because the boss only puts out so much.

    That being said, it's fucking nonsense and should stop. One of my supposed niche's is uncapped multitarget damage. They just gave this to survival hunters, but that decision is probably because hunters needed it. Tanks shouldn't be shitting on dps on meters, because dps actually have to try hard to get numbers. I don't mean they all have super complex aoe rotations- I mean that they are stacked to the gill with dps gear, with dps flasks, burning dps potions, and just absolutely getting waxed because vengeance is worth four of anything. The fact that so much of the damage is brought by the tank also means that there's not much reason to bring a spec that is good at aoe, or to excel at it, because so much of the damage will be brought by the tank under those situations.

    I also find the numbers ludicrous in dungeons. When a dungeon is CHALLENGING content- aka, when you are still below full 463 type gear- a tank is your best damage, again, because vengeance. It really emphasizes "daddy tank and mommy healer take the dps kids out for ice cream and loot". In challenge modes, vengeance is also rather important.

    I mean, say you roll a rogue today. You start up and level, and you find that in no dungeon are you ever really on the meter. No one wants you, you are useless. You find that you have a role in pvp, to a degree, but in pve you are a tag-along. You get all the way to level 90, and you find that this is STILL true. You actually have to be raiding competitively to have any fucking job in pve at all. Unless we were here to tell you otherwise, you would assume your rogue is just a terrible version of a warrior with a battleground trick to go invisible. You would never suspect anything else.

    Vengeance makes dps not feel like dps, and this stretches even into raids. I don't care that it's a limited mechanic or whatever- it's dumb.

  3. #43
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Four step solution.

    Remove Vengeance.
    Normalise Tank DPS for all specs.
    Adjust defensive abilities accordingly, scaling them off of another stat if needs be.
    Boost the threat multiplier to compensate.

    DPS get their meters back, and Tanks have to switch to a DPS spec to quest, just like Healers have to.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    So those of us with well-geared dps specs shouldn't be allowed to do heroics for fun, VP, or for shards/mats?
    You can go there for fun as much as you want, doesn't mean you belong there. By belong there I mean you actually NEED to do that content. And you ignored my second point, where I said if you pull aggro, you outgearing a hc, can easily tank it, I have done so on my Shadow Priest multiple times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
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    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  5. #45
    Last time i checked a raid is a team.
    And its not like any dps losing a spot to a tank. Tanks do only dps when they have aggro.

    Howt he fuck can someone be so egoistic to get emo about tanks being able to do more in raid then just getting slammed into their face.
    How does it personally effect you if you are up or below a tank. You are not in competition against tank classes. You are against other dps classes.
    I repeat: A dps is not going to lose a spot for a tank so this discussion is kinda senseless.

    Iam not arguing that vengeance might be too strong but srsly. If you go emo about it then i dont know what to say.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    ..I regularly go on World of Logs and I see nothing of what you're talking about.
    Wait, we all agree that tanks are doing huge dps (aka, vengeance is doing huge dps) on aoe fights, right?

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_Lord...11111111000000

    By default tank specs aren't checked, that link should show them.

    My criticism is limited to aoe fights and dungeons, which have a lot of aoe. Also, challenge modes, which are based on the dungeons. Single target (or mostly single target) fights I have no such criticism of.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    ..I regularly go on World of Logs and I see nothing of what you're talking about.

    Seriously, the people you're playing with are either super undergeared and your tanks are super overgeared, or no one knows how to apparently play their class.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/

    You need to look at the ranks again and look at each specc on each fight individually rahter then then just looking at the top 10 which noramlly shows Tanks, Arcance mages, Aff locks and rogues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Four step solution.

    Remove Vengeance.
    Normalise Tank DPS for all specs.
    Adjust defensive abilities accordingly, scaling them off of another stat if needs be.
    Boost the threat multiplier to compensate.

    DPS get their meters back, and Tanks have to switch to a DPS spec to quest, just like Healers have to.
    And then patch the threat multiplier every new contnent or addon? Thats what vengeance is for to grow with the content and keep it the same level.
    And if you think tank dps gets pushed by dailies then you obv never played a tank or dont know shit about vengeance.
    Little hint: 5k vengeance from questmobs doesnt do shit.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Wait, we all agree that tanks are doing huge dps (aka, vengeance is doing huge dps) on aoe fights, right?

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_Lord...11111111000000

    By default tank specs aren't checked, that link should show them.

    My criticism is limited to aoe fights and dungeons, which have a lot of aoe. Also, challenge modes, which are based on the dungeons. Single target (or mostly single target) fights I have no such criticism of.
    /sigh.... when will people stop linking top 100 parses? That is not a valid sample. You should look at all parses. http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_Lord...10111111000000
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    Last time i checked a raid is a team.
    And its not like any dps losing a spot to a tank. Tanks do only dps when they have aggro.

    Howt he fuck can someone be so egoistic to get emo about tanks being able to do more in raid then just getting slammed into their face.
    How does it personally effect you if you are up or below a tank. You are not in competition against tank classes. You are against other dps classes.
    I repeat: A dps is not going to lose a spot for a tank so this discussion is kinda senseless.

    Iam not arguing that vengeance might be too strong but srsly. If you go emo about it then i dont know what to say.
    Tank can do dps. I am not against it. In WotLK, tanks did good dps, about 50% or more of what the dps were doing. But a tank shouldn't out dps a dps. Which they are right now. A tank will out dps a dps asap a couple of adds or more then one boss is invovled and its really stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  11. #51
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    How can you be ok with vengeance?
    Personally?

    I'm not. I think it's a fairly slipshod and weak solution and a poor gameplay mechanic in many ways.

    Now...the problem it is designed to solve is very real. DPS damage does scale a lot better for various reasons and that can cause issues with threat as an example.

    But I think there are better solutions that could be used.

    EJL

  12. #52
    I guess some less AoE/cleaving could be taken away from tanks without compromising anything.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Sorry to break it to you, but tanks are top dps on 8 out of 16 fights. And they are beating dps by mile on some. Playing wrong?
    Yes, a tank never tops in my raid.
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    FOR THE HORDE!!!

  14. #54
    If you have a tank, who tops dps charts - your damage dealers have l2p issues.

  15. #55
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...10111111000000

    Take a look. And think about it rather then spouting "AMG HOW CAN YOU BE MAD OF TANK DPS??"
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  16. #56
    Warchief Zethras's Avatar
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    I'm truly at a loss for words at why have extra damage during a boss fight can even be remotely considered a bad thing.

    DPS pride? Suck it up sally, you have the easiest job out of the 3.

    If a healer dies, it's usually going to cause a wipe.

    If a tank dies, it's most definitely going to cause a wipe.

    If a dps dies, not all is lost.

    During one of my guilds Wind Lord kills, our mage decided it would be an amazing idea to stand in the whirling blade and die a horrible death. Our RL told us to just keep going, and we killed him with 2 seconds left on the enrage.

    The whole point i'm trying to make, is that DPS are, 90% of the time, EXPENDABLE. In groups you come at a dime a dozen, and are easily replaceable.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Personally?

    I'm not. I think it's a fairly slipshod and weak solution and a poor gameplay mechanic in many ways.

    Now...the problem it is designed to solve is very real. DPS damage does scale a lot better for various reasons and that can cause issues with threat as an example.

    But I think there are better solutions that could be used.

    EJL
    Pretty much this. There are far better solutions to threat problems then vengeance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  18. #58
    Herald of the Titans RoKPaNda's Avatar
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    No really, wanting tanks to do ass damage, which hinders your raid's progress, is taking selfishness to a whole new level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    And then patch the threat multiplier every new contnent or addon? Thats what vengeance is for to grow with the content and keep it the same level.
    And if you think tank dps gets pushed by dailies then you obv never played a tank or dont know shit about vengeance.
    Little hint: 5k vengeance from questmobs doesnt do shit.
    Really the only thing I can conclude is that they don't know shit about vengeance. Vengeance while doing anything other than fighting a raid boss or an absolutely huge pack of heroic 5-man / challenge mode mobs is irrelevant because it doesn't stack to anything worthwhile.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    The hotfix isn't a nerf (unless you're doing something you shouldn't be). In normal situations, Vengeance won't reach more than 300k. Tanks have over twice that much health. The hotfix isn't going to affect Vengeance under normal circumstances for a long time.
    Well even then it is fine with me.

    I just think back to when heroic elegon was actual progression and 6 sparks were needed to be killed each round and I think - "where would be be without those tank sometimes lol". Also I feel like the only people really crying about this are probably the ones that are used to get a pat on the back for their dps.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Zethras View Post
    I'm truly at a loss for words at why have extra damage during a boss fight can even be remotely considered a bad thing.

    DPS pride? Suck it up sally, you have the easiest job out of the 3.

    If a healer dies, it's usually going to cause a wipe.

    If a tank dies, it's most definitely going to cause a wipe.

    If a dps dies, not all is lost.

    During one of my guilds Wind Lord kills, our mage decided it would be an amazing idea to stand in the whirling blade and die a horrible death. Our RL told us to just keep going, and we killed him with 2 seconds left on the enrage.

    The whole point i'm trying to make, is that DPS are, 90% of the time, EXPENDABLE. In groups you come at a dime a dozen, and are easily replaceable.
    I play a healer in raids sometimes. The resto shaman stepped on a wind bomb and then died to the blade. Everyone was very low, like 2-3%. We healed everyone back to full hp. This was normal though. Stories are like these happen. And yes on tight enrage fights, loosing a dps will cause you to wipe, as you won't be able to beat the enrage.

    Every role has it's purpose and respect. Right now, a dps role is the least satisfying of all cause your tanks out dps you asap some little adds hit them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

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