DPS gear of the same item level has the same amount of stam though, but yes
DPS gear of the same item level has the same amount of stam though, but yes
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FuriousG
What choice do you have? Either you are okay with it. Or you can quit. DPS isnt everything
Respectfully, they balance around the potential they measure within each of the classes and specs. They may not balance around the specific meters we use, but that's just quibbling over semantics; they balance over the output and power of each spec, and that means the measured output of those specs is relevant and meaningful. I agree that vengeance isn't conceptually a problem, just not because of the reasons you cited
@Voyager: I do realize that, and I acknowledge the difference... mostly I'm trying to get a feel for whether it's a result of the tank doing damage at all that's causing people to be upset, or simply because it's something that no longer requires a specific buff/debuff unique to the encounter to reach those levels of damage. Given that it doesn't seem like fights involving such buffs/debuffs make people upset, the question then becomes: Are tanks actually regularly out-dpsing DPS specialists on regular non-gimmick fights? (As an example, I consider Wind Lord to be a gimmick fight, as it involves a large amount of AoE.... and I was out-damaging DPS specialists in TBC on a prot pally, before vengeance was ever dreamed of, so it's clearly not a good measure.) If the answer is actually yes, THEN we can debate how much of a problem it actually is. I just posed the question to remind people that tanks have been out-damaging DPS on specific fights for a long time, so that we can try to narrow down the exact nature of the problem and why it may or may not be an issue.
As another question, how would people feel about Vengeance scaling off of healing received instead of damage done? Assume (even if such a thing is impossible) that it were balanced in such a way that it resulted in numbers roughly comparable to what we see today on single-target fights. In that case, tanks would still be doing large numbers, but would be explicitly dependent on their healers for it.
Alternatively, what if the vengeance scaling were based on how much threat the dps generated? The further ahead of the dps the tank is on threat, the less damage dealt; the closer the dps get in threat, the more damage the tank does. Such a system would accomplish Vengeance's goal of allowing the tank's dps to scale to prevent threat creep (far more directly), and would still increase the tank's dps... but in this case, the tank's dps gain would be directly tied to the strongest dps in the raid.
Those both have major problems with them. The problem isn't the mechanic, nor is it average tank DPS on most fights.
How about this solution: Reduce AP scaling on damage abilities by 50%, increase base damage on those same abilities by 300% (obviously numbers are an example, can be tweaked). Tank damage when questing and when initially picking up adds will increase. Tank damage when threat is established and maintained will decrease up to 50% on Wind Lord-type fights. Off-tanks will do more DPS. Average DPS on medium-vengeance fights will remain the same.
It sounds an awful lot like you are mad you got kicked out of a raid because you were doing less dps than the tank. If you know how to play your class you should beat the tank in DPS even with vengeance. It makes it easier to tell the bads apart!
While the OP's ire may be (slightly) misdirected towards Vengeance, his complaint isn't inaccurate. Blizzard has made it part of the design, since Wrath, that tanks be able to DPS. This was done largely because tanks complained that they felt they weren't contributing enough (read to mean they wanted to see big numbers). Blizzard also felt that giving tanks viable DPS would make them more attractive to people who were on the fence about leveling one.
Currently DK's and Brewmaster Monks produce very competitive DPS on just about all trash fights in both Vaults and HoF. On Boss fights, depending on the mechanics (number of adds, ect), they can be competitive. Generally, however, DPS SHOULD beat out tanks given an equal gear level on boss fights.
And no I don't think there is a problem. Mostly because current raids mechanics are designed with the philosophy that tanks can also DPS (to an extent).
A level 90 tank will never, ever, ever cap its vengeance, ever. A tank would have to be taking far more damage than it could ever hope to live through in order to do so. The hotfix to cap vengeance at tank health was to fix level 80s tanking level 90 content. A level 90 tank has... what? 600k HP? 500? 450? 700? It doesn't matter, I've never even seen vengeance go over 140k yet.
1) its being nerfed in 5.2
2) why do you even care? as long as you down the boss you really shouldnt give a shit about numbers...
3) did you not think that perhaps you are just a terrible DPS? or that the tank/s are amazingly geared?
4) read the bottom part of my sig
honestly, the e-peen flexing of some people borders on obscene...
It's amazing how short sighted some of the people in this thread are; tanks doing high damage = higher raid dps = boss dies faster = healers are happier = raid gets loot. People who cry about meters in my guild get warned once, and if it happens again, the paladins set up a BoP rotation for them during heroism for physical dps and a priest life grip rotation for casters.
Well, I know that Vengance sucks, but never happened our tanks had more DPS than we (10H group).
Either your tank focus too much on dpsing and not surviving or you are not fully dpsing using your class advantage. I dont know thats the cause of your dps loss / that you are worse dps than your tank but, there is something wrong. IF you both have equally same items than you shall outperform tank.
I would like to point your attention to the video of the 80 Pally soloing MOP raids. If you watch the video, the pally takes very little damage. He is/was able to solo because of Vengeance. Your argument is invalid and your logic is flawed.
And the reason tanks are picking up DPS gear and ignoring "traditional tank stats" is because of the new model of Active Mitigation. Currently, a prot paladin gets more survivability from Haste then from Dodge.
If a tank is out-dpsing you, you're doing something very wrong.
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