If a tank is out-dpsing you, you're doing something very wrong.
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Bdk Nagrand / Astae Nagrand
Pokemon X FC: 4656-7679-2545/Trainer Name: Keno
Here I thought we play as a TEAM against bosses? To beat them? Now we argue about e-peen on dps meters?
"It’s not the job of the artist to give the audience what the audience wants. If the audience knew what they needed, then they wouldn’t be the audience. They would be the artists. It is the job of artists to give the audience what they need."
— Alan Moore
Personally I think that implementing Vengeance system was just plain stupid. Period.
I don't really understand why of all roles tanks must get free AP everytime they are being hit. There is absolutely no logic in that.
Let my healer get free SP each time I'm hit by aoe. For what reason? So I just can top my meters and outdps damage dealers with my smite, with further lols and humiliating.
Back to good old times tanks had to manage their dps/threat by actual clever and skilled playing. Gearing dps stuff, learning to use proper rotations of skills and so on. Nowadays all the tank has to do to get tons of free damage burst is just stand there and receive hits in face. Not that in my raid tanks outdps damage dealers. No. But they are doing 70-80% of damage dealt by damage dealer class. That is just plain stupid. The same idiocy that was with healing of prot pala (and brewmaster nowadays).
I think every role in raid should do only its role, and personally I don't like when another role is doing my work just because of crap game design. Tanks must receive hits in face, healers must heal, damage dealers must deal damage. Period. We already have all this kind of idiocy in WoW PvP, where healers are tanks, tanks are dd, and dd are healers. Please, don't spread this shit in PvE.
To get your respect back you need to do one thing: Learn to play. I haven't seen a tank top me on damage meter since I've hit level 90. Playing mage.
When I played pally tank, before Vengeance ect. I topped dmg meter in 5 mans 100% of the time, was that better? I never understood the point of vengeance, threat was more fun when it mattered. When tanks had to work to gain it, and DPS had to be careful not to pull aggro.
In raids I didn't win damage meter. And tanks these days certanly don't.
Let me tell you its fucking stressfull. Not the DPS no but staying alive, rotating cds and using your class smart so healers are not oom after 1 minute.
But hey it ok.
Whine about tanks all day until we get our dps in half and 1000% aggro modifier.
I wont be the one making threads begging blizzard to fix 1hr long random que for dps.
I will still get my instant invite
theres only two fights i get outdps'd by tanks windlord and shekzeer. whats the problem again?
Why do you care so much if a member of your own raid out dpses you? Shouldn't that be a good thing? And due to mechanics it will only be 1-2 tanks doing it.
Vengaence has a prediction mechanic to it that will attempt to measure the average white hit that a boss does should you avoid it. This is based on a set swing timer that is not necessarily related to the boss swing timer.
This prediction mechanic also ignores yellow attacks, meaning if you avoid one, you dont get the full amount of vengaence. I believe this is also limitied to a 60 second timer.
It works nothing like how you described, and if you do the maths, you will find that the less avoidance you have, the faster you will gain vengaence.
I agree, reverting to resource starved avoidance tanking while doing shit damage is definitely the way to go. While we're at it, we can pick school immunities per tier out of a tombola, and bring back debuff caps.
Did it occur to OP that your tanks doing good damage is actually pretty cool? If you're struggling to outdamage them currently, you don't have a prayer at meeting any significant enrage without them. It's worth taking into consideration, sadly.
Here is the advice to OP from healer.
Don't stay in fire.
GC said it was so tank gear could roughly scale with dps gear in terms of threat generation. I believe this is a load of tosh. If they wanted to focus on scaling threat generation, they could of made vengaence a threat multiplier instead of an attack power multiplier.
The REAL reason vengance was created was because tanks were becoming sparse and they used a "fun dps mechanic" (because most people like playing dps and seeing big numbers) to entice more players to play tanks.
This has actually worked because LFD times are not tremendously long and the tanks in my guild love outdpsing dpsers on certain fights and ranking in WoL. They arent giving their tanks up anytime soon.
Think of vengaence as a fun factor for tanks to encourage people to play this "thankless" role. It's also a very clever implementation because of the way that it only works on tanks that are actually tanking. This prevents guilds stacking tanks for dps gains.
Thats the real reason vengance was implemented
@howdy - Not sure why you'd address that specifically to me, but given the choice between siding with GC and a forum random, I'd probably flip a coin. Try to take this as a positive/compliment.
Didn't really need any such motivation to continue tanking, and luckily the decent tanks will continue to do it regardless. Now we just have another tool for carrying suspect DPS.
Isn't much else to add to a thread such as this though, which I suspect wasn't actually an attempt to start a discussion in the first place, so...
Last edited by Frozen Death Knight; 2013-01-13 at 01:47 PM.
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Avoidance is not the same as mitigation.
Different levels of avoidance DO change the pace at which vengaence stacks.
Unbelievable how many people don't understand there is a difference between avoidance and mitigation. I thought this was just basic common sense knowledge? Wow.
It seems logical to assume that if they only wanted it for threat purposes, they could of made vengaence a threat modifier instead of an attack power modifer.
And I did say it's what I believe, i didnt say it was 5000% set in stone correct. I'm just working off logical assumptions. You gotta be some kind of fool to believe that what everything GC says is true.
He has one goal - Appease and please the community so profits are high. If he started saying things like "there are tank shortages, we need to buff tanks to make them fun so more people start playing them", then that would negatively affect profits.
But ye, was just my opinion why they implemented it, rather than just for "the threat" reason.
---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 01:55 PM ----------
The less avoidance you have, the faster more vengeance stacks.
Anyway, said my piece, there are lots of uneducated people posting in this forum. Cba explaining the avoidance mechanics time and time again to everyone individually.