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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire Rheckameohs's Avatar
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    A question regarding Retribution

    Hey howdy.

    For the longest time, I've gemmed pure strength on my Ret paladin, and so far it's worked out rather well in heroics. However, starting next week I'm going to start taking him into raids with my guild, so I was wondering if I should consider swapping out his gems?

    The general consensus as I see it is that raiding Rets should gem for mostly haste in yellow slots, strength + haste in red slots, and hit + haste in blue slots. Is there any weight to this, or am I being lied to?

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk
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    No, that's exactly right. It's because of how they changed gems this expansion. Secondary stats have twice the amount of primary stats on gems.

  3. #3
    There is a weight (literally a stat weight - punny) and it's true. Aside from JC gems, going pure haste > pure strength will and should be an upgrade for a while. For most people it seems that beyond 9-10k rating haste starts to become less valuable than strength. This is mostly due to higher amounts of secondary stats in MOP. While strength is "worth more" than haste, it's not twice as good, and therefore when you can get 320 haste or 160 strength the haste is more overall calue.

    For example: lets say for you strength is worth 5 and haste worth 3. If you could only have 1 point in either you would take strength. But when you can have 1*5 or 2*3, it's easy to see which to pick.

    TLDR: yes, switch, but sim your own character first for reassurance.
    Errr

  4. #4
    askmrrobot.com
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  5. #5
    If you sim your character and can do the math to see if haste is >1/2STR then askmrrobot is rendered useless. Haste in yellow sockets, hit haste in blue, strength haste in red. ReforgeLite to reforge for you in game.
    Errr

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rheckameohs View Post
    Hey howdy.

    For the longest time, I've gemmed pure strength on my Ret paladin, and so far it's worked out rather well in heroics. However, starting next week I'm going to start taking him into raids with my guild, so I was wondering if I should consider swapping out his gems?

    The general consensus as I see it is that raiding Rets should gem for mostly haste in yellow slots, strength + haste in red slots, and hit + haste in blue slots. Is there any weight to this, or am I being lied to?
    If you're currently gemmed *correctly* with strength and matching to get socket bonuses (for example strength+haste gems) you will see only a TINY increase in dps from switching you gems. Off the top of my head, I'd guesstimate half of a one percent dps increase. If your guild is JUST starting raiding you probably severely overgear the content and I honestly wouldnt waste my gold switching for such a negligible increase.

  7. #7
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    If you sim your character and can do the math to see if haste is >1/2STR then askmrrobot is rendered useless. Haste in yellow sockets, hit haste in blue, strength haste in red. ReforgeLite to reforge for you in game.
    Not really. You can just take the stat weights that Simcraft gives you and edit them in to your AMR profile.

  8. #8
    Well yeah but if you go through everything to do it for yourself, I feel like AMR would be inconvenient and an in game reforger would help.
    Errr

  9. #9
    Instead of starting a new thread I have a similar question as well. People say generally go haste until ~9-10k mark. As a rule of thumb I always sim my toon to see how the weights are. What my sims are coming up are no where close to telling me to gem haste and was curious if anyone knows why. It's not even coming up close to say Crit = Mastery instead it's showing crit massively outweighing. As you can also see even if I multiple the secondary stats by 2 to see how the pure gem outweighs it, it's still not close as it's still shy by 0.41

    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...cetia/advanced

    Weapon DPS: 4.56
    Strength: 2.37
    Haste: 0.98
    Crit: 0.84
    Mastery: 0.67

    Even after doing the reforge plots it's showing the more I go Haste -> STR my dps goes up and if I go STR -> Haste my dps goes down. Right now I'm just completely baffled about how running a sim on my toon comes nowhere close to the "suggestive weights".

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Instead of starting a new thread I have a similar question as well. People say generally go haste until ~9-10k mark. As a rule of thumb I always sim my toon to see how the weights are. What my sims are coming up are no where close to telling me to gem haste and was curious if anyone knows why. It's not even coming up close to say Crit = Mastery instead it's showing crit massively outweighing. As you can also see even if I multiple the secondary stats by 2 to see how the pure gem outweighs it, it's still not close as it's still shy by 0.41

    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...cetia/advanced

    Weapon DPS: 4.56
    Strength: 2.37
    Haste: 0.98
    Crit: 0.84
    Mastery: 0.67

    Even after doing the reforge plots it's showing the more I go Haste -> STR my dps goes up and if I go STR -> Haste my dps goes down. Right now I'm just completely baffled about how running a sim on my toon comes nowhere close to the "suggestive weights".
    I believe it has to do with your weapon as well. Higher weapon damage does quite a bit.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Banzubie View Post
    I believe it has to do with your weapon as well. Higher weapon damage does quite a bit.
    That's what I'm hoping and may try simming it with a raid weapon to see. Right now I've been running LFR as much as I can and double rolling on Elegon's and Sha's weapon and still nothing >>

    I was just wondering if there was something else related to it other than weapon since I have all epic pieces minus the cruddy weapon.
    Last edited by Lucetia; 2013-01-15 at 03:31 AM.

  12. #12
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regen View Post
    Well yeah but if you go through everything to do it for yourself, I feel like AMR would be inconvenient and an in game reforger would help.
    Well, AMR does everything (i.e. enchants and gems) in addition to reforging, based on the stat weights it's been given. I guess I just prefer to get all of the information I need from one place.

    I've never actually used ReforgeLite, though. Does it actually do the reforging for you, or does it just give you a list of "reforge this item this way"?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Well, AMR does everything (i.e. enchants and gems) in addition to reforging, based on the stat weights it's been given. I guess I just prefer to get all of the information I need from one place.

    I've never actually used ReforgeLite, though. Does it actually do the reforging for you, or does it just give you a list of "reforge this item this way"?
    It does the reforge for you, open up the reforger and the addon pops up, and you can choose to use one of the inbuilt templates which work off an "easy mode" where its stat1>stat2, etc, or you can put in simmed values for each of the stats, press "calculate" button and then "reforge" button

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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Instead of starting a new thread I have a similar question as well. People say generally go haste until ~9-10k mark. As a rule of thumb I always sim my toon to see how the weights are. What my sims are coming up are no where close to telling me to gem haste and was curious if anyone knows why. It's not even coming up close to say Crit = Mastery instead it's showing crit massively outweighing. As you can also see even if I multiple the secondary stats by 2 to see how the pure gem outweighs it, it's still not close as it's still shy by 0.41

    -snip-

    Weapon DPS: 4.56
    Strength: 2.37
    Haste: 0.98
    Crit: 0.84
    Mastery: 0.67

    Even after doing the reforge plots it's showing the more I go Haste -> STR my dps goes up and if I go STR -> Haste my dps goes down. Right now I'm just completely baffled about how running a sim on my toon comes nowhere close to the "suggestive weights".
    Unable to post links current but when I sim'd you, it came up as

    Wspeed 429.57
    Wdps 6.01
    Hit 3.32
    Str 2.81
    Exp 2.01
    Haste 1.32
    Crit 1.01
    Mastery 0.91

    Not sure what you're doing to get your results.

  15. #15
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firegalus View Post
    It does the reforge for you, open up the reforger and the addon pops up, and you can choose to use one of the inbuilt templates which work off an "easy mode" where its stat1>stat2, etc, or you can put in simmed values for each of the stats, press "calculate" button and then "reforge" button
    My issue with it is that it doesn't have an option for "as close to hit cap as possible without going over", so sometimes I end up with 7.7% hit. I just use the manual website way.

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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Serani View Post
    Unable to post links current but when I sim'd you, it came up as

    Wspeed 429.57
    Wdps 6.01
    Hit 3.32
    Str 2.81
    Exp 2.01
    Haste 1.32
    Crit 1.01
    Mastery 0.91

    Not sure what you're doing to get your results.
    I have it set to the following settings:

    Iterations: 50,000
    World Lag: Low
    Length (sec): 450
    Vary Length: 20%
    Fight Style: HelterSkelter
    Target Level: Raid Boss
    Player Skill: Average (due to having an older computer and lag issues and even if I am better than Average it should still give me a rough idea)


    All Buffs/Debuffs Active


    Analyze: Strength, Hit, Exp, Crit, Haste, Mast, Weapon DPS


    No Plots done


    Reforge Amount: 500
    Step Amount: 50


    Plot Reforge for Haste / Str

    Here are the screenshots of what I get:

    Click the link to view as I didn't want to put huge images in the thread. http://tinypic.com/r/jaxi4o/6 and http://tinypic.com/r/k1b97q/6

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Well, AMR does everything (i.e. enchants and gems) in addition to reforging, based on the stat weights it's been given. I guess I just prefer to get all of the information I need from one place.

    I've never actually used ReforgeLite, though. Does it actually do the reforging for you, or does it just give you a list of "reforge this item this way"?
    Does it for you, which is nice.
    Errr

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    I have it set to the following settings:

    Iterations: 50,000
    World Lag: Low
    Length (sec): 450
    Vary Length: 20%
    Fight Style: HelterSkelter
    Target Level: Raid Boss
    Player Skill: Average (due to having an older computer and lag issues and even if I am better than Average it should still give me a rough idea)


    All Buffs/Debuffs Active


    Analyze: Strength, Hit, Exp, Crit, Haste, Mast, Weapon DPS


    No Plots done


    Reforge Amount: 500
    Step Amount: 50


    Plot Reforge for Haste / Str

    Here are the screenshots of what I get:

    Click the link to view as I didn't want to put huge images in the thread. -snip-
    Currently simming with your specs on my ret pally (Inares - Khaz'goroth US), but I noticed something from your screenshots. You have the Inq glyph, I'm not sure if it would change stat values too much, but I wouldn't be too surprised considering how terrible the glyph is for us.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Serani View Post
    Currently simming with your specs on my ret pally (Inares - Khaz'goroth US), but I noticed something from your screenshots. You have the Inq glyph, I'm not sure if it would change stat values too much, but I wouldn't be too surprised considering how terrible the glyph is for us.
    I've tried with various glyphs and still come up with similar results. The Inquisiton glyph isn't really bad as it's basically the same thing just less maintenance and if anything a 1% loss from testing with and without it, but the main purpose of it is to make questing easier as well.

  20. #20
    Taken directly from EJ

    Immediate Truth and Inquisition are significant DPS losses. IT is a loss after approx 5 (yes, five) seconds of combat.

    Doesn't tell what the exact amount of DPS loss is, but it's 15% of any of our Holy damage (includes our mastery).

    Back to stats however, with your setup I came up with

    4.53 WDPS
    3.06 Str
    2.86 Hit
    2.30 Exp
    1.64 Haste
    1.22 Crit
    1.12 Mastery

    That was on my character, I again ran a slightly modified version of your sim options which were (only mentioning changes I had from yours):

    10000 iterations
    Elite player skill

    The results that came up were quite largely different.

    4.30 WDPS
    3.13 Str
    3.04 Hit
    2.42 Exp
    1.72 Haste
    1.21 Crit
    1.19 Mastery

    I would imagine it would be the player skill affecting the stat weights being shifted so much, more so than the iterations, 10000 is still a good stand point.

    Try running with those models, or even just change from Helterskelter to Patchwerk and see how your stat weights go in a theoretical fight.

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