Cow Clicking

[Jtbrig7390]

No particular reason to close it yet. Continue discussing it, move on, or whatever. I'll visit again in the morning.

I didn't mean that in a shitty way.

My point was the OP keeps going one min make hard content then the next wanting everything handled to him. OP just keep flip floping over and over and it has made the thread itself pointless.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

TLDR: "I am a special snowflake and demand the ability to wall the general population off from what I believe is my content."

The fact of the matter is that the game only became popular once the system was relaxed to permit more casual playstyles and see a democratization of the content. The average player is not patient and/or competent enough to spend time on challenge modes, early Cata heroics, etc.

You are looking for competence in places that were designed to be as permissive as possible.

I disagree. I thought one of the highest sub xpacs was in fact TBC.

I also don't see where you are coming from. Do you like how easy this game has become? Cata heroics weren't even that hard. Once you understodd the mechanics, it was actually pretty easy. This is a game that actually reqiured patience, teamwork, and competence. What Blizzard has done is sell out to a crowd that demands "cow clicking=reward" and I believe that is wrong, and a huge middle finger to people who built/loved the original form of the game. I'm all for people seeing the content, but its sad when you wipe in an LFR group and trying to explain the simple mechanics is like trying to get a baby to do algebra, especially when all the info is put into guides on sites like MMO or wowhead, and even in the game via dungeon journal.

I don't know when you started, or what game design you like the best, but you can't pretend like what this poster has said is actually off the mark. If you were a regular of say, Mario, and I posted on their forums demanding a talent system for Mario how would you react? Or going the opposite route of Farmville, and demand their to be tactics/talents/boss fights in a game like that? Its just sad.

WoW in vanilla was even called one of the "easier" types of MMO's. What has become of it now?

I guess Blizzard got what they wanted when they said they wanted heroics to be easy enough that you could run a few on your lunch break.

[MoanaLisa]

Crawford, here's the bottom line on all of this:

Find nine or twenty-four people who can be counted on to show up twice a week at least and go forth to raid normal modes. If you can manage this it completely doesn't matter if you're one guild in 100 on a server doing it or the only guild. Once you finish up normal, head for heroics. Make a pact about not running LFR if you must. But the problem does not lie with Blizzard or the design of the game. There are more options than ever before for doing the things you want to do.

So go do the work that you need to do to do that and stop looking everywhere but within for the solution to your problem.

[Immitis]

I disagree. I thought one of the highest sub xpacs was in fact TBC.

I also don't see where you are coming from. Do you like how easy this game has become? Cata heroics weren't even that hard. Once you understodd the mechanics, it was actually pretty easy. This is a game that actually reqiured patience, teamwork, and competence. What Blizzard has done is sell out to a crowd that demands "cow clicking=reward" and I believe that is wrong, and a huge middle finger to people who built/loved the original form of the game. I'm all for people seeing the content, but its sad when you wipe in an LFR group and trying to explain the simple mechanics is like trying to get a baby to do algebra, especially when all the info is put into guides on sites like MMO or wowhead, and even in the game via dungeon journal.

I don't know when you started, or what game design you like the best, but you can't pretend like what this poster has said is actually off the mark. If you were a regular of say, Mario, and I posted on their forums demanding a talent system for Mario how would you react? Or going the opposite route of Farmville, and demand their to be tactics/talents/boss fights in a game like that? Its just sad.

WoW in vanilla was even called one of the "easier" types of MMO's. What has become of it now?

I guess Blizzard got what they wanted when they said they wanted heroics to be easy enough that you could run a few on your lunch break.

the highest subs were technically in cata. after cata launched wow rose to 13 million subscribers, the first quarter of cataclysm that number had already gone down.

wrath had the highest amount of subs at its end with 12 million

[Crawford]

Not quite. You already admitted that the point of playing WoW as opposed to other games (where you could also face challenges and win) is that you want to be special. You want to stand out.... moreover, you want other people to stop and gawk at how awesome you are, and you're upset that LFR and the like have reduced the amount of people who do that. I'm not particularly sympathetic.

Well, I do play other games. And I play a lot less WoW than I used to.

The attraction of a persistent world is persistent, meaningful accomplishments. Beating normal mode Ragnaros in 4.2 with my guild felt like a meaningful accomplishment. Beating Jin'Do in 4.1 Zul Gurub felt like a meaningful accomplishment. I do think requiring Cata heroics as a daily valor grind was unpleasant, but I liked them a lot as a route for gear progression. I'd like to see dungeons tuned for organized groups as part of the gear progression. I think it would be nice if that was a parallel/alternative to LFR.

I also don't think the interest is there for normal raids anymore. The ease of getting similar gear and seeing similar encounters makes it much harder to organize guilds around normal-mode raids, and there is nothing in any of the current scenarios, dungeons, LFR or daily quests that approximates the enjoyment of success in previous heroic dungeons or normal raids.

I'm finding RBGs feel much more rewarding than raids right now. They're organized around cross-server friend lists rather than guilds, I can play with people from other servers without transferring, and there's a sense of real stakes and competition across a range of skill levels and commitment levels.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

the highest subs were technically in cata. after cata launched wow rose to 13 million subscribers, the first quarter of cataclysm that number had already gone down.

wrath had the highest amount of subs at its end with 12 million

Fair enough, but I am quite sure I saw a subscription report, and BC was quite high on that list. Either way, am I wrong anywhere else in my thoughts lol?

[Immitis]

Fair enough, but I am quite sure I saw a subscription report, and BC was quite high on that list. Either way, am I wrong anywhere else in my thoughts lol?

i understand how it can be frustrating to deal with people in lfr however wow was and always has will be the easy game. the mmo genre has just changed since the days of everquest and wow had to become even easier to fit the norm.

they didnt sell out to this crowd. they were already catering to this crowd. they always intended for wow to be as easy and accessible as possible.

[Jawless Jones]

i think the OP as a serious case of "rose colored goggles with lenses in the shape of a particularly special snowflake syndrome"

you think 'easy' content started with LFR? clearly you havent played an expansion called wotlk

you think 4.0 heroics were hard? did you try taking 1.5 seconds to poly/fear/repentence/trap some mobs? 4.0 was a piece of piss...

[Hotasianchick]

I am no special snowflake i am a blue collar snowflake and i have more time than most of the people in my guild but the rep grind to open gear possibilities was a bit much. It was without a doubt a reward for playing non stop .
My guilds holy pali who was in our main raid group from t 9 - @&^$#%# dragonsoul cant evan cap his toon each week on vp or evan come close . HA HA wow we replaced him so cool a good friend who was a beast pali got reemed out of his raid spot after 2 + years.
I needed 150 vp after today when i checked i had already ran a dungeon think i got 80 vp off it but so OMG 4 more dungeons before raid ... I NEED TIME TO EAT .
If your happy with the state of the game I HATE YOU er maybe not that bad but sigh why did things get this bad . Did suddenly a bunch of people go OMG i love taking the time away from my life to play wow all day long cause i have to do this or this .

[Deleted]

the highest subs were technically in cata. after cata launched wow rose to 13 million subscribers, the first quarter of cataclysm that number had already gone down.

wrath had the highest amount of subs at its end with 12 million

Pretty hard to judge how successful an expansion is based on subs at the start or end, half of the subs at the end of one expansion are re-subbed players that are getting ready for the next expansion, likewise, after a terrible expansion like Cata, you're unlikely to see some people that have been put off by it subbing at the start of MOP, they might sub later on after word of mouth has spread the fact that MOP is, unlike cataclysm, not a complete and utter disaster.

TBC was certainly healthy though, mmos were significantly more niche than they are now - they were the domain of your satan worshipping, basement dwelling D'n'D players who went out and larped, or so the common perception seemed to be. It was a huge success for it's time, so the model worked. That said - the same can be said for each following expansion, they've all had grossly healthy subs, even if blizzard have made a complete mess of things like Cata, I wouldn't unsub, because I still enjoy what little there is that they didn't mess up.

My guilds holy pali who was in our main raid group from t 9 - @&^$#%# dragonsoul cant evan cap his toon each week on vp or evan come close . HA HA wow we replaced him so cool a good friend who was a beast pali got reemed out of his raid spot after 2 + years.

VP capping takes what, 3-5 hours a week when pugging, less with a guild group? Raiding has always required a time investment, nothing new there.

[MoanaLisa]

Re: BC popularity and Raiding

The only thing to be careful of about discussing the popularity of BC is to equate its rise with the difficulty of its raids. There are many reasons why BC was popular, not least of which was the penetration of broadband into urban/suburban households. The one reason I can think of that probably doesn't have a lot to with why BC had 10,000,000+ subs is raiding as only a very tiny percentage of people ever really saw those raids to start with and end game bosses were even less.

A lot of people make this connection that difficult raids = sole reason for high subscriptions and then point to BC as evidence. It's annoying and demonstrably wrong.

[Immitis]

Re: BC popularity and Raiding

The only thing to be careful of about discussing the popularity of BC is to equate its rise with the difficulty of its raids. There are many reasons why BC was popular, not least of which was the penetration of broadband into urban/suburban households. The one reason I can think of that probably doesn't have a lot to with why BC had 10,000,000+ subs is raiding as only a very tiny percentage of people ever really saw those raids to start with and end game bosses were even less.

A lot of people make this connection that difficult raids = sole reason for high subscriptions and then point to BC as evidence. It's annoying and demonstrably wrong.

didnt the south park episode also come out right around bc? i know blizzard has said that wows popularity really jumped after that episode aired

[MoanaLisa]

didnt the south park episode also come out right around bc? i know blizzard has said that wows popularity really jumped after that episode aired

That's probably one part of it. I don't want to derail the thread so I'll just stick with what I said originally: There were a lot of reasons to explain why WoW took off the way it did. Ascribing its success to any one thing in particular, especially one thing that most people never participated in, is simply wrong.

[Deleted]

I agree with Crawford.

And some comments to add. I never saw Sunwell, or Grull or Tempest Keep or Black Temple when they were relevant content. I barely finished Kara and ZA and visited Maggy once since someone needed extra dps and I was lucky to get in (not lucky to kill him, mind you). Later on, in Wrath, I saw Naxx and we got it to farming status just 2 weeks before next patch. Then for Ulduar I did some hardmodes but never saw Algalon. Heck, I only saw him well into Cataclysm! For ToCr I mostly finished it on heroic, and for ICC got 2 parts down on heroic, but this was mostly because I had 1 year to do it.

Yet you know what? I never complained. I never said "hey, I payed for this too, make it easier to I can see it". You know why? Because that's a dumb argument. I payed to play the game, I didn't pay to see everything, that's what my skill gets me. If I tried hard, I saw the content, if not, I went to youtube. But I never felt entitled to it because I knew I simply wasn't skilled enough yet to see it. Once new gear came, or a new expansion came, I could see it too. But while it was current content I could not, because I just didn't play good enough. And you know what? I never thought of people who did see it as special snowflakes and I don't think people who want to be better from others because they're more skilled to be snowflakes. I think they're normal and they're right. Difference should be made on skill, not on how many hours you sit and click crap over and over.

[Deleted]

The one reason I can think of that probably doesn't have a lot to with why BC had 10,000,000+ subs is raiding as only a very tiny percentage of people ever really saw those raids to start with and end game bosses were even less.

A lot of people make this connection that difficult raids = sole reason for high subscriptions and then point to BC as evidence. It's annoying and demonstrably wrong.

I don't think anyones making that claim, unless they're a fool.

It does mean difficult raids =/= no subs, they certainly equal enough to keep the game more than healthy.

TBC isn't proof that hard raids that no one ever sees = subs.
It's proof that hard raids that no one sees don't mean that the game suddenly dies, since it grew immensely during the time.

The trick is to have plenty of other content, TBC ALWAYS had something to be doing, it was very alt friendly if you were casual and the dungeons, variety of rep factions and the fantastic crafting system meant even without raiding, you could always be progressing your character in some way or another.

That said, I keep finding myself arguing on the "side" of people wanting easy raids gone, which I don't want - I just want hard raids to remain in the form of heroics. LFR is the best thing to happen to heroic raiders in years, anyone wanting it gone is making the most asinine argument imaginable.

I do disagree strongly with the people that argue that there needs to be an easy raid level as if it's the only thing that stops WoW from dying though, it's great - it's definitely better for me since it gives blizzard an excuse to give me heroic raid content since the same thing can be fed to the rest of the playerbase too, but WoW did fine in previous expansions without that. I do agree that, like flying mounts, the cat has been let out of the bag now - taking raids away from the casual playerbase after letting them have it, probably wouldn't kill WoW, but it would be a helluva lot of backlash, and for reasons I've stated plenty, there's no reason to want to put the cat in the bag because it's helping heroic raiders more than anything else that has ever been in the game.

[Lora]

So, putting the incoherence of that wall of text aside... You really compared WoW to Farmville? I'm pretty sure Blizzard didn't model part of the game after it. As for cata dungeons being hard, I never once used or saw someone use CC in any of them. Nor did I in Wrath for that matter. BC and Vanilla had "hard" dungeons/ For challenge modes now though, those are indeed hard and the only people interested is the people with skill to do them. You say how LFR is ruining the game for people who want to experience content and I just don't see that. Maybe you're not unique in seeing the end boss of a raid anymore but does that really bother you? If so, that's kinda hilarious. I've been around since vanilla time and throughout the entirety of the game I never experienced any less fun just because other people were able to do raid bosses. It actually makes me happy having people do them because it leads to discussions and conversations. WoW isn't just about the game but also the social aspect.

[The Glitch]

That's not even on point at all. I don't need to be the best in the world. I've never been able to maintain that level of commitment.

But there needs to be something in between heroic raiders and LFR scrubs, and right now, there really isn't. The game rewards performance among the super-committed and time-investment for everyone else.

I want to be a good player, and I want to be able to earn distinctions for being a good player. Challenge modes would be fantastic, if they were part of the progression path. As it is, almost nobody attempts them.

There used to be guilds that mostly progressed in the normal modes, raiding one or two nights a week. Those guilds are gone on most servers. Those people now gear in the LFR and then maybe PuG down some of the normal bosses later on.

Keep your ridiculous nonsense to yourself please. Have a bit of respect for other players and how they wish to play the game, Vast majority of people I know that use LFR (including myself) are good players, old raiders, that have spent the last 7 years playing this game, and are now at a point in their life where scheduled raiding just doesn't fit in. While LFR is not particularly challenging, it lets those of us that no longer have the time, beable to keep a small amount of progression going on their characters, and see content, that I know I certainly wouldn't be seeing if LFR didn't exsist, due to time restraints.

LFR is in my opinion a fantastic feature, for all of the above reasons.

[Crawford]

I didn't mean that in a shitty way.

My point was the OP keeps going one min make hard content then the next wanting everything handled to him. OP just keep flip floping over and over and it has made the thread itself pointless.

I don't want anything handed to me.

I like challenges to conquer. I do not like time-sinks.

Daily quests, scenarios, MoP dungeons and LFR feel like Farmville to me. Doing these things do not feel meaningful. The rewards earned through doing these things do not feel meaningful.

I'm not even saying LFR should be taken away from the masses, though I would like it to feel more like raiding and less like just doing nothing and getting loot. I think maybe it should occupy a space in progression below dungeons, and the dungeons should be more effort-intensive.

What do you think I am saying I want handed to me?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

i understand how it can be frustrating to deal with people in lfr however wow was and always has will be the easy game. the mmo genre has just changed since the days of everquest and wow had to become even easier to fit the norm.

they didnt sell out to this crowd. they were already catering to this crowd. they always intended for wow to be as easy and accessible as possible.

I understand this, but are you okay with this? Video games get more and more popular. Old people, young people, men, women, nerds, jocks, girly girls, EVERYONE is playing them. But does this mean its okay to totally sell out like this?

Blizzards ads for the new, even easier WoW!

"BC Heroics got ya down? Is putting CC on your bars and using them too hard? Is wiping totally lame? Well have we got news for you! Wrath heroics just require your whole team to run at mob packs and hit your AOE spell over and over! CC? What the hell is that!? Healing? Who cares?! Block, dodge and parry? WHATS THAT!? Just stack health! Don't like being helpful, nice or responsible in groups? We have LFD now! You can port in naked and scream obscenities the whole team now!!! Want to raid, but don't feel like taking the time to apply in a whisper, or online to a good guild? Who cares! Now just afk through our new LFR system! Get easy loot and see the story! "

I know its over the top, but I really don't feel like any of the heroics were ever too hard. I sometimes had to tank in BC with no pants/chest just so I could get mana back. Cata heroics weren't hard, unless you think dying at all, ever = too hard. I don't think I am a special snowflake, but the state of the game in general is something that effects us all. If I wanted to play a farmville game, I would play that. I don't hate casuals, or want them kicked out, or scared away, but there has to be a point when things just get TOO EASY for anyone. In fact, if anyone is a special snowflake, its those casuals that want the whole game to cater to them and their schedules.

In Vanilla I was still in high school. I had AP/honors classes. I was on the wrestling team at the 145lb weight class. I had a girlfriend. I had a job at a fast food place. I had a group of best friends that I had met in ROTC/Engineering core classes. We got together and played Risk/Monopoly/Halo/ once a week or so. I was in Boy Scout and am now an Eagle scout. I joined WoW around patch 1.4 or something. I never remember bitching about any of the stuff people are upset about now. Didn't have enough time to raid because of school? I was just happy that I ever got to at all. That my guild let some nooby like me join. I was courteous. I always had food/pots/reagents/repair money/an extra weapon etc. I was on time. I tried my best to learn my class and know what to do. I talked to my class officer and other players to learn my class/boss fights. I asked what I could do better if we wiped, or what I could do to improve. SOMEHOW I could do these simple tasks in WoW, even with a tough schedule.

I don't miss everything about older versions of WoW, but I miss lots of things about it. Sorry to ramble.

[Deleted]

I like challenges to conquer. I do not like time-sinks.

Then look for a casual raiding guild that raids however many hours a week you can spare.

If you've both a) not got enough time to spare to raid and b) not got the motivation to find a guild that fits what time you do have, then that's simply not blizzards fault.

There's challenge there, you're just not doing it and instead being picky and wanting it elsewhere.

Challenging content in WoW has always required time, you're going to have to wipe on stuff - the only way it wouldn't take time was if you romped in and 1 shot things, which is by definition - not challenging.

Failing that, challenge modes are surprisingly challenging AND need to be done on a strict time limit, go do that.

Quests never were and never will be challenging.
Dungeons used to be, and still ARE challenging - if you play challenge modes.
Raids have always required time, and are still very much challenging.

How you've played the game and seem to think this is some new "problem" with MOP is beyond me, it's always been like this, if you've bought a car and then complained that it doesn't handle like a jeep, it's not the manufacturers job to make it into one. You've bought the wrong thing.

Either go and play the plentiful challenging content that is there, or stop complaining about there being some easy content in the game and you being hellbent on that being the content you play and wanting it to cater to your desire for challenge, despite it being available elsewhere. It makes about as much sense as people wanting content they can chill out and relax while doing, without paying much attention - but it MUST be heroic raids that provides that, no - daily quests and scenarios are not good enough. It needs to be heroic raids.