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  1. #1

    Death Knights Neglected This Whole Time

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...83837920825346
    It's not about DKs specifically. It's just a good example of the consequences of giving players exactly what they want.
    It appears that my initial assumption has turned out to be true. Ghostcrawler and other developers have been blatantly ignoring all DK player feedback since MoP beta. Perhaps this is why death knights are in such a bad state currently. Sure our damage is good, but that is not enough to justify not listening to player feedback about other things. There are still a lot of underlying problems with this class as a whole.

    Rune System - Although cool and arguably the most unique resource of all classes in the game, there a major flaws with the resource; they are very limiting. They are limiting to the point where it has stalled all development and creativity for the class as far as new skills and abilities go. Sure we have runic power, but it has gotten to the point where runes aren't even a main focus anymore and everything just costs runic power because of the limiting factor of runes. We take a look at paladin, shaman, or priest for example who have mana which essentially a unlimited resource that can always be automatically and manually replenished at will. Compared to our runes, sure they regenerate but we can only use them once before we have to wait a good 5-6 seconds before we can use them again. Think of it this way, the more abilities we get the less of them we can use because all of our core hitting abilities cost runes. Runic power is also not unlimited and forcing everything else to cost runic power results in us never having any to spend.

    Sure runes were a cool concept and its partly the reason so many people enjoy this class so much including myself. I don't think the solution is to get rid of runes altogether, but rather to upgrade them or add more variation on them; perhaps adding shadow runes or a type of empowered rune that can will let you use a super ability every couple minutes. It really doesn't matter but something has to happen to the system. I believe this is partly the reason why we were changed so little in MoP because of the limitations of runes.

    Soul Reaper - A very over-hyped and neglected ability. Most frost death knights aren't even using this in their rotation because it hits very "softly" for an execute. We take a look at an obliterate crit which is hitting for 300-400k (depending on gear and buffs) compared to SR which is barely hitting for 150-200k. Why waste a rune on an ability like SR when it could have been used on a harder hitting ability. Take look at warrior execute which is hitting for over a million damage in most cases which is amazing compared to SR.

    Runeforging - A good concept gone bad. Sure we are basically getting free enchants, but they have been the same enchants for 3 expansions or almost 5 years now. There needs to be a way to develop this system further then simply just saying they are free enchants. I would rather go buy enchants from enchanters then be stuck with rune of the fallen crusader for 4 expansions. They don't even have any cool weapon effects anymore compared to like landslide or something they are pathetic. I will admit it is kind of hard to expand above this system but it sure can in any way be better than it is now.

    0 Changes in MoP - We might as well have been playing the same expansion for 3 years now. I was disgusted at the lack of changes to death knights in Mists of Pandaria. We take a look at other classes like hunters, warlocks, shamans, Spriests etc who basically got class overhauls and DKs are stuck with the same abilities they had in cataclysm with 2 new useless abilities. Control Undead is virtually useless in MoP outside of ICC and Soul Reaper can hardly be called an execute ability.

    I invite everyone to compare DK talent trees to that of like priests or shamans whose talents are virtually all new abilities. Death Knight talents are all rehashed variations from pre-existing cataclysm abilities and talents. Our level 90 tier is a complete disgrace and abilities that don't even do damage one of which doesn't even have an animation. We can take a look at every other class whose level 90 talents are hard hitting abilities, but not DKs.

    Some of you might say don't change what isn't broken, but I go back to my point of we might as well have been playing cataclysm for 3-4 years. Expansions are suppose to freshen up and game and bring change.

    Ghoscrawler giving us the excuse that they listened to us too much in Wrath is a completely asinine statement.

    _________

    Some of you guys might not agree with me but these are the thoughts and concerns from someone who has been playing a death knight since wrath beta. If you didn't feel like reading all of this, I also included a video in which I cover these same points more thoroughly.



    Please help me figure out why Ghostcralwer (who doesn't even play a DK) thinks it is ok to make the class he wants it to be and not listen to the players who actually play the class.

    So much for being a Hero Class...
    Last edited by GamerLCD; 2013-01-02 at 01:14 AM.

  2. #2
    High Overlord Jarg's Avatar
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    Reroll then, im happy that you are not developing this class. These are not issues

  3. #3
    You should have a look at this post : http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Dream-changes, it has some of the current DK fails.

  4. #4
    It's always interesting to see the opinions of an highly talented PvE player like the OP. Feel free to tell us more.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    Please help me figure out why Ghostcralwer (who doesn't even play a DK) thinks it is ok to make the class he wants it to be and not listen to the players who actually play the class.
    Why fix what isn't broken? For instance, Runeforges are still superior to their enchant counterparts for death knights. 4% flat DR-ignoring parry? Yes, please! 15% more strength? Definitely. Same with runes. Adding in a "superpowered" rune that gives you an ability every few minutes doesn't change the core of runes: that they have a set # that you can get in a specific period of time under perfect conditions. What you're looking for is just more abilities to weave into your rotation, which I'm not against if they make sense and are workable.

    And explain to me why GC has to play a Death Knight to design it? You make it sound like GC should be an expert and main every single class in order to design or work with any of them. I hear that ridiculous assertion all the time. "GC doesn't play a rogue, he doesn't have the right to design it! He doesn't play a Warrior! How dare he nerf them?!"

    The ONLY complaint I have is PvP: 2H vs DW against plate/cloth. That's it, and there are suggestions to fix it (see two posts above mine)

  6. #6
    I see nothing currently wrong with death knights, other than the lack of decent glyphs... As for the whole "hero class" b.s. its an title, nothing more...it's been said 10000x's. You are not the only one that has played Dk since its inception. Sounds like OP should roll a new class, perhaps ele shammy, feral druid or Ret pally then you can see how terrible things can really be.
    Last edited by Bremmon; 2013-01-02 at 01:48 AM.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    So much for being a Hero Class...
    you're still being punished because of blizz listening to dks in wrath beta, just DK > all.

    dont worry elemental hasn't had survival for 2 x-pacs, if u want quick fixes, this game is not for you!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Why fix what isn't broken? For instance, Runeforges are still superior to their enchant counterparts for death knights. 4% flat DR-ignoring parry? Yes, please! 15% more strength? Definitely. Same with runes. Adding in a "superpowered" rune that gives you an ability every few minutes doesn't change the core of runes: that they have a set # that you can get in a specific period of time under perfect conditions. What you're looking for is just more abilities to weave into your rotation, which I'm not against if they make sense and are workable.

    And explain to me why GC has to play a Death Knight to design it? You make it sound like GC should be an expert and main every single class in order to design or work with any of them. I hear that ridiculous assertion all the time. "GC doesn't play a rogue, he doesn't have the right to design it! He doesn't play a Warrior! How dare he nerf them?!"

    The ONLY complaint I have is PvP: 2H vs DW against plate/cloth. That's it, and there are suggestions to fix it (see two posts above mine)
    I agree. Why fix what is not broken?
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    It appears that my initial assumption has turned out to be true. Ghostcrawler and other developers have been blatantly ignoring all DK player feedback since MoP beta. Perhaps this is why death knights are in such a bad state currently. Sure our damage is good, but that is not enough to justify not listening to player feedback about other things. There are still a lot of underlying problems with this class as a whole.
    That tweet was from two weeks ago. Before the buffs. He also tweeted this recently https://twitter.com/Holsety_/status/280470236493389824
    Lets be fair, if they listened to all feedback either 1 of 2 things would happen. We become insanely OP because all the suggestions make us that way. Or nothing changes because the community differs on everything.

    Not listening to feedback isn't a DK specific problem. Just look at second wind for warriors. People have been screaming since beta that it is too strong and they finally admitted it with nerfs and a blue post.

    Rune System - Although cool and arguably the most unique resource of all classes in the game, there a major flaws with the resource; they are very limiting. They are limiting to the point where it has stalled all development and creativity for the class as far as new skills and abilities go. Sure we have runic power, but it has gotten to the point where runes aren't even a main focus anymore and everything just costs runic power because of the limiting factor of runes. We take a look at paladin, shaman, or priest for example who have mana which essentially a unlimited resource that can always be automatically and manually replenished at will. Compared to our runes, sure they regenerate but we can only use them once before we have to wait a good 5-6 seconds before we can use them again. Think of it this way, the more abilities we get the less of them we can use because all of our core hitting abilities cost runes. Runic power is also not unlimited and forcing everything else to cost runic power results in us never having any to spend.

    Sure runes were a cool concept and its partly the reason so many people enjoy this class so much including myself. I don't think the solution is to get rid of runes altogether, but rather to upgrade them or add more variation on them; perhaps adding shadow runes or a type of empowered rune that can will let you use a super ability every couple minutes. It really doesn't matter but something has to happen to the system. I believe this is partly the reason why we were changed so little in MoP because of the limitations of runes.
    I think the only problem that comes with our resource system is the unwillingness to put new abilities on RP rather than runes. Especially abilities like soul reaper and death siphon. These are abilities that could still serve their main purpose costing an equivalent amount of RP rather than runes.
    Soul Reaper - A very over-hyped and neglected ability. Most frost death knights aren't even using this in their rotation because it hits very "softly" for an execute. We take a look at an obliterate crit which is hitting for 300-400k (depending on gear and buffs) compared to SR which is barely hitting for 150-200k. Why waste a rune on an ability like SR when it could have been used on a harder hitting ability. Take look at warrior execute which is hitting for over a million damage in most cases which is amazing compared to SR.
    I can only call bullshit. Did you pull these numbers out of thin air?
    2h frost dk parse 25 heroic blade lord. Highest US parse.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ud...?s=4795&e=5099
    Obliterate hit average: 107k
    Obliterate crit average: 242k

    Soul Reaper hit average: 116k
    Soul Reaper Crit average: 269k
    For an ability that has half the rune cost. This is a dps INCREASE no matter what way you look at it.
    Should I go further? Why not.
    DW Frost 25 heroic blade lord. First parse I could find of dw on the rankings section.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/wh8xj.../?s=970&e=1309

    Howling blast average: 68k
    Howling blast crit average: 135k

    Soul Reaper average: 112k
    Soul Reaper crit average 239k

    Because you threw out warriors lets check them!
    Arms:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-59...=10641&e=10999
    Execute hit average : 174k
    Execute crit average: 486k

    Fury
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-mz...?s=1097&e=1390
    Execute hit average: 212k
    Execute crit average: 624k.

    Still not "over a million" damage. Oh well. Sure, its a hell of a lot higher, but the ability is their top % damage ability. Compare us to an equivalent like hunters and you'll see that kill shot is more in line damage wise of ours.
    Runeforging - A good concept gone bad. Sure we are basically getting free enchants, but they have been the same enchants for 3 expansions or almost 5 years now. There needs to be a way to develop this system further then simply just saying they are free enchants. I would rather go buy enchants from enchanters then be stuck with rune of the fallen crusader for 4 expansions. They don't even have any cool weapon effects anymore compared to like landslide or something they are pathetic. I will admit it is kind of hard to expand above this system but it sure can in any way be better than it is now.
    I agree this should be rehauled. We have the ability to go to acherus whenever we want. If we have to change our runeforge every other boss, I say its worth it and would be a welcome change.
    0 Changes in MoP - We might as well have been playing the same expansion for 3 years now. I was disgusted at the lack of changes to death knights in Mists of Pandaria. We take a look at other classes like hunters, warlocks, shamans, Spriests etc who basically got class overhauls and DKs are stuck with the same abilities they had in cataclysm with 2 new useless abilities. Control Undead is virtually useless in MoP outside of ICC and Soul Reaper can hardly be called an execute ability.
    So vital changes to blood tap (gcd on vs gcd off) and soul reaper ( death runes) changes that came from player feedback just didn't happen? They did. They listened and changed. They didn't listen enough? "enough" is subjective. Some will say they didn't listen enough even if they responded to all feedback. Hunters were barely changed, shamans had a totem redesign as a function of the talent redesign. Warlocks are the only ones with a true overhaul and I guess shadow priests got a new resource.
    I invite everyone to compare DK talent trees to that of like priests or shamans whose talents are virtually all new abilities. Death Knight talents are all rehashed variations from pre-existing cataclysm abilities and talents. Our level 90 tier is a complete disgrace and abilities that don't even do damage one of which doesn't even have an animation. We can take a look at every other class whose level 90 talents are hard hitting abilities, but not DKs.
    I initially felt this way aswell. However looking at alot of the talents, many classes got about 9-10 rehashed abilities or things taken. We have 9. Hunters have 9 by my count, priests have 10, warriors only got like 5, mages got 7. Warlocks probably have more due to the rehaul. Pallies have like 9.
    Some of you might say don't change what isn't broken, but I go back to my point of we might as well have been playing cataclysm for 3-4 years. Expansions are suppose to freshen up and game and bring change.
    How much change is appropriate amount of change? If they rehauled us and it wasn't to my liking, i'd reroll. Hunters received very little change along with us. Its not horrible because we're in a good place now.


    Cannot watch video at the moment. But I will in the future.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    From what Im seeing, your post is more of a "QQ DKS NOT CHANGED". Please keep in mind that compared to the classes your mentiond, Spriests, Warlocks, have been in the game for 5 expansions now, and are just now getting a change. There are STILL classes out there that are more or less the same since they were introduced, and haven't been changed. (Rogues).

    I currently play Unholy/Blood. The biggest change I wanted for blood happened- We got a 1 sec GCD baseline. For Unholy, not much changed, but we are getting a number of nice QoL changes next patch. (better damage at range, diseases now extremely easy to get up, ect)
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    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  11. #11
    When did the shaman get a class overhaul in MoP?
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  12. #12
    Ok, but as a wow-playing slob, I kick ass tanking with ok gear, and can usually do pretty good dps in my tanking gear as Frost. Compared to, say, my Paladin, Priest, Warlock, and Druid, I'm not sure what the problem is.

    This is a slob answer, not a theory-crafting answer, but dk's seem to be in a good place.

    By this I mean, for example, that my dk does much better dps both tanking and dps'ing than my priest and pally at similar ilvl's. My pally tank does fine, but compared to my dk, all things being equal, his dps is off 20% or more. Assuming that I am equally slobby at all my toons, I would think that if there was a problem, it would be obvious.
    Last edited by Ayonel; 2013-01-02 at 02:07 AM.

  13. #13
    I'm sorry, where/how is Obliterate criting for 300k? Did I miss something or am impotent for barely being able to clear 170k?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeothecat View Post
    When did the shaman get a class overhaul in MoP?
    Didn't you hear? Totems got removed, and replaced by immobile cooldowns.

  15. #15
    Dreadlord myhv's Avatar
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    What if I told you that your class is in a very good spot right now? And what you think is a "complete negligence from developers" is actually a rather good position to be in? Even if we throw the damage aspect out of the way (but do remember that you have one spec that's doing really good right now and a second one that's considered "unviable" that's actually is doing better than spriests and retry only option) and just focus on utility and your "underlying problems with this class as a whole" I can prove to you there are worse palies to be and DKs are in a rather good spot right now. I'll be referring to spriests as a worse scenario, since you so kindly invited us to compare talents and 'cause i have the most experience with them.

    Rune System Yes, it's not the best designed resource system, but it sure as hell beats the another energy class. You mention pallies and shammies having virtually unlimited resource that can be easily repleneshed, but really, the only reason they have mana is cause their healing specs. They are pretty much reliant on cooldowns and procs, almost exactly the same way as dks, except in your case you have shared cooldowns on abilities, i.e runes. For ret and enh mana is really there just to prevent heal spamming, and it is actually not that easy to replenish. Yes, for ret it's simply time based, but for enh you actually need to be hitting something with your autoattack to have a chance at procing mana back, which is not a problem in PvE, but in PvP it's easy to get mana starved. That's one of the reasons why shamanistic rage existed in the first place.

    But coming back to DKs. The only real difference from CD based rotation that all mana based melee have is that you can fuck up easier. Use wrong skill and you'll loose more DPS cause of runes being on CD then if you would use lava lash followed by SS and not the other way around as enh shammy. It rases the skill cap of the class, but in no way makes it bad.

    Your point of not being able to add more abilities in to rotation due to runes being a limiting factor is true to a degree, but only so. It's still possible to add abilities that do not cost anything and only have a CD in to rotation. Or new abilities can restore runes to you (for example uses an unholy rune, but activates a depleted frost one), so even though you are spending them on something else, you still get to use your other abilities. And if everything else fails it's always possible the move runes towards the holy power position, where you need to choose what you spend them on (like rets now have to choose between damage, damage buff, AoE damage and healing). It might be a strange system, but in no way is limiting.

    Soul Reaper I don't think it's the problem that it hits for too little, it's more of a problem that your obli hits for too much normally. I'm not even talking about warriors with their ridiculous executes, devs already stated that they do not like it so and you really do not want to be in the same position. I'm sure there would be much more outcry if your overall damage was way lower most of the fight just to accommodation for huge execute phase hits. 200k is around where my SWD's hit on a priest and about in range of hunter's kill shot, so I really do not see why is this even an issue. Believe me, it's feels better to have even damage overall, then to be overly reliant on the last 20% of the boss, especially since half the time you'll get some mechanic that makes that part of the fight even shorter, or even worse, does not allow you to DPS properly at all.

    Runeforging Yes, it's stupid to have parts of the class be outdated and not used. You should be happy that you actually get a BiS enchant on your weapon for free from the very start, rather than complain that it's not good enough. We have enchanting making wands at low levels, we have shadow priest apparitions, eye of kilrog/far sight/eagle eye, moonglade and lots of other things. It's an old game, some parts of it are becoming obsolete and unused, especially if it was not such a fun idea to begin with.

    0 Changes in MoP I assume you are talking in terms of rotation, not in terms of flavor and utility, since I'll discuss that alter. You are absolutely right on this one! That is you are right about "if it's not broken, don't change it!" part. The best example is the current state of shadow priests. It was (arguably of course, but majority of people who actually played the class before will agree) one of, if not the best class in therms of gameplay. It had some basic elements, like keeping a buff on yourself, not allowing your dots to fall off and using your short CDs properly. It had rather easy mechanics to get in to, but also a lot to master. It was easy to spot a good priest from a bad one and dedication to the class was rewarded. And what they did with the 4set bonus in DS was simply amazing. The best design for a cooldown in the game. Something that is still part of your class, but makes you switch your approach tot he combat completely for it's duration. Simply magnificent.

    And yes, it had it's problems, like randomness of shadow orb generation, sometimes you could spend good 10-20 seconds at the start of the fight without a proc and get completely screwed over (which was almost completely fixed with said 4set bonus), or the fact that our CD's were a bit wanky and made little sense for a dot class (which again was fixed with DS 4set), having boring AoE, not being able to do any serious damage on the move, especially if you did not have the chance to refresh the dots beforehand (i.e knowing exactly when you'll need to move) and generally the fact that our "proc" was super boring and changed nothing in the rotation at all, but even then it made our mind blast hit for big numbers, so it was just a bit fun at times.

    And in MoP they decided to "fix" us. Now we are not even a proper dot class, completely relying on procs to a such degree, that if you don't spec in to FDCL you are pretty much casting vampiric touch just to keep your mana up. Our AoE want from boring but efficient to incredibly fiddly on 3-5 targets and abysmally bad on >5 targets and then back to kinda ok, but exactly the same, after a huge backlash from the players.

    And don't even mention talent to me. As a DK you get a wide variety to rather cool talents and utility that you actually change around and use. Yes your "DPS tier" is not much of a choice, but everything else is much better then most classes, yet you still have the nerve to complain?! Have you even seen priest talents?

    First tier: either a useless (in PvE) fear, or a mind control that you can use on about 3 mobs total between all 5 mans and raids (none in raids btw) or a root that will last exactly as long as it takes for affected mob to use one auto attack on it.
    Second tier: the only real choice we have, do you want easy to use sprint, that might interfere with other priests in raid, or harder to use sprint that can miss, but it lasts 3 times longer. Unless you want to pvp, then you can't have any sprint at all.
    Third tier: Do you want overall damage or short burst? Oh never mind, there are no fights that need a shot timed high damage burst, guess you're taking FDCL. Or you could take insanity, cause it's the lowest DPS possible and will trigger a bugged aura for all the other priests in the raid, so they would know that you chose the worst talent. If you are a healer, you just take mindbender.
    Forth tier: Are you doing heroic wind lord? then you take bulwark. If not, take prayer. If you want to pvp, you don't get either once again.
    Fifth tier: it's the other way around, healers get to choose their performance increase, while shadow just cries in the corner, because their potentially best talent is shit, since blizz thinks it's good to have sub 20% of the fight last like 15 seconds.
    Final tier: Oh wow, this one is great, right? Such amazing and cool looking abilities to choose from, right? Wrong. If you are holy, you'll love cascade, since it's and AoE heal that's considered single target, so it will be buffed by your chakra, will proc mastery and heal for a ton as a result. As disc, it's also kinda good, but nothing exciting. As shadow, you're gonna take divine star for 2 or 3 fight, if your raid is having trouble with AoE damage, or you will take halo to boost your single target damage.

    Yes, halo, the amazing priest new toy, the most impressive looking spell in the game, the frame rate killer! Such a wonderful thing to fall on to our class, right? Wrong again! To use it properly you need to install a fucken addon, since blizzard decided to make it impossible to tell exactly if it will do full damage or you were better off not interrupting that mind flay. The spell that makes you run around the room like an idiot, screwing over other people's positioning, just to try and find that sweet spot for it to do damage, just to have it fucked up if tank decides to move two steppes to the side. Yes, a truly amazing level 90 talent.

    Our use tot he raid is limited my a rather weak raid heal, but it's reliant on us actually doing damage to something while it's active and a spell haste buff. Well, also mana regen, but you're better off bringing a healer priest if you need that, since you'll probably will save healers more mana by not having shadow DPSing. And all that is topped of with our simply put it bad damage output, unless you are fighting a two target fight with some switches on targets that are about 60 yards away that will live for 10+ seconds, one at ta time with a damage taken debuff being applied to them 2-3 seconds after they spawn. So yeah.

    I guess my point is that you need to learn to appreciate what your class has to give you and that change is not always as good as you think. Maybe DK's are just not a class for you? I know I despise the rune system, that's why I'll never play one seriously. I know what's the class for me, because despite all the bullshit I've described to you that spriests have to deal with, i still play one and I still find ways to get some enjoyment out of my time with the game.

    Just think if you belong where you are right now.


    P.S. It's freaken 4 in the morning on the night after new year's, I'm really tired and I'm making typos every second word. I'm sorry if I was not able to clear them all out.
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  16. #16
    The Patient Magdalena's Avatar
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    Death Knights are fine.
    Scratch that, we're more than fine. We're in an excellent position this tier, both damage and tanking wise. The one spec that hasn't seen much representation is getting some needed mechanical changes in 5.2 to encourage more of us to play it.
    Overall, we're in a far better spot right now than we were for the majority of Cataclysm.
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  17. #17
    Since I've been unable to play my main char DK for a while, I've been playing Shadow Priest, Oomkin, Elem, and all healing specs of these classes.
    From DPS perspective DK>Owl>ShPriest=Elem
    We have aggressive cleave in both DPS specs, amazing single target DPS with huge burst in UH and adorable switch in Frosty.
    We do not need to keep some kind of stacks/orbs for every pull, our army is off the CD now, SR is at the least the funny and useful ability.
    That's it. OP played OP class in WotLK QQ this class please.

  18. #18
    Yes, because "giving players everything they ask for is a bad idea" is completely the same as "we're ignoring the players."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    Rune System - Although cool and arguably the most unique resource of all classes in the game, there a major flaws with the resource; they are very limiting. They are limiting to the point where it has stalled all development and creativity for the class as far as new skills and abilities go. Sure we have runic power, but it has gotten to the point where runes aren't even a main focus anymore and everything just costs runic power because of the limiting factor of runes. We take a look at paladin, shaman, or priest for example who have mana which essentially a unlimited resource that can always be automatically and manually replenished at will. Compared to our runes, sure they regenerate but we can only use them once before we have to wait a good 5-6 seconds before we can use them again. Think of it this way, the more abilities we get the less of them we can use because all of our core hitting abilities cost runes. Runic power is also not unlimited and forcing everything else to cost runic power results in us never having any to spend.

    Sure runes were a cool concept and its partly the reason so many people enjoy this class so much including myself. I don't think the solution is to get rid of runes altogether, but rather to upgrade them or add more variation on them; perhaps adding shadow runes or a type of empowered rune that can will let you use a super ability every couple minutes. It really doesn't matter but something has to happen to the system. I believe this is partly the reason why we were changed so little in MoP because of the limitations of runes.
    To add my 2 cents on this, it's a mistake to compare DKs to mana using melee DPSers. Runes are more comparable to energy. Use them to build the secondary resource, then use that as appropriate. Mana using melee DPSers are mainly driven by their cooldowns, not resources, though in the end I think it's really not that different. Either way you use the best ability available at the given moment.


    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    So much for being a Hero Class...
    The only thing hero class means is that the character starts at level 55, not level 1. The expectation that "hero" means it's somehow better than all others is what GC was really talking about regarding wrath beta feedback. At the release of Wrath, DKs really were over powered, and went through significant iteration with each patch. I'm no expert on monks, but I don't think they're getting such drastic overhauls thus far in this expansion.

  20. #20
    The Patient reffan's Avatar
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    DKs are the worst thing that happened to WoW since release. I hope they will delete them in future...

    Let's not go there
    Last edited by Fnx-; 2013-01-02 at 10:22 AM.

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