Why Guild Applications are becoming a thing of the past

[TheOne]

Those applications served a purpose, whether you like it or not - they gave you prospective recruits who cared enough to at least submit an application. That saved you time.

If you took every moron who whispered you or showed BARELY any interest, you would've been running 600 heroics instead of 30.

I do understand that, but I have to respectfully disagree. If I throw an add up in gen chat with what I require, I get replies. I then write down names and consult armory. If it looks like an alt, I ask if it is. If they say no, I check their gear to see if they are making an effort to be raid ready. I then choose who I take on runs based on conversation with the prospect and checking his armory. I know this sounds slow and tedious, but to me, it's worth the extra effort. The way I see it, people want others to be in their guild just as badly as others want to be in a guild. I wouldn't want to miss out on a good prospect just because of a technicality.

[Deleted]

The way I see it, people want others to be in their guild just as badly as others want to be in a guild.

This is the truth. It can't be said often enough.

[TheOne]

This is the truth. It can't be said often enough.

You could say it one hundred trillion times, and still no one would listen.

Why do you think the debate ended there?

[Thehealbus]

The way I see it, people want others to be in their guild just as badly as others want to be in a guild.

They want players that are good an at least equal to them to join their guild, the application process greatly helps this.

[TheOne]

They want players that are good an at least equal to them to join their guild, the application process greatly helps this.

So does experiencing content with them. In fact, it tells me more than anything on "paper".

[Thehealbus]

So does experiencing content with them. In fact, it tells me more than anything on "paper".

Just the fact that they bothered to give you something on paper shows a lot, though I doubt you can be convinced otherwise, as you seem to think that effort shown prior to in raid is all completely arbitrary when it's not. It gives you an indication of character, how reliable a person is, and their dedication to the guild. Sure someone can show you fantastic performance one night for a trial, but you're still ignoring so many other factors that I suggest can be solved by finding out who is willing to spend a measly 10 minutes to fill out an application.

[Deleted]

Just the fact that they bothered to give you something on paper shows a lot

Giving them an app is one thing and fine, but them then nitpicking on the length of answers (1-2 liners) rather than the actual content of the answers is ridiculous.

[TheOne]

Just the fact that they bothered to give you something on paper shows a lot, though I doubt you can be convinced otherwise, as you seem to think that effort shown prior to in raid is all completely arbitrary when it's not. It gives you an indication of character, how reliable a person is, and their dedication to the guild. Sure someone can show you fantastic performance one night for a trial, but you're still ignoring so many other factors that I suggest can be solved by finding out who is willing to spend a measly 10 minutes to fill out an application.

I never said requiring applications is wrong, I merely stated that I like to go a little more in depth. Sure, applications are a good starting point, if you're a serious hardcore HM raiding guild. If I were a raid leader for that kind of guild, I will admit, I may use apps to guide me. Plus do it my way. For a casual progression guild, I think it's not really necessary.

I just want to add that, as someone else pointed out earlier, applications can be manipulated. It is by far the worst kind of way to judge someones character. It may show effort that they did part of what was required, but filling out that app is minor compared to what is required of a good solid raider.

[Kaneiac]

I never said requiring applications is wrong, I merely stated that I like to go a little more in depth. Sure, applications are a good starting point, if you're a serious hardcore HM raiding guild. If I were a raid leader for that kind of guild, I will admit, I may use apps to guide me. Plus do it my way. For a casual progression guild, I think it's not really necessary.

Which I think was the core of the entire thread, before people went nuts on the OP. Applications are a great tool. But like many tools, they have to be used correctly, otherwise they're more detrimental than beneficial.

[TheOne]

Which I think was the core of the entire thread, before people went nuts on the OP. Applications are a great tool. But like many tools, they have to be used correctly, otherwise they're more detrimental than beneficial.

I'll agree with that. You have to be very careful what people show you on the surface. That priest may be an awesome healer, but he failed to mention on his app that he's been in seven guilds in six months.

Yeah, I read the OP, and then got lost in the rest. LOL@me.

[Shaley]

Jesus, OP sent me 3 private messages defending her 9th percentile DPS.

[Beebeey]

I'll agree with that. You have to be very careful what people show you on the surface. That priest may be an awesome healer, but he failed to mention on his app that he's been in seven guilds in six months.

Yeah, I read the OP, and then got lost in the rest. LOL@me.

This whole thread turned into a complete bash fest.

I have a dps problem
I ask around on people/etc/for help
I read forums/sites for help
I can't find problem fix or help
I try to fix said problem alone
Personal tries at problem fix fail
I start going on dummies for hours to see what's going on
I start trying random stuff in raids to see what's going on
Meanwhile a friend tells me to re-apply to their guild
I do: I get declined
I again ask for some help
I write an unrelated post about not being able to find a regular guild
Everyone assumes I talk about the friends' guilds I get declined from
Everyone assumes I'm talking about filling out applications and disregards entire actual post
Officer from said guild comes to thread to bash me thinking I'm referring to his guild
I get bashed for 28+ pages
I finally get an answer from some nice people
I get bashed some more and called names on my help thread

Yep...definitely been an exciting week.

---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 04:52 PM ----------

Jesus, OP sent me 3 private messages defending her 9th percentile DPS.

Really? Because I thought I was opening a dialogue for input on things I could have done better outside of the SrS. Christ.

[Anjerith]

It's easy to state how awesome you are in a forum app, it is also easy to show how amazingly precise you play your class.

Apps do nothing to inform you of the attitude of the player themselves which, in the reality of the 10 man raid world, is incredibly important.

[Deleted]

That priest may be an awesome healer, but he failed to mention on his app that he's been in seven guilds in six months.

You can't hold that against the priest at all. On backwater servers it's a common occurrence that guilds crumble as fast as they appear. 7 in 6 months can easily happen on such realms. There are many reasons to why someone decides to leave a guild.

[Kraenen]

this is the good ole' paper vs experience, formal vs informal training debate. it's nice to see it pop up once in a while, reminds us all of our real life job applications.

[Pugbot]

The last guild I tried to join that advertised as serious progression required an app and an interview. The app more for just getting webpage access and to remind them to contact me I suppose.
I thought the interview process was awesome. Asking me things like what outside resources do I use for WoW, such as elitistjerks and tankspot and wowhead and etc. All of them I sure I knew as well as anybody else in the guild. Also some very basic questions about my class and responsibility, resto druid means I heal, what does intellect do, what does spirit do, etc, things you should know off the top of your head or should at least be able to look up super fast (like hover over them on your character sheet). Basically just things proving I knew how to use my resources available to me, it wasn't a question of my experience or my achievements, but rather or not I knew how to use the tools to be successful.
I was VERY impressed with the interview process. And I know a lot of players are too shy to interview or be interviewed like that, and in honesty I wouldn't want those kinds of players progressing next to me anyways.

But, within 3 weeks of actual raiding after we got our 25m together (first tier cata raiding) the guild split apart in an emorage fueled hurricane of noobiness, so I don't know what lesson was to be learned here.

[isadorr]

The application process proves that you actually give a fuck about joining a guild to progress, regardless of what they have killed, the kind of people who are to lazy to fill out a 10 minute app so they can spend hundreds of hours progressing with a guild are the kind of people you don't want in your guild.

For this purpose I think that every guild should have some kind of application process.

I so agree I have watched friends guilds struggle every single tier partially because they don't App or even ask very many questions then they put them in a raid, gear them up and then realize they suck. Wow look we just wasted another month lets go find another to gear up but they aren't good player's either so it doesn't really matter but to watch people do this over and over is insanity. If you don't have the 5min to fill out a app. then why would a guild want you? Doesn that mean you also don't have th 5-10min to check class changes or wowhead, EJ or even MMo to know your rotations, gemming, reforging and so on. Simcraft? No, I just want gear and heroic kills carry me please, put that on your app then you will at least be honest.

---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 10:28 PM ----------

Our GM did applications. Even though we were a progression guild, we were not ultra hardcore. We were usually the number 3-4 guild on a medium sized server. He would look at them and give me names of prospective recruits. I never bothered to look at the applications. What I would do is grab a few prospects and run a minimum of 3 of the harder heroics of whichever patch we were on and make my judgements there. There is nothing in black and white I care to see. Actions speak louder than words. Were I a GM, I would recruit in exactly the same manner. No apps, just show me, or my raid leaders, what you've got on the battlefield. Applications are a power trip. Someone trying to exert control over someone else. In my eyes, we all stand on equal ground until you show me different. Some go up, some go down.

ROFL way to put politics in a video game. Ya heroics arent aoe dps or a 30 sec boss fight that you can totally inflate your dps on. Genuis way to recruit. Hard heroics?

---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 10:31 PM ----------

They want players that are good an at least equal to them to join their guild, the application process greatly helps this.

Exactly. If you are a good guild then want player's with similiar mind sets who do things without being asked. Know class changes, top spec for your class, gems, reforges, rotations, priority rotations, simcraft, etc. 95% of people I know in bad guilds who can clear normal mode don't know any of the above and I had to tell a friend who think's he is running a progression guild that expertise gave hit rating for caster 3 weeks in. That is the difference, progression guilds that are good get people who think alike and most other's end up grouped together also because they are alike.

[TheOne]

ROFL way to put politics in a video game. Ya heroics arent aoe dps or a 30 sec boss fight that you can totally inflate your dps on. Genuis way to recruit. Hard heroics?

You missed the point. I made sure they understood that this is an audition for raiding. It's no longer just a heroic dungeon. Learning to follow simple instructions is vital to raiding. If they couldn't follow instructions in a heroic dungeon, then I had no place for them in my raids.

The problem is, you think it's just about numbers. You couldn't be any more wrong. Numbers can be fixed if a player is willing to make the effort to learn. The effort to learn is one of the main things I look for in a raider.

[isadorr]

It's easy to state how awesome you are in a forum app, it is also easy to show how amazingly precise you play your class.

Apps do nothing to inform you of the attitude of the player themselves which, in the reality of the 10 man raid world, is incredibly important.

Depends what kind of progression you are talking about. Top 200 guild and the only thing said is get along during the raids idgaf what you do outside raids in trade or whatever. Perform in the raid and get along, no pen pals or having to be best buddies as you raid. Pushing progression is stressful and a lot of times the outspoken people will say things that need to be said that other's don't want to say. Calling someone out for low numbers whether it dps or healing, those things need to happen when pushing progression. If you are casual or semi-progression then ya more social is needed especially when people are getting carried and you ask why only to be answered with they are friends, gf, bf, wife and so on.

You don't have to get along to progress, if you ever listen in on progression guilds during progression you hear people not getting along. If you listen when progression is on farm then it more casual and not so tense. Pretty much put up the numbers you should and dont stand in dumb shit.

[Deleted]

top spec for your class

A player who plays one spec to near perfection but has no clue about how to play the other 2 specs can hardly be considered a bad player.