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  1. #21
    1.Envenom clipping during burst phases - what's your preference?
    2.Do you occasionally hold back Vendetta to align with SB (rather than just aligning every 6th minute)?
    3.At what CP amount do you hold back Blindside to get the procs during Envenom (presuming anticipation)?
    4.Using Vanish on cooldown or aligning with CDs?
    5.To what extent are you timing abilities with procs (e.g. Dancing Steel and trinkets)?
    6.At what point do you swap from Envenom/SnD/Rupture to FoK/CT, and when do you overlap (i.e. FoK/CT with Ruptures)?
    7.What addon/tools do you use to track and do multi-rupturing?
    1. As stated previously, try to avoid clipping your envenom buff, even during burst phases. However, during Bloodlust/Heroism with Shadow Blades going, it's very likely you will clip the buff (even with the ability to bank 10 cps). It's much preferred to clip than waste CP's.

    2. As a general rule, don't hold back Vendetta. The only time you might is if you'll be doing a significant amount of target swapping during a phase and won't get much if any use out of the Vendetta buff.

    3. Don't hold back Blindside procs unless you're already at the 10 cp cap (5 without Anticipation). By using mutilate instead, you're robbing yourself of a possible secondary proc.

    4. I usually use Vanish on CD. It lines up well with initial pre-pot/burst phase with SB/Vendetta running, and will be up for every subsequential Vendetta.

    5. Frankly it's not worthwhile to wait for trinkets/dancing steel procs to pop cd's.

    6. For 2-3 targets, I get SND up asap, rupture at 4cps on my initial target, swap targets, use a low CP envenom, and get 4-5 cp ruptures up and keep them up on all targets. For 4+, I open with Muti, hit SND, FoK to 4 cps, rupture, FoK to 1 cp, Envenom (to renew SND to max obv.), then begin rotating between 3 targets and maintaining rupture on all with FoK as my primary CP generator. Crimson Tempest is mediocre for Combat, and for Assassination it's garbage. The additional energy regen from keeping 4-5 pt ruptures up on 3 targets makes FoK completely spammable, and allows for 4-5 pt envenom transitions into additional FoK spam. Check WoL, unless it's changed recently, most top Assassination logs on fights like Wind Lord Heroic, involve the use of no Crimpson Tempests (maybe 1-2). Frankly, it's crap.

    7. Tidy Plates.

  2. #22
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Feel free to correct me, but doesn't SB replace your auto attacks? Therefore vanishing mid SB would refresh your auto attack therefore it's a loss of DPS? I prefer to use Vendetta, Vanish then SB.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 05:06 PM ----------



    I think you're wrong. On my timers, if I use Envenom when it has 0.9 seconds or less left, it will start again from 6.9 seconds.
    SB does replace auto attacks but vanish with shadow focus lets you use a free, high CP generating(since it's during SB), mut. I would rather line it up then to get the most free CP out of it than any other time. Whatever dps you might lose due to an auto attack refresh should surely be made up for and then some by the mut damage, fact it costs no energy and how many CPs you get(possible 4 for free is hard to pass up).

    As for envenom, I hope I'm outdated on my info and it does in fact refresh if under 1 second. If so I need to change up my play style a little to accommodate for this.

    Edit- Just checked it on the raid dummy. Refreshed an envenom with 5cp at .9 sec left and got a 6.9s buff

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    No, Envenom is a buff so it refreshes to 6 seconds if used during another Envenom buff.
    If it did what you're thinking it did, there'd be no reason to pool energy like we do now.
    Pooling energy isn't about clipping the buff so much as it is about getting 2xMuts in during the buff to max the amount of attacks we proc poison on.


    Trip-trip-triple Edit- While we are on the subject and got some solid minds at work here, 4cp rupture vs 5cp rupture? Avoiding situations where shit goes south and you have to rupture at 2-3cp. I've been playing where if I am at 4cp with no blindside and rupture is about to tick off I will go ahead and rupture, using that possible mut towards an envenom buff cp bank. If I'm at 5cp, obv I just rupture when needed and if I'm at 3 with blindside, I blindside into rupture, without blindside I just mut into rupture at 3cp. I remember reading somewhere that the difference between a 4cp and a 5cp rupture was not worth a loss of envenom uptime.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Saegno; 2013-01-14 at 07:04 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    1. Envenom clipping during burst phases - what's your preference?
    2. Do you occasionally hold back Vendetta to align with SB (rather than just aligning every 6th minute)?
    3. At what CP amount do you hold back Blindside to get the procs during Envenom (presuming anticipation)?
    4. Using Vanish on cooldown or aligning with CDs?
    5. To what extent are you timing abilities with procs (e.g. Dancing Steel and trinkets)?
    6. At what point do you swap from Envenom/SnD/Rupture to FoK/CT, and when do you overlap (i.e. FoK/CT with Ruptures)?
    7. What addon/tools do you use to track and do multi-rupturing?
    1. At higher gear levels, you have to clip a lot in your opener, especially if hero is going. I even save my Vanish until my initial burst is over to keep Envenom rolling longer; using it in the opener is essentially wasted if you're clipping a bunch. I can maintain ~100% Envenom uptime for a bit over a minute if we open with hero. Don't be afraid to clip if you're going to cap on CPs and energy. Also, don't go clear to 10 CP on purpose, thus potentially losing CPs. If a crit will waste a CP and I'm going to energy cap, I just clip.
    2. Only hold your last Vendetta to line up with your last SB. That means using it on CD until <2m is left in the fight.
    3. Only hold a Blindside if you're at 5+ CP without Env rolling. Mutilating over a Dispatch is the same as losing 30% of a Dispatch over time.
    4. I use Vanish on cooldown after the first use. I almost never use it in the first 40-60 seconds of a fight, for reasons explained above.
    5. For 2-4, I just multidot with Rupture. For 5+, I just do my single target rotation with FoK instead of Mut, pooling for as many FoKs during Env as possible. CT is almost never worth using; the rest of our AoE is still up in the air as far as theorycrafting as far as I know. I'm holding my own against a lock and a SP on H Sha p2 adds, so I must be doing something right.
    6. Tidy Plates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I feel like a bad rogue for asking, but it's been playing on my mind recently. Clipping envenom is known as a mortal sin for assassination, but since it's a buff on you, does it not benefit from the "if you clip this a second early it will add the remaining time on to a new buff" effect? Similar to how rupture works.
    Env has a 1s tick for clipping purposes. Mine shows 7s (+1 tick) all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    To clarify on 3): I was under the impression that Blindside could also proc poisons, making it better to save for Envenom uptime. Question is at what point saving it postpones Envenom downtime enough that its not worth it.
    Dispatch does proc poisons, as does Mutilate. The poison from either ability hits for the same amount. However, Dispatch hits way harder itself than Mutilate. Mutilating over a Blindside is like throwing away 30% of a Dispatch, on average.

    The only time I Mutilate over a Blindside is during my opener, where a Dispatch instead of one of my first 2 Muts will cause severe energy capping, thus wasting an entire Mutilate or more (which is more valuable than 30% of a Dispatch).
    Last edited by Squirl; 2013-01-14 at 07:31 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    Trip-trip-triple Edit- While we are on the subject and got some solid minds at work here, 4cp rupture vs 5cp rupture? Avoiding situations where shit goes south and you have to rupture at 2-3cp. I've been playing where if I am at 4cp with no blindside and rupture is about to tick off I will go ahead and rupture, using that possible mut towards an envenom buff cp bank. If I'm at 5cp, obv I just rupture when needed and if I'm at 3 with blindside, I blindside into rupture, without blindside I just mut into rupture at 3cp. I remember reading somewhere that the difference between a 4cp and a 5cp rupture was not worth a loss of envenom uptime.

    Thoughts?
    Sounds about right. Sounds like it'd mean fewer Mutilates outside of Envenom too.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    If you would ever have to choose, when you have 1 dispatch and 1 mutilate, but only 1 fits in envenom, put the mutilate in. Unless I missed a change, mut still has 2 chances to proc poison, where dispatch only has 1. Envenom doesn't increase anything but poison application...
    Mutilate attacks with both weapons and since your offhand has a utitility poison, it doesn't make much differece as far as deadly application. I would say use the dispatch proc in case the next mutilate were to proc blindside in this extremely rare situation.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Mutilate attacks with both weapons and since your offhand has a utitility poison, it doesn't make much differece as far as deadly application. I would say use the dispatch proc in case the next mutilate were to proc blindside in this extremely rare situation.
    Actually that's never been the case; mut previously procced both poisons off the same hand, and in current (5.0+) situations, both weapons proc both poisons, so that was never accurate >< but assuming mut still procs 2 poisons it's the superior one to use under envenom, yes, especially considering dispatch. I don't know HOW this would come up, but if you ever find yourself there, dispatch outside, mut inside.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Actually that's never been the case; mut previously procced both poisons off the same hand, and in current (5.0+) situations, both weapons proc both poisons, so that was never accurate >< but assuming mut still procs 2 poisons it's the superior one to use under envenom, yes, especially considering dispatch. I don't know HOW this would come up, but if you ever find yourself there, dispatch outside, mut inside.
    Ah! I stand corrected on both accounts. Thanks for clearing that up.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    SB does replace auto attacks but vanish with shadow focus lets you use a free, high CP generating(since it's during SB), mut. I would rather line it up then to get the most free CP out of it than any other time. Whatever dps you might lose due to an auto attack refresh should surely be made up for and then some by the mut damage, fact it costs no energy and how many CPs you get(possible 4 for free is hard to pass up).
    Yeah but you are overlooking that the value of a combo point that will only serve to clip an envenom (thus only gaining a very small amount of damage from the finisher itself) has a relatively low value. If you have SB up, you are almost definitely going to be clipping some. If you wait, you do get 1 less cp from your shadow focus mut/ambush but you can use the cp to actually increase envenom uptime, and you also lose less damage from resetting your swings while SB isn't up.

    Now I have no math to say which is for sure better, but I don't think its a safe assumption at all that your cp during SB are better because there is 1 more when the main benefit of cp usually is higher envenom uptime that you are rather unlikely to get during SB due having so many cp already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Feel free to correct me, but doesn't SB replace your auto attacks? Therefore vanishing mid SB would refresh your auto attack therefore it's a loss of DPS? I prefer to use Vendetta, Vanish then SB.
    If Ven and SB are both up, absolutely do not chain them back to back over using them at the same time.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    3.(Assuming I'm understanding the question) If I'm at 3+ CP I'll hold off on using my blindside proc, hit a mut to get 5 cp and use blindside during envenom. If it's going into a phase transition/movement I'll envenom around 60 energy instead of 80 so I can get a mut+blindside in instead of 2 muts+blindside, but that's only if I know I wont have time to do the latter. I also only envenom at 5cp. I know some people favor 4cp envenoms with blindside procs but I like to keep it consistent at 5cp.
    Potentially wasting a proc here?

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Yeah but you are overlooking that the value of a combo point that will only serve to clip an envenom (thus only gaining a very small amount of damage from the finisher itself) has a relatively low value. If you have SB up, you are almost definitely going to be clipping some. If you wait, you do get 1 less cp from your shadow focus mut/ambush but you can use the cp to actually increase envenom uptime, and you also lose less damage from resetting your swings while SB isn't up.

    Now I have no math to say which is for sure better, but I don't think its a safe assumption at all that your cp during SB are better because there is 1 more when the main benefit of cp usually is higher envenom uptime that you are rather unlikely to get during SB due having so many cp already.



    If Ven and SB are both up, absolutely do not chain them back to back over using them at the same time.
    The only time I come close to clipping is during lust+SB, even then I have just pooled to 90 before envenom. The only difference during SB is that I go deep into anticipation instead of 1-2 cp into it, which gets used up when I need to rupture. If I had issues with clipping I wouldn't be lining them up this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxi View Post
    Potentially wasting a proc here?
    Yeah I think I'm going to start just using it at 3cp anyways and tossing in a mut after if I'm not at 5cp yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  11. #31
    Hmm maybe a gear difference then? I definitely have to clip or risk wasted combo points. I'm sitting at 7-8 cp quite often. And remember at 7cp with SB up if you mut you have a reasonably large chance to waste a cp (specifically whatever % chance your crit is multiplied by 2 minus your crit chance squared). So if you are going 2 cp into it like you say you usually do and then hit mut with SB up, you're wasting cp rather often (25% crit means there is a ~43% chance you wasted a cp) and if you throwing away cp to get another cp from your shadowfocus mut that doesn't make much sense imo.

  12. #32
    Great debate so far. Keep at it guys.

    Decided to turn the OP into a Q&A so other readers can benefit from it. I've formulated some answers that I felt matched most of the replies in this thread, but please give it a second look and let me know if you agree. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19821243

    Some more fodder for debate - added replies according to what I'm doing atm.:

    Opening rotation in 5.1?
    Currently I'm doing... Tricks > Prepot > Stealth > (Shadowstep) > Ambush > SnD > Mutilate > Rupture > Vendetta > Shadow Blades > [Standard rotation until cooldowns wear off] > Vanish > Ambush

    Whats the optimal AOE rotation on 4 targets?
    Mutilate based or FoK based?

    Ambush for damage vs Mutilate for Blindside - what's the verdict?
    Shadowcraft shows a 117 DPS increase with Ambush on my current gear (Source)

  13. #33
    I open with Mutilate: potentially more CPs, more poison procs, and a Blindside proc. Sure, sometimes shit happens and nothing even procs off my Mutilate; when moons align it's Christmas every day of the year!

    As for the opening rotation, I use Sprint in lieu of Shadowstep (have Prep) and spend my first CPs on Rupture instead of SnD. Aldriana did the math and showed that there was a very minor difference (25 dps at the most) between the different opening rotation, so I prefer to build my energy regen right from the start and have a great feel, than maximizing my theoretical DPS but feel starved.
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  14. #34
    I'm not sure what the optimal rotation is, but I personally prefer to open with a 5 point Rupture, because if RNG is on my side, I'll potentially have 1 left over combo point, generated from various procs, with can net me a free SnD. Don't think it makes much of a difference either way, though.

    FoK based, I'd say.

    I assume Shadowcraft doesn't account for the potential Blindside proc you'll get. Point is, the damage done by the attack is completely irrelevant - you literally shouldn't give a shit. The amount of combo points you can gain, however, is far more important. Let's run through the simple numbers:

    - With an Ambush you will be guaranteed a minimum of 2 combo points, and a total maximum of 3, assuming Ambush crits.
    That's a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 3 for Ambush.

    - With Mutilate you will be guaranteed a minimum of 2 combo points, as well as 3 combo points if Mutilate is a crit, followed by another potential combo point, which could turn out to become 2 combo points, via Blindside.
    That's a minimum of 2 combo points as well, with a single Mutilate, but a total maximum of 5 combo points for a critting Mutilate and Dispatch.

    Needless to say, the potential of Mutilate alone is enough to warrant its use. Special damage has never been that important for Assassination. It's all about Envenom and Rupture uptime, really - which becomes much easier with plenty of combo points... *wink*wink*
    Last edited by Incineration; 2013-01-15 at 10:17 AM.

  15. #35
    That makes a decent amount of sense. Do you put in 2x Muti before Vendetta/SB to go off with Envenom?

  16. #36
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Concerning the opening rotation it's still not clear which is ahead, mut or ambush, I've yet to see complete maths for both sides - the difference should be negligible over the course of a fight. I generally follow this:

    Tricks > Prepot > Stealth > (Shadowstep) > Ambush > SnD > Mutilate > Shadow Blades > Vendetta > Mutilate > Rupture > standard rotation

    I use Shadow Blades + Vendetta slightly early to ensure a long up time on Rupture so I get more benefit from Vendetta, I add an extra mutilate before to gain benefit from the annoying fact that Vendetta is on the GCD, I use this 1.5 secs gaining energy to put me in a nice spot.

    This is gut feeling, I have not done the maths to support it.

    Optimal AoE is tough, I generally see better numbers with FoK at 4+ targets assuming I'm rolling rupture on multiple targets, the energy regen is high enough that you rarely have to wait for your next FoK.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-01-15 at 10:24 AM.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    That makes a decent amount of sense. Do you put in 2x Muti before Vendetta/SB to go off with Envenom?
    Ideally, you should use both on cooldown. Waiting around for the conditions to be optimal could simply result in less uptime down the road, assuming the fight is long/short enough.

    Don't pop them before you've got your initial Slice and Rupture up though. That would be a waste of Vendetta/SB uptime.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I'm not sure what the optimal rotation is, but I personally prefer to open with a 5 point Rupture, because if RNG is on my side, I'll potentially have 1 left over combo point, generated from various procs, with can net me a free SnD. Don't think it makes much of a difference either way, though.
    I'm not sure if this is no longer the case, but in Cata the DPS loss between a 5 and 1 CP rupture was less than that of allowing rupture to be off the target for even one second.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    That makes a decent amount of sense. Do you put in 2x Muti before Vendetta/SB to go off with Envenom?
    I don't use Vendetta+SB until I have a 5 CP Rupture on my target and Slice and Dice up.
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  20. #40
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    To add one more spanner to the works, in simc using the following opening:

    Ambush > Shadow Blades > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > standard rotation

    works out, over the course of a 6-9 min fight, ~200 dps (0.17%) ahead of the variations being proposed in this thread.

    Over the course of a short period of 80-120s, it works out ~1.4k dps (0.96%) ahead of the variations being proposed in this thread.

    This opening yields peaks around 5k dps higher, however, it's lower distribution bound is around 3k lower and upper distribution bound is around 4k lower - looked at from the short period sim.

    This means, in general it should be better, however it benefits less when the stars align and is punished more when the RNG gods want to show who's really in charge.



    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 11:01 AM ----------

    If I have time, I'll try and sim out when FoK outright beats single target dps (no multiple rupture rolling) to give some basic limits to work with.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-01-15 at 11:11 AM.
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