The Serpent’s Accord: A Mistweaver PvE Guide [5.4]

[Tatuin]

Wtf 8.41 on RJW for haste, and 4.22 for SCK. Query for all; is there a point that if we start using SCK as a preferable way to generate chi (when not spamming renewing, uplift, expel harm or chi wave/burst/zs) that haste becomes more desirable?

Also it might just be my impression but spamming SCK generates a tonne of mastery balls, which my enhance shaman and rogue are loving.. - (They love my balls etc, running joke!).

Strangly my rouge in the team also love my balls. tho he wont admint it :P

[wheresyoggy]

Hey guys,

Does anyone have a FW guide to hand? I recently dinged after playing BM to 90, and have acquired an ilvl500 set for MW. I think I have the MW part down now and would just like to learn how to FW for fights that it may benefit.

[Tryvia]

Any hope to see MW hotfix anytime soon or we have to wait until 5.5? I feel very frustated healing in 25 heroic progression

[Deleted]

Any hope to see MW hotfix anytime soon or we have to wait until 5.5? I feel very frustated healing in 25 heroic progression

Uplift nerfed by 30%. It is instant.

[Deleted]

Wtf 8.41 on RJW for haste, and 4.22 for SCK. Query for all; is there a point that if we start using SCK as a preferable way to generate chi (when not spamming renewing, uplift, expel harm or chi wave/burst/zs) that haste becomes more desirable?

Also it might just be my impression but spamming SCK generates a tonne of mastery balls, which my enhance shaman and rogue are loving.. - (They love my balls etc, running joke!).

SCK has always scaled exceptionally well in terms of HPS with haste, maybe going up a bp would be a good idea if RJW ever became cheaper in some way. Also, SCK actually generates less mastery orbs than plain old single target now.

[Gorsameth]

Any hope to see MW hotfix anytime soon or we have to wait until 5.5? I feel very frustated healing in 25 heroic progression

I honestly wouldn't expect a thing for us until 6.0 remake (god let there be a remake).

[Xio]

There are numerous calculators available, some of which provide very good at a glance data for scaling:



Using the one Suzi made (click it to access), you can see that a good number of my spells scale a lot better with 2 crit than 1 intellect. Those that don't or are on the edge will start to as soon as you drop any amount of crit.

I dont know if the math is right, I just see a table with some results. All helaers know int is flat bonus, and crit os a ramdom chance of it. Dispite of more mana crit is not a safe stat to gain more importance than int. Monks from Paragon and Method are going with int...

[Deleted]

a lot of good valid points there.
But a question to §5.4 where do you get the: it's only worth to lose "1800 crit or less" to get the next haste BP for? Sure haste is now less usefull than pre 5.4, but even then nobody could give a good estimation for the value of crit vs haste, so how did you com up with that 3% crit?

If you assume that all the 3000 rating used to jump to a next bp are taken from crit then your increase to Renewing Mist healing is ~3.8% at the cost of 5% raw healing on other abilities.

If you sacrifice 1800 crit, then the increase to Renewing Mist is 5.1% at the cost of only 3% of the raw healing of other abilities. However the other 1200 rating is also coming from awful stats such as spirit or mastery, meaning you're putting more of your itemization into stats that see use.

[Geodew]

a lot of good valid points there.
But a question to §5.4 where do you get the: it's only worth to lose "1800 crit or less" to get the next haste BP for? Sure haste is now less usefull than pre 5.4, but even then nobody could give a good estimation for the value of crit vs haste, so how did you com up with that 3% crit?

to §5.5: there's really no reason to stress crit's value as a regen stat. and a 4 or 5 crit => 1 spirit ratio is way over the top. in practice the effect is very minimal. (often negligeable)
Why? Example: I just picked a random log. our Paragons of the Klaxxi firstkill. Not too stressfull healingwise, but a longer encounter. I generated 53 stacks of Manatea. Excluding 36% crit, I would have generated 39 stacks. So every 1% of crit gives me 0.39 Manateastacks, or after usage: 4680 Mana. Over the course of the whole 8min fight: 4680/480 * 5 = 48.75 mp5. This is about 1/7 of 600 spirit rating.
Now consider this fact: the difference is about 3k rating you can effectivly switch by different gemming. which is about 5% crit, which is about 2 Manateastacks additionally generated in the above example. if you end your fight with 2 or more stacks of manatea, the additional Stacks you got from going full crit vs going full int gemming is nullified.

§5.4: 1800 crit rating I believe is an estimate that Reglitch said, presumably from messing around with the spreadsheet and then accounting for the fact that it overvalues Haste rating. This was indeed for 5.2-5.3, but most of what we lost from RPPM changes was effective regen from the LMG. A ~20% loss on healing from Lightning Imbued Chalice would not really change stat priorities too much, I'd think.
What might change our priorities is the much larger amount of SCK we're doing this tier. AFAIK it kind of has yet to be determined at what point jumping Haste breakpoints becomes very good just for beefing your SCK. When we have something more concrete we should update the guide.

§5.5: I think you perhaps misunderstood, I was saying you need 4-5 crit to average out to the regen gain of 1 spirit. In other words, Crit is about 1/5 as good as Spirit just for regen. Perhaps we should include the underlined sentence to clarify the matter. I believe 1/5 Spirit's regen is what other people have said as well, and your value of 1/7 is not too far outside the realm of RNG. I saw 1/4 more often in my logs but perhaps I was just getting lucky, so maybe change it to just say ~+5 crit => +1 Spirit.
You have a good point though that the overall effect on regen from crit gems over int gems is small, but still if two stats give similar throughput and everything else were the same, but one also gave regen, we would obviously pick the regen stat anyway, because why not. They're not exactly the same though; I did mention we should add that Revival is the exception for core spells that scale better with crit than int. Thus, I suppose it could also be reinforced that it is preference in the sense that if your raid counts on your Revival being as strong as possible that you could gear for int instead. However, crit will help more with your everyday throughput, giving you a bit more mana. There's a bit of a subtlety there that while you could have pretty much infinite mana using Chi Brew on cooldown, even spamming SCK and liberal SrM, that's weirdly not so great for your burst throughput: Having more mana from other sources means you can hold both stacks for a burst of chi for some part of the fight, and Uplift is quite a bit more HPCT than SCK or SrM. :P

Hey guys,

Does anyone have a FW guide to hand? I recently dinged after playing BM to 90, and have acquired an ilvl500 set for MW. I think I have the MW part down now and would just like to learn how to FW for fights that it may benefit.

There is a lengthy thread dedicated to it. A link to the thread is located in the guide on page 1, or you can use the forum search tool.

[Deleted]

I dont know if the math is right, I just see a table with some results. All helaers know int is flat bonus, and crit os a ramdom chance of it. Dispite of more mana crit is not a safe stat to gain more importance than int. Monks from Paragon and Method are going with int...

You're welcome to take a look over my spreadsheet then, everything there has been doubled over by myself. Monks have RNG built right into them, intellect doesn't make your healing more dependable past Revival and Life Cocoon which is the one stated caveat of crit based gearing. If you're interested I made a blog post a month or so back about it.

[Geodew]

I dont know if the math is right, I just see a table with some results. All helaers know int is flat bonus, and crit os a ramdom chance of it. Dispite of more mana crit is not a safe stat to gain more importance than int. Monks from Paragon and Method are going with int...

The thing is that a lot of our important heals come in large quantities of small heals: ReM, SCK, Uplift, SooM, EM. Pretty much everything but Healing Sphere, Surging, and Revival don't really have much RNG variation from crit. Also, my buffed crit chance is 40%. It's not like we're counting on a 10% chance event for our throughput. We're counting on 40ish of 100 40%-events for our throughput.

Further, decreasing your crit chance to 35% by gemming int is not really going to make your healing more reliable, simply because you're going to have a lot of crit no matter what you do with your gems.

We're actually talking about the Binomial Probability Distribution here. The statistical variance of 35% crit is proportional to 0.2275, and 40% crit proportional to 0.24. The difference there is small enough that, combined with the above reasoning backed up by the Law of Large Numbers, we don't experience much RNG from Crit. Let it also be noted that, upon reaching 50% crit, more crit will actually decrease the variance of your healing.

[Sinchi]

back on to RJW though, gonna be killing a few bosses on hc and trying to bend RJW around them to see what the results are like

I used it on NM Thok last night. It is very mana consuming...I was going to use Cleave trinket but I am not sure my mana would have lasted so...stuck with Horridons. I was impressed by the #'s I got from it tho. Was #1 on heals...with sck being my top. Haven't checked out my overhealing tho.

Also used it on norushen this week and it was the same.

Has anyone being using Sphere on stack fights?

Its going to shine more in Heroics where there is more constant damage.

I can't link logs yet or I would for Reglitch to go through...if you want to track them down(Gloryhogs on Smolderthorn - US)

[Oratory]

I tried both Zen Sphere and Chi Burst on Thok this week. After a couple wipes with ZS I decided I wasn't happy with it and went back to the trusty Chi Burst.

7:11 wipe with Zen Sphere; 7.4% of my healing
7:47 kill with Chi Burst; 8.3% of my healing

[Geodew]

I tried both Zen Sphere and Chi Burst on Thok this week. After a couple wipes with ZS I decided I wasn't happy with it and went back to the trusty Chi Burst.

7:11 wipe with Zen Sphere; 7.4% of my healing
7:47 kill with Chi Burst; 8.3% of my healing

Just to butt in-- % of your healing isn't the only relevant metric. Zen Sphere requires more GCDs to manage effectively.

[Astraios]

Why would you use RJW during thok, that seems like a picture perfect example of why you wouldnt want it? On any other constant damage fight you'd be able to spam soothing...what're you doing inbetween globals if you use RJW? jabbing for chi?

Don't get me wrong I'll try it once we get there as well for sure.

But I don't see how RJW could beat SCK.

[womd]

Why would you use RJW during thok, that seems like a picture perfect example of why you wouldnt want it? On any other constant damage fight you'd be able to spam soothing...what're you doing inbetween globals if you use RJW? jabbing for chi?

Don't get me wrong I'll try it once we get there as well for sure.

But I don't see how RJW could beat SCK.

this is from a pure normal 25 stand point. we did thok the other night i was using xuen, other MW was using RJW. during the stack up burst damage phase we CAN cast spinning crane kick w/o being interrupted, but i found i was too busy casting that to cast other things when the burst went out. maybe it was bad timing on my part, but with rjw you can hit it then uplift while its healing during the aoe bursts. did not try chi torpedo for some dumb reason so can't comment on how much better that would be. i could never seem to get the timing right with RJW and was always chi starved. also was not able to sustain it mana wise :/

[Deleted]

Anyone else feel like we are falling behind due to SoO having so many stack up fights? I'm having my ass kicked by a shaman and a druid 15ilvl's lower than me... Tried RJW and, well, let's just say I won't be touching that talent again. I've been thinking of a bit more mastery-heavy build for stack up fights but meh, dunno. Anyone tried that?

[Deleted]

Anyone else feel like we are falling behind due to SoO having so many stack up fights? I'm having my ass kicked by a shaman and a druid 15ilvl's lower than me... Tried RJW and, well, let's just say I won't be touching that talent again. I've been thinking of a bit more mastery-heavy build for stack up fights but meh, dunno. Anyone tried that?

on norushen hc, which is a stacked up fight, i outhealed a shaman and went on par with a resto druid (and i am the least geared)..overlall i think other classess are in a better place right now, but we can do our job .
i have to say btw that in normal modes i sucked so hard that i wanted to break my head against the wall..i guess low damage + going 7 healers for gearing (2 priest 2 pala!!) was driving me nuts

[Nakanai]

Why would you use RJW during thok, that seems like a picture perfect example of why you wouldnt want it? On any other constant damage fight you'd be able to spam soothing...what're you doing inbetween globals if you use RJW? jabbing for chi?

Don't get me wrong I'll try it once we get there as well for sure.

But I don't see how RJW could beat SCK.

I went with RJW and ZS on our Thok kill this week, and in between RJW (~4.5 sec CD), ZS, EH, ReM, and spending Chi gained from those & Chi Brew on Uplifts, I barely had any free globals. It would be a lot worse if I had gone with Chi Burst, but what to do in between globals isn't really an issue with that setup. Unfortunately, we didn't log the week before, so I couldn't compare my numbers to a more traditional SCK-and-CB-based setup, but I was happy with how well I performed. It is extremely mana-intensive, but there's all of p2 to drink mana tea. The fact that you can keep RJW up while drinking is huge. I wouldn't say that I find it a particularly fun playstyle, though. Having to hit ReM on CD every 8 seconds is constraining enough without adding a 10 second CD and a 4.5 second CD to juggle as well. But I wouldn't discount the numbers you can generate when people are stacked.

[Floopa]

When Method releases it's "fun" Thok attempt you'll see that HPS wise Monks are the best healing class in the game. If anyone is interested for Thok the Bloodthirsty (the actual kill) I ended up 3rd on the meter about 1%~ behind 2 Resto Shamans, and I got pretty unlucky RNG-wise and had to kite Thok in the kiting phases. I used RJW/Chi Burst.