Wow so many ppl are ungrateful this is why we don't get anything is because theres always complaining.
well we will see how usefull smoke is going to be in t15 raid content
so you basicly would accapt anything what blizzard is serving you ? it doesnt have anything to do with ungreatfulness that rogues dont get any love the whole rogue comunity discussed back and forth on beta. what happend were alot of nerfs and nothing new to fix our boring gameplay style! another DMG reducing CD wont fix our issues we have.
Last edited by Koji2k11; 2013-01-17 at 03:41 AM.
the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :
-Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}
I feel like people here are not considering PvP at all. They can't just buff Smokebomb to the extreme without breaking rogues in PvP. It's got its strong and weak points, yes, but it's finally a raid utility beyond Tricks of the Trade. 20% Mitigation for 7 seconds is not a bad thing. The distance will call for strategy and thought when using the ability. In my opinion, I think the fact that it is a small radius is a good move by blizzard, as it does not just give us a mindless raid-wide utility button to press, but something that requires some positioning and consideration.
I will admit, I don't PvE very much, but I can't see how people are complaining. Stop comparing classes, it's so pointless. It's like comparing apples and elephants. And before you go telling me that rogues don't get invited to raid because we have no utility, just stop. Rogues do a high margin of damage while bringing an interrupt, self-heal (At the cost of dps), great mobility (poor ramp-up though), reduced AoE damage taken, and great peels for add fights. Rogues aren't useless in any means, and with the buffs coming, rogues will be just fine.
Well, they can't just buff smokebomb to the extreme- but they COULD make it:
-cause line of sight inside the smoke as on live
-reduce damage dealt to allies inside the smoke by 20%
.....and.... -reduce damage dealt to allies within 40 yards of the smoke by 10% or 20%.
The 20% less damage taken for 5/7 seconds isn't going to break the pvp we aren't even in yet. I agree they can't buff it wildly, but having it affect the raid instead of only stacked members wouldn't be bad.
That being said? Honestly, I don't care. This is a great buff.
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 05:46 AM ----------
Ok, I'll tell you how. Rogues have very low utility, so fitting one is is like buying a sports car- YOU might find it fun, but it isn't practical, and the rest of your friends and family don't benefit as much as if you had bought an SUV, a truck, a super efficient something, or a station wagon. Each of those brings something else. But the sports car is faster! Well, for the first two years, then it's "bring the driver, not the car" and suddenly all those vehicles have the same 0-60 as you, and now you're just running it because it's pretty.
No it isn't. Rogues, warriors, and DKs have a LOT in common from a raid lead perspective- they all have to be near the boss, for instance. But one can death grip, two can tank, one can charge, one can mitigate damage, one can buff health, reduce damage taken, and increase damage done, and one can bring them back from the dead. The rogue only brings dps. The others bring dps almost as good, and a whole kit of stuff.It's like comparing apples and elephants.
You just fucking said you don't pve, and I run raids, so YOU STOP.And before you go telling me that rogues don't get invited to raid because we have no utility, just stop.
I really love my rogue, and I try super hard to be the best damage I can, but it's goddamned silly when the tools I bring are:
> dps
> tricks
No one else has a list that short. It's hard not to think that my friends are running most of the mechanics.
Blizzard has done a decent job of tuning rogues pretty high this tier. In fact, with the exception of hunters, who seem to enjoy mobile dps and the unlimited target aoe mutilate used to bring (but which is REALLY brought by tanks), pures are tuned pretty damned well this tier. The tier has enough fights that prevent affliction and arcane from just using their tunnel powers, so melee mobility can shine (and rogues are the only pure melee). Hunters are too low, but I think the mobility is meant to make up for it or something.Rogues do a high margin of damage
But dps isn't the only damned thing. Rogues don't bring, say, burst dps, as several other specs do. Rogues don't bring any kind of off healing, damage mitigation, battle res, mana fixitive, positional control, offtanking, or ranged damage. Rogues bring a flurry, which is being nerfed all to hell, and good sustained single target. We bring moderate burst with sub, and strong aoe with mutilate.
Don't kid yourself though- outside this narrow niche, we got nothing.
We bring the WORSTEST interrupt. It costs energy like the monk one, but energy matters to us a super lot. But who else brings interrupts? It's 2013 kid, EVERY MELEE brings it, and all tank specs. For paladins, warriors, and DKs, the interrupt is free. Among the healers, monks and paladins bring an interrupt. Mages have one, as do hunters and locks. I think priests and caster/healer druids are the only classes/specs without a low-ish cooldown interrupt.while bringing an interrupt
Our mobility is about middling for a melee. It's not bad. Our self heal is TERRIBLE. It's AWFUL. Both leeching poison and recuperate are poor at healing Run recup 100% on a full aoe fight, and then check the healing meters. It doesn't matter, it's like a rounding error.self-heal (At the cost of dps), great mobility (poor ramp-up though),
This? This is cool, it's a rogue trick. But it's about our ONLY trick.reduced AoE damage taken,
We aren't getting any buffs in pve except for this smokebomb trick and a bit of extra damage when adds die staggered and we can use marked for death. The blade flurry change is mostly a nerf (it DOES create a cool niche for us, but it's a rather rare one in practice). Will we be fine? Well, maybe. Honestly though, just check out the paladin, druid, and shaman tricks.and great peels for add fights. Rogues aren't useless in any means, and with the buffs coming, rogues will be just fine.
Rogues could really use some raid utility. Smokebomb is a great start.
Last edited by Verain; 2013-01-17 at 05:47 AM.
if blizz did put any effort into it they would made the ppl outside the smoke bomb take 20% less dmg too, since in pvp ppl outside the smokebomb isnt the one taking dmg anyway, so the los is 8 yards(old duration), dmg mig is 40 yards, 10 sec 3 min cd,atleast then it would be at par with the others since it would last longer to having a weak secondary effect.
Should be great for PVE at least!
Actually, they can be. But the important thing to note is- this change is minor in pvp. It's a pve change to provide raid utility. Smoke bomb is already am amazing and desired pvp tool. In pve, the only use it has had this tier is pretty much "wipe the raid if you forget to put it on cooldown for imperial vizier".since in pvp ppl outside the smokebomb isnt the one taking dmg anyway
This.
People commenting here that a 20% damage reducing ability is weak are wrong.
This is not usable on every fight, but it is very powerful on fights where all or much of the raid is stacking (I am thinking Yorsahj, Spine, Madness, Feng, Garajal, Elegon, Zorlok, Blade Lord, Garalon, Shekzeer, Lei Shi).
When glyphed, Smoke Bomb it lasts 7 seconds. It has an 8 yard radius and 3 minute cooldown, but this can still be very good and can save wipes. It is instant and free, and (I think) even off the GCD.
It can of course simply be used as a personal, when the raid is spread out, or just to help the melee.
Also, when combined with Elusiveness (-30% direct damage) this will allows Rogues to peridically soak relatively large direct hits of any type of damage. If the damage is aoe, Rogues can mitigate up to 85% of it (assuming Smoke Bomb is additive).
Be grateful. This gives Rogues some much sought after defensive raid utility.
A glyph which no longers prevent LoS, but which increases duration or shorten the CD or increases the radius (or a combination of them) sure would be great for raiding, but less so for PvP I suppose? I guess the LoS is what matters the most in PvP (correct me if wrong)
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 12:05 PM ----------
will cut it as ability with long cooldown (3 min) when you compare it with other raid damage reduction cooldowns (for example that shamans totem)
and whether 20% is enough to soak such high damage phases on its own like the Force And Verve on Zor'lok.
Atm I fear that this ability (while okay) will never be able to be used on its own without othe peoples cooldowns.
But we'll see how it turns out of course. I might as well be just talking nonsense since we don't know the new raiding content.
I, for one, love what they're trying to give us.
20% damage reduction as an on-demand raid-cooldown!? Yes, please!
What I dislike, however, is that it's tied to Smoke Bomb... Which reduces an otherwise fantastic cooldown to be a niche cooldown instead - only useful for certain scenarios.
the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :
-Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}
Smoke bomb has a lot of potential to actually be useful in pve (outside of probably unintended block damage ways). For example, it could easily be on it's own tier:
A pvp option which would simply be it's current form
A pve option - many times have we seen ideas for a poison bomb variation adding some nice flavour to the class if it even changed colour slightly
Or both - I suggested a while back that smoke bomb could benefit from your currently used non-lethal posion, leeching would create a healing bomb, crippling would lay a variation of frost trap, mind numbing would create a variation of solar beam and paralytic would create a variation of ring of frost.
The third option could easily stand alone, it would turn smoke bomb into a powerful cd, give rouges a lot of niche utility and offer us something fun to play with - something I feel we're missing.
Last edited by Ryme; 2013-01-17 at 12:50 PM.
I am the lucid dream
Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh
It makes more sense for smoke bomb to cause a sky high miss rate, but as it stands, the proposed is a nice addition.
What we really need is something like the use any ability/item skill from D&D. Very sneaky, very in tune and would make us more fun. Think symbiosis without giving anything back. Much more roguelike.
The shaman totem is only 10% damage reduction. It lasts longer and covers a bigger area than smoke bomb, but the mitigation is half as much. The health pool adjustment is gimmicky and really not useful when the whole raid is taking the same amount of damage. Spirit link totem is actually the weakest of all the healer raid cds, imo.