Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes

[Shaley]

It only hurts in the sense that you and I, who both raid 10 man, can now officially call ourselves second class raiders (as opposed to first class raiders, who raid 25 man).
I'm butt hurt and me and the other officers will be discussing pros and cons of merging after the raid tonight.

This dude serious? The drop rate is only going to be slightly different. Probably on par with the amount of Tier Pieces that drop in 10 v 25. You're going to change the landscape of your guild because of an RNG item that you can get in 10 man also?

[Deleted]

I appreciate the effort, but this is putting a bit of toilet paper on a gashing wound.
The wrath model had a lot more benefits, and freedom for the player (if you want to raid 2 per week, go for it. If not, fine. you just wont get the same rewards. This is exactly the current daily model; "you don't have to, but you'll be stronger if you do".

Hardcore player game time since ICC has been cut down by 50% because of shared lockout. It's that simple.

STEP 1 : separate lockouts.
STEP 2 : Implement Korea changes
????
Profit from more raiders online, and more things to do in game.

[Azrile]

The problem is that 25 mans are NOT harder than 10 mans. 25 mans are harder to ORGANIZE for leaders. They should be trying to find ways to make them easier to organize on the leaders, or find ways to reward the leaders more during the raid. Being a peon dps in a 25M raid is probably easier than being a peon dps in a 10man. There especially is no reason to reward 25M peons over 10M leaders. It is probably drastically more work to be a 10M leader than a 25M peon.

That aside.. this accomplish nothing. This is not enough to keep 25Ms who were close to falling apart from falling apart. It also is not going to make any 10Ms decide to jump to 25Mans.

A better solution. Allow the 25M raid to designate 4 leaders. Those leaders then get 2 personal bonus loot roles each week. This rewards the 25M players who are actually doing all the extra work, AND it may be enough to tempt some 10M leaders to try to jump up to 25M.

[Deleted]

would be interesting to have the actual percentages rather than this vague description, just so we can put a label on it. 10 man heroic will on average drop x ilvl vs the average 25 man x ilvl. If we have these numbers you could just call it what it is: 25man drops x ilvl higher loot than 10 man.

[Jeleh]

TLDR - We got raids wrong.

[DarthMetatron]

So in addition to the already average higher item level of 25's (because 25's already drop more gear - duh!) there will be an even more gaping item level difference between an equally progressed 25 than 10. I thought 25's are all about skill...it's actually the opposite...

It already takes much more skill for a 10M to be world first because of the raid comp restrictions and less gear drops, so now it will be even more sweet when Paragon still destroys these 25's again

[Spl4sh3r]

Is this any different from having to kill H LK for months so that everyone in the raid can get the mount? The argument that you are going to make the hardest of the hardcore raiders burn out because you make them... raid, is somewhat silly. Apparently you also make hardcore raiders burn out if you make a tier last too long or be too challenging, because then you just have top end guilds raiding like maniacs for weeks on end like in tier 11. I think that when you decide to be a hardcore raider you know what you are signing up for.

It is not even close to the same. With the mount example it will take 25 kills total (including first kill) to get the mount to every main raider (assuming you have 25 main and rest as spare). However to get the Thunderforge which in this case means Best In Slot you don't have a guaranteed drop rate for each kill so you might not even get it on those 25 kills at all. That said there is also the argument about RNG and Thunderforged pieces you already got drops so it takes ever longer. So even at a 50% drop rate, and I assume only one of these pieces can drop at a time it would take over 50 kills to get full Best In Slow for all raiders.

[Palaplu]

So first they introduce LFR, something that almost completely destroys servers communities, and now they bring 25-man loots back? Blizzard, what the hell have or haven't you been smoking lately? Introduce gear upgrades, remove it again. CRZ messes up camping, the one plus side we had as low-populated servers. Fix what you introduce, don't just let it be and make new things. I've never said this before, but this game is going downhill. Not catering the casuals, but the noobs; it shows in your attitude in blue posts.

[Deleted]

Oh man, why on earth do they make stronger loot dropping in normal than on heroic?
Now you can't even switch out for other members of your raid, if you don't need anything of the normal loot table from a boss, because there could be chance of a better item...

What a stupid and not thought through decision...

[MoanaLisa]

As compromises go, they must have hit it just about right. There's a lot of 10-man raiders complaining about being pushed off to the side for 25-man and a fair number of 25-man devotees who think it won't make any difference at all.

Well played, Blizzard.

[Deleted]

The problem is that 25 mans are NOT harder than 10 mans. 25 mans are harder to ORGANIZE for leaders. They should be trying to find ways to make them easier to organize on the leaders, or find ways to reward the leaders more during the raid. Being a peon dps in a 25M raid is probably easier than being a peon dps in a 10man. There especially is no reason to reward 25M peons over 10M leaders. It is probably drastically more work to be a 10M leader than a 25M peon.

That aside.. this accomplish nothing. This is not enough to keep 25Ms who were close to falling apart from falling apart. It also is not going to make any 10Ms decide to jump to 25Mans.

A better solution. Allow the 25M raid to designate 4 leaders. Those leaders then get 2 personal bonus loot roles each week. This rewards the 25M players who are actually doing all the extra work, AND it may be enough to tempt some 10M leaders to try to jump up to 25M.

lol.
you obviously don't raid 25man.

plus your solution would have no impact / benefit since raider would just designate as leader the person that needs loot the most, nullying your brilliant theory that 25 man is only harder for 4 people in the raid.

[Marooned]

Well the good thing is that if you have drops from say first 3 bosses of a raid, you will have some motivations to do them again, since there is a small chance for an upgrade, its a cool change.

[Duster505]

Ye - Sounds like 25 mans need more of the Special Olympics stuff than this to bother.

Fact of the matter - 25 man content is now dropping more loot and better loot. It will make the overall progression of every character faster and easier.

10 man content is now harder cause players will have lower ilvl than those in 25 mans. So now the real question is... are you a player ? or are you a leech? Join the right group size accordingly.

[Skippy88]

I look at my previous guild who ran 25's but due to a lack of players went down to 1 or 2 10's each week. They would love to return to 25's but without more people it's not going to happen.

[Moradim]

10 man gets 2 drops per boss.

TWO. DROPS.

and now 25's get better loot just for having 15 more people in the raid?

thanks for telling 10's to fuck right off, blizzard.

[Aoyi]

My only real concern with this is the way it contributes even more to stat inflation. We're apparently jumping from 496 to 522 for normal mode comparison. Now there's also going to be another 6 item levels on top of that plus a 2 tier jump to tier 16 to sccount for LFR. That means we're starting an expansion with 5 man gear that's 463 and ending with raid gear that's either 548 or 554 depending on whether they account for Thunderforge or not. Heroic tier 16 will be 561 or 567 respectively or higher if they do elite mode again.

I'm actually curious if this new thunderforge classification has a chance to drop from the token roll as well.

[Marooned]

A better solution. Allow the 25M raid to designate 4 leaders. Those leaders then get 2 personal bonus loot roles each week. This rewards the 25M players who are actually doing all the extra work, AND it may be enough to tempt some 10M leaders to try to jump up to 25M.

The problem with this kind of solutions is that raid leaders or active players already get all the gear they want in a month, so quantity doesn't matter, quality (ilvl) matters.

[AlisonPrime]

My guild has been working to rebuild to 25s (We lost so many people to Dragon Suck) We are about 4 recruits shy so we do 2 10 man teams (We used to swap between the 2 groups so no one felt they were on the B team but a fluke happened and now both teams are equal in progression) We keep pushing for 25s but alot of people feel like 25s arent worth it, this might help a bit, its not a complete fix, but its a step in the right direction IMO

Another good fix would to let 25 man raids drop items that are upgraded half way, this would give incentive to rebuild to 25s and its TOTALLY an option since the 10 man player base can still GET these items for about 750 valor points more.

[Nelle]

The chance in 25man better be more than just a pathetic change from 5% to 10% chance. The chance better be something like 25% compared to 5% on 10man to make it even matter.

Also what a silly way to just hide Item Upgrade in fancy words. Should just have sticked with Item Upgrade, but let 25man version of items do 3 upgrades and 10man do 2 upgrades or something similar and then have 25man starting with 1 upgrade already done.

[Deleted]

Bigger numbers thats all. Wont make any effect at all for anything - just guilds with bigger luck will be even "better" than those without luck. Not even close to dungeon finder and LFR.