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  1. #341
    Bribing players to play 25 man isn't going to work so well. The main reason why 25 man are not played anymore is the management - you need DKP or Loot Council, an external website to micromanage the loot is also helpful. If Blizzard wants people to play 25 mans without the need to bribe them they need to adds more features to the calendar and guild so the whole loot management and player management will be in-game and mainly done automatical. If we had a DKP system build in (optional) that tracks who played when and how long and such stuff much more raidleaders would switch back from 10 man to 25 man.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 11:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
    This is a stupid, pointless, useless change that doesn't address the problem they acknowledge is driving the 25 man decline: LOGISTIC COMMITMENTS AND REQUIREMENTS OF OFFICERS/GLs. Allow guilds to designate themselves as 10 or 25 man guilds to the game through interface, provide more automated control to ease leadership drudgery and better logistical services/monetary (real and/or in-game) discounts 25m raid groups than 10m. Problem solved.
    I agree but no need to exclude 10 mans from that. With such improved automatich raid controls many would turn back to the more "epic" 25 man style compared to the "family" 10 man raid style.




  2. #342
    really thanks for this change, it's a really good idea.
    cia 10 man raider ; )

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Taiphon View Post
    Worse: Since 25m have 2,5 times more players than 10m, if the droprate is only twice as high, it gives players an incentive to move to 10m.

    If they want to make an impact, give 25m one guaranteed thunderforged drop per boss, and 10m a 10% chance.
    you are assuming this drop will be an "extra" one. I would just assume any item would have a chance to be upgraded. Makes more sense. In which case, if the chance of 1 and 2% were correct, 25mans would have about 9,5% chance of getting atleast one thunderforged piece, while 10mans would have just under 2% of getting atleast one piece. sounds fair.

  4. #344
    Pandaren Monk Bantokar's Avatar
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    39 ilvl difference in the same tier. wow.

  5. #345
    I think thunderforged items should take no role in the world 1st race. If blizz turned the feature on after it was over, I'm totally fine with it. 25m already has "better" loot because of how RNG works, but as a primarily 10m raider I don't mind this extra "incentive".

  6. #346
    Epic! Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
    P.S.- Another thought: Allow registered and verified raiding guild leaders and raid leaders to receive discounts on their monthly subs. 25m GLs/RLs/officers get double the discount.

    Time is money, friend.

    Lol. That would never happen because people would exploit it for the discount.

  7. #347
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRagu View Post
    And eventually we will get LFR thunderforged items, just to please the majority...
    Not sure why they haven't put Thunderforged in LFR to begin with, just to keep the raiders in LFR.
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  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by nimryas View Post
    I'm against this change.. You should be playing 25 man because you like playing with 24 other players instead of 9, that is your own effing decision. You should not care about 10 man when you do 25 man, its about you, your fellow guildies and the game. NOT about you and other irrelevant players who, according to you, dont deserve certain kind of items.

    I fucking hate whiny bitches, die in a hellfire pl0x :')
    You are distorting the motives behind that. For example I always preferred 25 man, but now my guild can no longer keep with filling up the ranks (and we're one of the only three 25 man guilds left on the realm) and so we are forced to play 10 man (2x10 in fact). We hate it but it's better than not raiding at all. We are perfectly happy with having the same loot as 10 man guilds do, because we just like 25s for epicness and we have like 15-20 players that would really love to be able to play together. The problem is we don't have enough players with such attitude nowadays, so we welcome the change that would get more people interested in 25s, for whatever reason they've got.

    Personally, I would prefer that 2/2 upgraded items dropped in 25, because that would keep the same ilvl across all raid sizes but offset some 25 management difficulties by reducing the valor grind.

    There are players who like 10s, who like 25s and who don't care. In WotLK those who didn't care used to join the 25 raiding crowd and 10s were forced to play 25s for better loot and achievements. It was bad. Nowadays those who don't care are playing 10s because there are more 10 man guilds and they are generally more successful. And then 25s are dragged down into 10s because they lack players. This is bad too and without an external force the whole system is unstable with a tendency towards 10 man raids..

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronnix View Post
    Not sure I like the latest design philosophy, fix lack of content by adding more grind (item upgrades, rare version of items, etc).
    Lack of content, really? 16 bosses+all the other stuff to do? Sure, there's a lot of grinding, but then, there's always been grinding in WOW. You can definitely accuse MOP of having a bit too much required content, but I don't think you can hurl "lack of content" at MOP.

  10. #350
    IMO, there isn't really anything they can do that would ease the pain of organizing 25-30 entitled whiners into a raid group. When I raided 40 Man (and helped lead the raids), we had a really great group of people who were easy to work with. This game has fostered a horrible community who feels like they should have everything, right now, for no effort.

    Nothing will fix 25 Man raiding until the community fixes itself so the Raid Leaders and Officers don't have to deal with the majority of d-bags that play this game.

  11. #351
    For many 25 man raiding guilds this change is to little to late. My guild, for example, just a couple weeks ago stepped down to 10 man because we had to many new recruits who couldn't handle basic raid mechanics and we just weren't getting enough new applications to replace them. So this change does nothing to fix our problem which is the result of both a low Alliance population on our server, and the fact that it is easier to be a competitive progression guild in 10 man than it is in 25. It simply isn't worth the effort.

    In my opinion, this change isn't any different than the current loot system. You already get the same gear in 10 and 25 man raids. However, the only key difference is that you get more loot in 25 man. Okay, so we get Thunderforged gear in both 10 and 25, but it just drops more often in 25. In my mind I can see just as many people in a 10 man raid, percentage-wise, getting Thunderforged gear as a 25 man raid. 10 man guilds might whine about "getting slapped in the face" as Blizzard says, but you know what people who do 25 man raids deserve something for the extra time and effort they put into raiding. Everyone wants their rewards to match their effort and I think we can all agree on that point.

  12. #352
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbreeze View Post
    we had to many new recruits who couldn't handle basic raid mechanics and we just weren't getting enough new applications to replace them.
    Or your guild failed to train new recruits and just decided to kick them instead.

    Another 25 man too harsh on new players.
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  13. #353
    Or your guild failed to train new recruits and just decided to kick them instead.
    How do you "train" people not to stand in wind bombs? I would think that's raiding 101. But I would be delighted to hear your ideas.

  14. #354

  15. #355
    Dreadlord Forgottenone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Or your guild failed to train new recruits and just decided to kick them instead.

    Another 25 man too harsh on new players.
    The only way to train is to let them experience it a few times. Dodging something such as a wind bomb or the electric circles on Elegon only takes 1-2 attempts to learn because of how basic they are. It is like trying to "train" people to dodge Ragnaros lava traps, uh big red circle don't stand near. If they fail at that a few times you really think they will grasp the mechanics that are significantly harder?

  16. #356
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgottenone View Post
    The only way to train is to let them experience it a few times. Dodging something such as a wind bomb or the electric circles on Elegon only takes 1-2 attempts to learn because of how basic they are. It is like trying to "train" people to dodge Ragnaros lava traps, uh big red circle don't stand near. If they fail at that a few times you really think they will grasp the mechanics that are significantly harder?
    Recruiting some players whose end-game experience has been LFR need more than "1-2 attempts", given that they can stand in anything, DPS anything, heal everything, and tank everything.

    With no 10-man step-up-to-25 guilds any more (due to how LFR's achievement is effectively worthless, and also how raiding guilds have stricter rules on who they take since merging), the average player's raiding skill has been reduced.

    I'd much rather stick with a guild that had a consistent (or rotating) raid team that constantly failed, than a guild that kicked anyone for failing on bombs "1-2 times".
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  17. #357
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    If there is a higher drop chance for more beneficial gear the 25 man content should have increased difficulty, which it currently does not, to reflect why it should benefit from better drops. Much like during wrath. The premier raiders raided 25 man, 25 man dropped the premier gear, and 25 man took the most amount of effort.

  18. #358
    Epic! Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbreeze View Post
    For many 25 man raiding guilds this change is to little to late. My guild, for example, just a couple weeks ago stepped down to 10 man because we had to many new recruits who couldn't handle basic raid mechanics and we just weren't getting enough new applications to replace them. So this change does nothing to fix our problem which is the result of both a low Alliance population on our server, and the fact that it is easier to be a competitive progression guild in 10 man than it is in 25. It simply isn't worth the effort.

    In my opinion, this change isn't any different than the current loot system. You already get the same gear in 10 and 25 man raids. However, the only key difference is that you get more loot in 25 man. Okay, so we get Thunderforged gear in both 10 and 25, but it just drops more often in 25. In my mind I can see just as many people in a 10 man raid, percentage-wise, getting Thunderforged gear as a 25 man raid. 10 man guilds might whine about "getting slapped in the face" as Blizzard says, but you know what people who do 25 man raids deserve something for the extra time and effort they put into raiding. Everyone wants their rewards to match their effort and I think we can all agree on that point.

    That problem isn't completely because they implemented the shared lockouts. They would fix a lot of issues with 25m if they actually did server merges and helped low population servers. If you want to do 25ms you pretty much have to go to high pop servers like Illidan, A52, stormrage, etc. Guilds on low pop servers just can not keep up a 25m roster most of the time. Blizzard themselves are helping to kill 25m by refusing to do server merges and closing down low pop servers. CRZ wasn't the answer, this isn't the answer, they just trying to delay fixing the issues.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-01-24 at 07:18 PM.

  19. #359
    Ultimate solution fir the 10/25 dilemma. Get better at the game. 16/16 heroic main on 25m. 16/16h alt on 10m. 25's require more coordination, and more personal awareness. This isn't a debate, it's not a topic of discussion it's a fact. Decent 10 mans exist solely because people know that finding 25 relatively equally skilled players is a hell of a lot harder than 10. Stop pretending they require = skill simply because bliss made the ilvl's the same after icc. When you accept that fact, giving them better rewards for more difficult content makes sence. Quit bitching, get better and raid 25

  20. #360
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wycked View Post
    Quit bitching, get better and raid 25
    There's no community framework for 25-man any more. Blizzard have resorted to giving 25-man raiders slightly more carrots.
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