Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Absintheminded]

The problem with 25 mans was the normalized gear (as you say) as well as the extreme homogenization of classes. At that point, it's not necessary, interesting, or even fun to gather 25 trusted or experienced people to face a possibly more difficult challenge than to go into 10 mans. Insert vanilla reference and call it nostalgia or fanboyism all you want, I just think the vanilla model of having several different raid sizes for different goals was the better model. UBRS was a gearing dungeon/small raid that, for the most part, was played with 10-15 players depending on the time of vanilla, ZG was a later 20 man raid helpful to both newer raiders and experienced raiders in gearing up for the more gear-intensive 40 mans. They all played their part, but the most important thing is that they all got played.

Having all raids be equal and available as 10/25 man just makes raiding a little bit more boring, uninspired, and less-rewarding.

[Raelbo]

I think the problem started with Karazhan.

No, I think the problem started long before Karazhan. It started when people got this idea into their heads that the bigger the raid, the more fun it would be.

And while I can understand how one would imagine this to be the case, things in reality turned out slightly different. While the "idea" of 40/25 man raids seems very appealing, in practice 10 man raiding is just simply more fun (for most people at least).

Unfortunately I don't think there is any way one could know this without experiencing it though.

[Slant]

Need a hug? Since you are in the mindset that I need to read all your posts and do as you say maybe you should do the same. I do raid 25 mans, that is the main reason it pisses me off that ppl insist they need to be bribed to do them or act like running them isn't possible. If they wanted to run them half as passionately as they complained about not being able to then they would make it happen. I have also in the thread commented the only ppl that can really use the help the buffs in gear or # of gear drops gives are ppl on low pop or dead servers. That is an issue with CRZ and other bullshit fixes Blizzard has done to avoid server merging or free or cheaper xfrs. After all of that surprise surprise you are doing as I stated playing the elitist underdog role. The I am great our raid format is the best poor me routine is played out.

Oh, get off that horse... I am far from being an elitist. All I want is a fair competition and the respect that goes with it. You have no idea how arrogant the 10m became once they were given the advantage in Cataclysm. Am I bitter? Perhaps. And I don't care. Just read through the posts on here, how many tell me that 25m requires no skill and you can hide behind 15 others... Tell me who is elitist then? Sick of people like that.

[Deleted]

25 mans are already pretty damn incentivized by being far less RNG dependant on loot. 6 items per boss, much higher chance to find something useful for someone.
At this point I'm still wielding blue weapon (499 ilvl!!!!) because damn Lei Shi dropped 4 agility trinkets already and NO weapons at all (in addition to tokens), we also ran into disenchanting HC progression loot because no one could use that (while there are people without single HC piece in raid)

I tried raiding 25 at the beginning of the tier and it was a mess. Broke down on Elegon with bunch of best players of this 25m forming my current guild. It was hopeless, 50 wipes on Feng, never reaching second p1 on Elegon. 10mans are just so much easier to form and lead, also less PC demanding. WOW engine is really old and demands huge CPU computing power, i've never heard of a game that fried laptops on STOCK settings. WoW did. A game with advanced 3D engine would run at 30 fps on ultra on certain PC, while WoW would still stutter and slideshow in more tense situations.

[Deleted]

Let's just kill off 25 man raiding already. Having 2 raid sizes is a waste of time, effort, and resources anyway. I'd much prefer they switch to a single raid size, then focus on making even more quality content than before because they don't have to worry about tuning the encounters twice as much as they need to.

Here's hoping at Blizzcon 2013 they announce 15 man raids for the next expansion!

I agree, even tho I prefer 25 man raiding I wish they just would just kill it already, it seems like one of those inevitable things that we all know will happen but dont know when.

Im fairly certian that once Blizzard realize that thunderforged items did nothing to help 25 man raids they will decide that next expansion 25 man raids will be gone and we will all be raiding 10 or 15 man instead (I actually think 10 is more likely). In order to make a smooth transistion from 25 to 10/15 man blizzard will announce it at Blizzcon 2013.

[Alvito]

Oh, get off that horse... I am far from being an elitist. All I want is a fair competition and the respect that goes with it. You have no idea how arrogant the 10m became once they were given the advantage in Cataclysm. Am I bitter? Perhaps. And I don't care. Just read through the posts on here, how many tell me that 25m requires no skill and you can hide behind 15 others... Tell me who is elitist then? Sick of people like that.

There is the root of this problem. Playing a game and expecting respect based on how you play it. Enjoy the game if you worry over what a bunch of strangers may thing about you then you are doomed to be unhappy.

[Slant]

No, I think the problem started long before Karazhan. It started when people got this idea into their heads that the bigger the raid, the more fun it would be.

And while I can understand how one would imagine this to be the case, things in reality turned out slightly different. While the "idea" of 40/25 man raids seems very appealing, in practice 10 man raiding is just simply more fun (for most people at least).

Unfortunately I don't think there is any way one could know this without experiencing it though.

I have experienced it. During the levelup phase in Cataclysm, we decided to start early with 10m while the majority of our guild was finishing levelling and assembling themselves to be ready for raiding. We progressed at a steady #150 world ranking position. Granted, it's not the super top like Method or Blood Legion, but I know how 10m feels like.

We went back to 25m happily, because... in 25m (or 40m), when the raid leader says "Go!", the room starts shaking. In 10m... not so much. 17-18 dps looks and feels a lot different than 5-6. Look at heroism alone. In 10m it ain't half as impressive as in 25m.

[Jantasir]

i think what pissed people off most wasnt the normalizing of gear, it was when they made their shared lockouts.. Now you can raid 10 or 25 instead of both.. solution, removes the shared lockouts and i'm sure you'll see more 25s pop up.

[Deleted]

I tried raiding 25 at the beginning of the tier and it was a mess. Broke down on Elegon with bunch of best players of this 25m forming my current guild. It was hopeless, 50 wipes on Feng, never reaching second p1 on Elegon.

You guys failed because your organization and communication skills failed. Elegon is a prime example of why 10 and 25 man raiding isnt the same, you need 3 dps on each spark/pillar and all groups need to have equal dps in order to get them down. In 10 man you just put a dps on each one and tanks help out the lowest dps. During atempts 25 man is per definition not harder but getting the spark dps right in 25 man is something that can take hours of testing while it takes 10 mins in 10 man.

[Deleted]

Whenever we had troubles beating something in 25m we switch to 10m... all of a sudden the bosses die within minutes...

It is simply much easier to get 10 good players than 25 good players.

Lots of people would like to raid 25m... but it is hard to find a working guild... most have to recruit contantly... only due to the fact that many good players chose the path of easy 10m at the end. Less effort, same rewards...

We lost 8 guys recently... they formed a 10m guild... easier for them, faster progress... no need for steady recruitment, no dkpsystem, no homepage needed, cheaper ts/vent-server etc.

You are basically foreced to 10m.. .and this has to be changed... not back to forced to 25 m... but at least there must be incentives for the effort of 25m raiding...

[Deleted]

You are either running a million addons or you have all graphics turned on max, I promise you you can raid 25 mans without lagging at all. I have done it with a worse processor and an ati 5850.

Look at his sig and it becomes clear he's running those specs on a 47" screen which might explain some things

I've been lucky enough to have been in the same 25man guild (going through a few iterations) for the past 4½ years. We're by no means a top rated guild, but we do okayish and having fun doing so. We're as i suspect many are, always recruiting because, people come and go, and we actually transferred the entire guild and (most players in it) to another realm last year, because we ran out of recruits on the low pop realm we were previously on.

We're currently 9/16 heroic in current tier and that ranks us 353 worldwide on wowprogress among 25man guilds (1997 total) which goes to show just how few 25man guilds actually remains worldwide.

I'm not sure if this change is gonna do much for the situation, but I'm happy they are finally doing something atleast to try and remedy the situation (though i feel it might be too late)

[Slant]

There is the root of this problem. Playing a game and expecting respect based on how you play it. Enjoy the game if you worry over what a bunch of strangers may thing about you then you are doomed to be unhappy.

Oh, forgive me for playing a multiplayer game for the social aspects of it as well as the game mechanics. I'll change my attitude now and switch guild to whatever topguild is hiighest atm and throw away any pride I had for being in a certain guild for a certain amount of time. Loyalty? Pfft, who needs that. Other people in this game are mere extras to my personal adventure, right?

[Jantasir]

There is the root of this problem. Playing a game and expecting respect based on how you play it. Enjoy the game if you worry over what a bunch of strangers may thing about you then you are doomed to be unhappy.

i wish there were a like button.. i'd hit it repeatedly

[Granyala]

It was a mistake to give 10man the same loot.

But one of the main deterrents for 25man are the hardware requirements. We had quite a few recruits that really wanted to raid with us, but that stated:

"Raiding with 6FPS isn't fun. My Computer can't handle it. Sorry guys. Would have been nice."

Add on top of that, that most players perceive 10man as easier, due to the fact that it's a LOT easier to gather 10 competent people than 25. In 25man you always have wipes because THAT GUY got targeted .. AGAIN... you don't have that "baggage" in 10man.

Can 25man be salvaged? Honestly, w/o free server transfers, I think it'll be reserved for the high pop realms. All low and medium pop 25mans will die out because new folk flocks to "easy" 10s.

Look at his sig and it becomes clear he's running those specs on a 47" screen which might explain some things

Idiotic that I have to write that here, but there are 47" screens out there that merely use 1080p. No difference for your gfx card between 20" and 100" if the resolution is the same.

[Deleted]

Look at his sig and it becomes clear he's running those specs on a 47" screen which might explain some things

I am 99,9% sure that the screen he is playing on has a full HD resolution, the exact same resolution that my 23 inch screen has.

[Dole4011]

If people enjoy 25 mans more, then running 25 mans should be their reward. If they truly enjoy them more, the extra trouble inherent in getting more people together is worth it. If they have to have the payoff increased, then they don't think 25 mans really are worth it.

25 mans dwindling in popularity is only lamentable to the dying breed of people who prefer them. Instead of bribing people who'd prefer 10s into running them, people desiring 25 mans should look for other people who'd prefer 25 mans.

[Alvito]

Oh, forgive me for playing a multiplayer game for the social aspects of it as well as the game mechanics. I'll change my attitude now and switch guild to whatever topguild is hiighest atm and throw away any pride I had for being in a certain guild for a certain amount of time. Loyalty? Pfft, who needs that. Other people in this game are mere extras to my personal adventure, right?

Interesting jump from my statement. Since it is clear you just want to disagree for the sake of doing it, I'll just wish you well and be done with it. Maybe rereading the last statement you replied to again and figuring out how it has nothing to do with yours will help you out something is clearly bothering you. Either way best of luck.

[Granyala]

I tried raiding 25 at the beginning of the tier and it was a mess. Broke down on Elegon with bunch of best players of this 25m forming my current guild. It was hopeless, 50 wipes on Feng, never reaching second p1 on Elegon.

50 wipes.. oh my gawd... you spend two evenings on a boss and quit your guild because it didn't die??
My guild was kept busy by Elegon normal for 3 weeks or so. It took time to learn the fight and we needed the gear to compensate missing player skill. But eventually he died. Same with Garalon. And don't get me started on Fengs arcane phase....

And now? We even killed Feng 25HC.

Whats wrong with people these days, expecting every boss to bend over within one raid night?

[Deleted]

I am not so sure of this.

Blizzard want to keep 25 man raiding alive as a matter of pride. It doesn't matter so much how many people are raiding 25 man so much that it is available and supported, because it gives the game a certain amount of prestige to be able to offer 25 man raiding. I think if no one raided 25 man anymore, they would probably let it die, but as long as at least a few thousand guilds are progressing in 25 man, they will keep it going.

Also note that LFR has been a smash hit, and will continue to exist in 25 man mode. This largely mitigates a lot of the effort required to support normal and heroic 25 man raiding as well.

You have more faith in Blizzard than I do. I think Blizzard is a cold calculating company. They won't keep anything around that looses them money. As such I think they are constantly reevaluating 25man raiding. It's the old comparison: development time vs subscription loss.

Once Blizzard thinks that almost nobody would quit if they scrapped 25man raiding it will go away.

If Blizzard was really about the prestige of 25man they would have brought higher ilvls to 25man as they did in Asia. The reason they won't is becaue they are scared of 10man raiders unsubbing.

@LFR. You cannot possibly call that a 'raid'. The reason LFR is 25man is so that 10 people can carry 15 warm bodies to loot. I think the most time/effort is spent on tuning 10vs25 (since the mechanics are the same) which is pretty much a non issue since you have to tune LFR by itself.

[Deleted]

Whenever we had troubles beating something in 25m we switch to 10m... all of a sudden the bosses die within minutes...

It is simply much easier to get 10 good players than 25 good players.

Lots of people would like to raid 25m... but it is hard to find a working guild... most have to recruit contantly... only due to the fact that many good players chose the path of easy 10m at the end. Less effort, same rewards...

We lost 8 guys recently... they formed a 10m guild... easier for them, faster progress... no need for steady recruitment, no dkpsystem, no homepage needed, cheaper ts/vent-server etc.

You are basically foreced to 10m.. .and this has to be changed... not back to forced to 25 m... but at least there must be incentives for the effort of 25m raiding...

yes it is much easier to find 10 good players than 25 but on the flip side i know of really bad players that got carried to server firsts in 25, some fights are easier in 10 and others in 25. nobody is forced into doing 10man, its the exact same loot so you have the choice. i know from my own experience i didnt have even a half way decent pc so 25 was not an option for me after awhile, i also did not like the fact that in 25 people were like strangers most of the time.

what i also noticed about 25 was that the only extra effort in forming 25 raiders was dealt with by very few people so why should all 25 raiders get an extra benefit over 10man? alot of the raiders dont even supply their own gems/enchants/flasks, its all done for them by 1 or 2 people. in all my time in wow i have supplied myself even if i had the option to get it from guild bank etc, the one time we had the option of repair costs from raids alot of my guild didnt even use it