Brewmaster - A viable Maintank?

[chrism]

Howdy y'all,

First off, I have posted this text in the warrior forums as well. I do apologize, if this is by any means not allowed. I was hoping to reach a broader audience with my post, since I do not believe that too many warriors read the monk forums and vice versa. Again, if this is somehow prohibited, please accept my apologies and just fix this as you see fit (hopefully without banning my boots^^).

Here's my pickle:

I am currently planning out my guilds setup for the coming raiding tier and my co-leader (also MT) and I have arrived at the point where we're discussing "optimal" tanking classes for 5.2. Since he used to play a prot warrior before MoP (He rerolled Monk for this tier) and is very much disappointed with the overall viability and survivability of the brewmaster (the healers keep mocking him, too - it's pathetic, really ^^), we are currently thinking about bringing him back as prot.
However we are a little bit concerned with the coming nerf of warriors and the apparent buff of brewmasters. Additionally he started stacking mastery, which seems to have fixed the more extreme damage spike issues.

Now, I was kinda hoping one of you gentlemen would be able to help us make a better determination.

Is the Protection Warrior going to be a more optimal (or at least viable) choice for maintanking? Is the Brewmaster becoming stronger and more stable?
Are there any better options yet? Our second tank is a Blood DK who will be DPSing in 1-Tank Setup Encounters and we want it to stay that way.

One of the strongest arguments pro warrior I could come up with, apart from warrior being an optimal choice in respect to our overall setup (equipment distribution), is that he brings many raid supporting abilities (e.g. Banners) that are somewhat more viable than the ones brought in by a brewmaster.

Now, without any more rambling, what are your thoughts?
How bad is it gonna get (if at all)?

Cheers

PS: again, sorry for (somewhat) double posting

[gynshon]

I am assuming 10 man? If so, continue reading.

No offense to your guildmate, but I don't think he fully understands how Monk tanking works, stats, priorities and the like. Coming from a 16/16HM Brewmaster Main Tank, we are definitely viable. With the changes in 5.2 plus the encounters I have beta tested, we are still in a pretty good spot minus the Guard absorbs. While we can be a little more "bursty" on heavy physical damage fights, we make up for it in all the others. During heroic progression I single tanked Wind Lord, Protectors, etc with very few issues. It is all about proper stat priorities, managing cd usage, and active mitigation.

I am testing a full expertise build so I can finally have logs and put this issue to rest with regards to 15% vs 7.5%. I lean heavily on the 7.5% side, but have to have the firsthand knowledge to be able to explain it fully.

If your monk tank has questions, send him our way.

[Hyrican]

I have not killed all on heroic but maintanked all kills in 10man heroic 10/16 successfully with full agi haste built, meta, enchants, flask, food and trinkets. As i see the protectors hc mentioned here, i want to comment on this fight especially. Over the course of learning the boss with our raidgrp i went from feeling horrid to easily managable with proper and timed guards, cds and standing in blue circles Even Lei Shi were i feel useless, because our active mitigation does not help with magic damage is not that bad. Timed Expel Harm is your friend, it heals great with high vengeance for getting you topped up again. The dmg received is really comparable with other tanks, again if you time your guards and other cds successfully. You have to switch talents and glyphs between fights.

On a couple of encounters you use your Zen Meditation and Avert Harm as a strong raid dmg cd just as your warrior tank, unfortunately he can use it on any fight and we only in stacking phases. The amount of magical dmg reduction on your raidgrp because of ox statue while doing 70-80k dps with no special phases and moderate incoming tank dmg (more vengeance on difficult bosses for even more dmg and more AoE for more ox statue absorbs) more than makes up for that limitation. Ask your healers if they forgot to heal the monktank because he stays often at 100%. I had some deaths because i had 0 heals in 10 seconds because the 10 seconds before that i received 0 damage and all healers were doing something else. When asked, they replied i was bursted down... yeah right.

Small sample size and different style of healing leads to inconclusive and personal options. I only heard just the reverse that i am much easier to heal than our second tank warrior or paladin. And the amount of cheering from the healers for the ox statue absorbs on e.g. garalon heroic are also very nice. 1 Healer complained because he can never rank on worldoflogs with our grp...

[Pacyfist]

Another reason he may be getting instant gibbed more frequently could possibly be his total health. When I 1st started tanking and was undergeared I noticed I had like 150k-175k less HP than our other tank. Which makes sense cuz I was getting as much dps stats as I could and he was using stam enchants, stam meta, stam tanking shoulder enchant, etc etc. So when we 1st got to Will of Emperor I had like 430k hp or somethin like that and our other tank had like 575k of course a hit for 200k on me hurt a helleva lot more than it did on him and I would get gibbed more as a result.

I added a few stam enchants/trinkets and problem was solved till I got better gear. Now that I am geared for my content I don't use stam trinkets anymore. I generally have about 50-70k less hp then our other tank and I try to keep it that way. Certain fights brewmasters are worse than other tanks and other fights they clearly are better same for most tanks No way am I saying STACK stam, but if the other tank has double the hp of the monk well obviously that would explain why the monk is dying so much more. The less hp the monk has the less time a healer has to act to get him healed up. I dunno how progressed your guild is or how amazing your healers are but this may be an issue. The better the healing the less effective hp you need, my guilds healers are just OK so the extra hp pool to give them more time to react really fixed a lot of issues for me.

Learning little tricks for certain bosses too can help a ton. For example on lei shi, he can use healing spheres that can heal 175k per orb w/ vengeance and of course glyphed guard and such. Avert harm + zen med the cloak strike from bladelord, stuff like that can make a huge difference

[Christan]

I had some deaths because i had 0 heals in 10 seconds because the 10 seconds before that i received 0 damage and all healers were doing something else. When asked, they replied i was bursted down... yeah right.

this has been my issue lol... i'll look at logs and see only beacon heals for 10+ seconds before death, but i guess that is the definition of burst...you took all that damage unexpectedly all right before you die (anyone who dies takes that damage before they die...it's a misnomer but you know what i mean)

but yeah i've died having hots fall off of me, then when i splat im like...well i wasn't getting any heals... just don't take any damage and heals get distracted, then you take 3 hits in 5-10 seconds and die lol...sigh

[Kisho]

The short answer is that Brewmasters are absolutely viable and excel at certain fights. As an example, I recently tanked Blade Lord Ta'yak heroic. After the kill, I looked at the damage taken logs: my Paladin co-tank took significantly more damage than I did, and hell: I even took less damage than some of the raid! That was quite a fun moment, haha.

If your friend has questions about Brewmasters, feel free to send him to these forums. We'll be happy to help and put any concerns of his to rest. If he wants to play his Brewmaster then he absolutely can, without holding your raid team back. But you do need to know the class, and Brewmasters can have a steeper learning curve than most. You may even think you know what you're doing, but then it turns out you've got it really wrong: that's what happened to me, at any rate.

[Deleted]

one of the main issue i found at first coming from prot warrior or druid tank to be a monk tank was the healer wasnt used to me as a monk...but since one of our main healers is a heavy altoholic, its started to get better.

[chrism]

Wow...
Thank you all so much for your posts, really appreciate it!
This is gonna help out immensely I'm sure.

I will discuss all that has been said here with my colleague and might be getting back to some of you!
Thanks for offering your support!

[Pacyfist]

Ultimately if your co gm loves the monk playstyle send him here and we can help, kisho and gynshon really know what they are talking about. If your co gm thinks he would just rather play his warr, tell him to do what he loves! I mean warriors do have great utility, and raid cooldowns as well. TBH either tank will be great for the raid as long as he knows the fights, knows the class(we can help w/ this), is not too undergeared, and is enjoying himself :-)

On the counter point if the monk uses his cooldowns and such he can be just as viable and the absorbs a BM can do imo is not something that should be overlooked. As I said in my guild healers are our weak link and between me and my prot pally tank, we can sometimes outheal one of our healers as a tank, and if we include fights like windlord, I can be the #1 healer lol. I am sure this reduces the stress that our healers have to deal w/ on several fights.

If he wants to talk to someone I will be glad to help I am pacyfist on us-zuljin. I admit I dunno the class nearly as well as the 2 guys I mentioned earlier in the post, however I will be more than happy to help

[siccora]

It's always good to have 1 avoid and 1 block tank. in our 10 raid we are DK and monk. Sometimes I feel outtanked by the DK because of his self heal. And maybe with 5.2 i'm switching to a prot warrior just to have this 2 sorts of tanks in our 10 man group.

[Sorrior]

one of the main issue i found at first coming from prot warrior or druid tank to be a monk tank was the healer wasnt used to me as a monk...but since one of our main healers is a heavy altoholic, its started to get better.

Gotta agree here. I've had guys who know to try and keep some HoT on me as well as make sure i'm capped...others who think i'm squishy cause of stagger building up(et i get to red a couple times by mistake we lived) and yeah. If healer don;t know about stagger they tend to make some mistakes/assumptions.

[Kisho]

Ultimately if your co gm loves the monk playstyle send him here and we can help, kisho and gynshon really know what they are talking about.

Haha, thanks. Credit where credit's due though: pretty much everything I learned was from Madgod's guide and the subsequent discussion on these forums between people far more intelligent than I (such as Madgod, Chuupag, SurrealNight, and loads more). I guess my name springs to mind because I need to help people, it's like some sort of compulsion. :P So I post like, a ton of posts each day.

And that's enough OT from me. Just wanted to share the love, so to speak.

[Mackeyser]

I have not killed all on heroic but maintanked all kills in 10man heroic 10/16 successfully with full agi haste built, meta, enchants, flask, food and trinkets. As i see the protectors hc mentioned here, i want to comment on this fight especially. Over the course of learning the boss with our raidgrp i went from feeling horrid to easily managable with proper and timed guards, cds and standing in blue circles Even Lei Shi were i feel useless, because our active mitigation does not help with magic damage is not that bad. Timed Expel Harm is your friend, it heals great with high vengeance for getting you topped up again. The dmg received is really comparable with other tanks, again if you time your guards and other cds successfully. You have to switch talents and glyphs between fights.

On a couple of encounters you use your Zen Meditation and Avert Harm as a strong raid dmg cd just as your warrior tank, unfortunately he can use it on any fight and we only in stacking phases. The amount of magical dmg reduction on your raidgrp because of ox statue while doing 70-80k dps with no special phases and moderate incoming tank dmg (more vengeance on difficult bosses for even more dmg and more AoE for more ox statue absorbs) more than makes up for that limitation. Ask your healers if they forgot to heal the monktank because he stays often at 100%. I had some deaths because i had 0 heals in 10 seconds because the 10 seconds before that i received 0 damage and all healers were doing something else. When asked, they replied i was bursted down... yeah right.

Small sample size and different style of healing leads to inconclusive and personal options. I only heard just the reverse that i am much easier to heal than our second tank warrior or paladin. And the amount of cheering from the healers for the ox statue absorbs on e.g. garalon heroic are also very nice. 1 Healer complained because he can never rank on worldoflogs with our grp...

Man, you've really saved me some heartache. I'm a 479 geared BrM tank with 3 blues (hands, waist, pants) and LFR 2pc and basically gone haste, but added some stam enchants and gems because our heals were kinda getting burned out and we're in a transition (anyone who reads that and has been playing knows EXACTLY what that means).

By the raw and net numbers, I do pretty well for my self in general and even in LFR with fully geared fully updated raid tanks of other classes, I out-mitigate them. I know that if I keep at it, the Monk class can be VERY special and rewarding if played well. And, yet I was getting 2 shotted on Elegon in Normal after using my Diffuse Magic on the Breath and with EB up, seeing my stagger at 9k which is OBSCENELY low for being on the boss for around 10 secs, I'd get straight jibbed.

I couldn't figure it out, our two Raid Leads couldn't figure it out, our Heal lead couldn't figure it out. Only thing we saw was that I'd go 10+ seconds without heals. Every time. Every....time.

Now I get that on the transition, especially with Diffuse Magic is up, I just don't take hardly ANY net dmg, especially if I have a vengeanced Chi Wave bouncing between me and the boss, I'm using my GotO globes and I'm using Elusive Brew properly. So, on the taunt transition, the heals are simply watching bars and mine doesn't move so.... I get no heals. Then EB drops off, I don't have Diffuse Magic for the second breath and I really need heals and I'm dead either from a 1-2 combo or from the breath.

Thank you so much. Saved me so much time.

[imoom]

in my experience, monks are quite weak at low ilvl. my personal opinion is that first at ilvl 500 or 505 it started to really shine, since at that point we have enough haste and crit and still be able to have hit/expertise caps.

started this tier as paladin tank, and they are so easy to play, and perform good over all ilvls, i really feel that monks is really nice the higher the ilvl is, and in 5.2 the ilvl going through the roof, + the t15 set bonuses looks nice.

in the end though, play what you like the most. (to your friend), all tanks can tank all situations really.

thats my 5 cent, (btw i want em back cos im broke).

// Propalm 16/16hc brewmaster tank PoV

[Tradu]

in my experience, monks are quite weak at low ilvl. my personal opinion is that first at ilvl 500 or 505 it started to really shine, since at that point we have enough haste and crit and still be able to have hit/expertise caps.

started this tier as paladin tank, and they are so easy to play, and perform good over all ilvls, i really feel that monks is really nice the higher the ilvl is, and in 5.2 the ilvl going through the roof, + the t15 set bonuses looks nice.

in the end though, play what you like the most. (to your friend), all tanks can tank all situations really.

thats my 5 cent, (btw i want em back cos im broke).

// Propalm 16/16hc brewmaster tank PoV

I disagree about being worse at lower ilevels. Granted, I've only tanked MSV normal(Stoners heroic), Bladelord, Garalon, Windlord and last 3 in ToES on normal. Even in low ilevel gear, I was able to easily keep expertise and hit softcaps(orc racial probably helped a bunch with that) and stay at very high haste levels(can't remember how much, but in my current ~498 Windwalker gear I'm reforged for ~4k haste and 9,5k crit, so I think I was at about 5k haste in full haste reforges when I was still tanking) and thus take lower damage than my paladin co-tank on most fights. No idea how it is at higher gear levels, as I haven't tried.
I can definately see how monk tanks are gonna scale extremely well with better gear due to easy 100% Shuffle leading to more DPS/healing(I guess?) and 100% Elusive Brew uptime is gonna be quite silly.

[Tharax]

15/16 H 25 here, working on Sha. I've MT'd every fight and had no issues. We're absolutely viable.

[Mackeyser]

I think the issue is between iLvl 460 and 500.

Because right now, I couldn't reforge to go 15% expertise if I wanted to try for the 100% EB uptime if I wanted to. I couldn't even get to 12% and my Energy regen would be ridiculously low. Without 100% EB uptime, I have some really vulnerable periods where I'm between CDs and just get punched in the face.

Once I get upgrades, I know it will get loads better, but that gap from 460 to 500 is a problem, I think.

[Deleted]

I think the issue is between iLvl 460 and 500.

Because right now, I couldn't reforge to go 15% expertise if I wanted to try for the 100% EB uptime if I wanted to. I couldn't even get to 12% and my Energy regen would be ridiculously low. Without 100% EB uptime, I have some really vulnerable periods where I'm between CDs and just get punched in the face.

Once I get upgrades, I know it will get loads better, but that gap from 460 to 500 is a problem, I think.

I'm not sure where you get the 100% EB uptime, because that's simply not possible. Not even in full heroic t15 2/2 valor upgraded raidbuffed with stacking crit till your eyes bleed it will be. Maybe we'll get close to it in full heroic t16 if they add a gazillion sockets to everything again, cause you need something silly like 90% crit for that to happen if I'm not mistaken.
Even in full 463 heroic dungeon gear it's not too bad, if you gem/enchant/reforge properly you should be able to have enough haste to keep shuffle/guard up which is your main concern to avoid getting smacked in the face. Monk tank is very viable if you ask me and if you get destroyed on a raid boss, you're:
- way undergeared for that boss.
- doing something wrong (most likely not keeping shuffle up and not using guard enough).
- supposed to get destroyed (shek'zeer heroic add phase for example).

We also have some nifty tools to deal with magic damage, and above all: we're fun to play!

[Deleted]

We are very viable, people tell me all the time DK's are the best tanks, but I believe Monks are(at least the most fun to play)! We are however as monks easily affected by who is played by us due to our high skill cap. For example a really good player and a really bad player, playing a DK might not be as noticeable as if they were playing a Monk. Blizzard themselves said that monk tanks are more suited for the more experienced tanks looking for something new and I completely agree.
Yes a block tank can be overall useful, why not have your fury warrior or holy paladin get a tanking OS and step in IF needed? It's always nice to have a tank in reserve anyway.
I play with a DK as a partner and there have never been a need for us to have a paladin or warrior step in for us, sure Wind Lord would be easier with a block tank, but not necessary.
Our Ox statue makes my healers cheer of joy on heavy raid dmg fights and avert harm can be very useful when the raid is grouping up to split a heavy attack for example.

Oh and... is it a matter of choosing between a monk OR a warrior for your setup? Because in that case I would actually choose the warrior, banners + rallying cry is just too important and they provide crit as well. Although you will loose a lot of tank damage and threat (cuz warrior threat sucks both aoe and single target)

I'm not sure where you get the 100% EB uptime, because that's simply not possible. Not even in full heroic t15 2/2 valor upgraded raidbuffed with stacking crit till your eyes bleed it will be. Maybe we'll get close to it in full heroic t16 if they add a gazillion sockets to everything again, cause you need something silly like 90% crit for that to happen if I'm not mistaken.
Even in full 463 heroic dungeon gear it's not too bad, if you gem/enchant/reforge properly you should be able to have enough haste to keep shuffle/guard up which is your main concern to avoid getting smacked in the face. Monk tank is very viable if you ask me and if you get destroyed on a raid boss, you're:
- way undergeared for that boss.
- doing something wrong (most likely not keeping shuffle up and not using guard enough).
- supposed to get destroyed (shek'zeer heroic add phase for example).

We also have some nifty tools to deal with magic damage, and above all: we're fun to play!

I realize the stat requirements becomes steeper the closer you get to a 100% EB uptime, but im at 70% uptime on a fight where I use it off cooldown so maybe we aren't as far off as you are saying?

[Deleted]

70% uptime on elusive brew? Any logs of that?