Thread: T15 4p

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Simcraft puts soul reaper at ~170k for 2h frost and obliterate at ~160k in terms of damage per execute time in bis gear. This doesn't factor in rune cost to my knowledge, only time spent. ( Both are 1 gcd so its average damage/1)

    I'm not sure how one would go about quantifying how much an unholy rune is worth when compared to a frost rune, but if its 50-50, then soul reaper does over twice the damage as obliterate given rune cost. I assume frost runes are worth more for frost than unholy runes are but its worth more for sure.
    That's what I was saying. I simmed myself with SR in the rotation. I got like 103k dps out of 10k iterations on a patchwerk fight. I re-simmed without it and it lowered me by about 1.3k dps. Going by the simulator on this isn't 100% truth. In my opinion, SR is a situational ability.

    Say I have almost no RP and the only two runes I have left are and unholy and a frost I'm going to Oblit because it can keep my rotation running smoother and still deal the same damage. How does this make it run smoother? Well 1 Rune = 12 RP while 2 Runes = 24 RP. 20 RP = 1 FS. 1 FS = 45% chance to revive a depleted rune. Same situation, You're out of RP and only have 1 Unholy and 1 Frost left. What do you do? SR and get left with an Unholy and the inability to FS and possibly keep your rotation running.

    Maybe you could do a combination like an SR and a plague strike but that just seems like a waste of an Unholy rune for very little dps gain.

    Say you have only one Death or one Frost rune left and nothing to match it with for an Oblit, that's when I SR.

    Say I have full Runes (two of each) and about a half a bar of RP. I'd use SR when up until my rotation slows down; if it even does. Why would I use SR then? Because I have plenty of resources to keep my rotation going. I have a large amount of FS still in my rotation to revive that one rune I just spent.

    To me it's all about what keeps my rotation going.

  2. #22
    You're misunderstanding the point of playing a resource limited spec.

    It's not about spending resources now rather than later, or filling as many gcds as possible.

    It's about converting resources to damage in the most efficient way possible.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    People always complain about Soul Reaper costing runes, why don't warriors ever complain about execute costing rage? Its all about doing the most with your resources. If it cost RP, there would be very little skill involved in our execute phase.

    What do you use that empty frost rune on? Well, your runes should be coming back at random intervals due to RE. Thus you just sit on it. Its not wasting resources because you aren't capped.
    Because Execute's cost doesn't cripple a warrior's main damaging ability like SR does.

    As 2h frost with plenty of haste, I am often stuck waiting to do something with my plague rune. Assuming I drop DnD once, I can't do so again for another 30 seconds that I'm stuck waiting for Horn of Winter to come off CD so I can maybe put out another Frost Strike. What am I left with? Plague Strike? 2nd most useless ability next to Blood Strike. And if I do get frustrated enough to use it, then my runes are staggered in the other direction and I still can't Obliterate, which means I can't proc Rime, either.

    The simple fact is this - Frost has a great, smooth rotation based around a priority system. Everything fits into place without any ambiguity about what I'm suppose to be doing. Then Soul Reaper comes along and like the fat friend of a hot chick gets in the way of your play.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    You're misunderstanding the point of playing a resource limited spec.

    It's not about spending resources now rather than later, or filling as many gcds as possible.

    It's about converting resources to damage in the most efficient way possible.
    You're half right. The more GCDs you fill the more procs you can get; Rime and RE.

    Their is some merit to "converting resources to damage in the most efficient way possible." But just as I said with SR, it's situational.

    Say you have a FS available you're two seconds away from an Oblit and KM procs. You would want to save the KM proc for the coming Oblit since Oblit is roughly double the damage of a FS. Same scenario except, instead of two seconds away from an Oblit, you're seven seconds away from one. You'd want to use it on the FS so you can get some RE procs.

    Saying that one way of playing is the absolute best method or that using SR is black and white, either you use it or you don't, isn't the way to get the most damage out of your rotation. You have to be able to differentiate between a DPS gain and a DPS loss. Waiting a little bit can be a gain but waiting too long can be a loss. So you have to be able to tell the difference during an encounter.
    Last edited by Fatalcombat; 2013-02-08 at 05:48 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalcombat View Post
    You would want to save the KM proc
    ... /facepalm

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalcombat View Post
    Say you have a FS available you're two seconds away from an Oblit and KM procs. You would want to save the KM proc for the coming Oblit since Oblit is roughly double the damage of a FS. Same scenario except, instead of two seconds away from an Oblit, you're seven seconds away from one. You'd want to use it on the FS so you can get some RE procs.
    while i understand the frustration SR can be for 2-hand frost, you should still use it, it's still a dps increase, and you shouldn't ever have 0 runic power, so if you hit sr and km procs you simply hit fs and it crits yay. i wouldn't wait 2 seconds for a km-ob because your white swing will swing again, and has a high chance of overwriting your km proc thus lowering your overall dps. hit fs and then simply hit ob once its up, if i have my resources tightly managed i may wait upto a half second but no more. i do hope your using a swing timer, very helpful for frost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    Man, I wish they would just convert Soul Reaper to something like 75 RP cost, already.
    the problem with this is, one 75 runic power LOL, almost 4 FS for one sr, second, SR is not a problem for dw-frost or unholy dks, you have rune tap for dw-frost and you simply hit sr instead of ss for unholy every 6 seconds. now if you added a runic cost overall it would hurt those other 2 specs and only help 2-hand frost, but it would be garbage if it were 75 runic power that is like 4x the cost and would destroy your re procs thus overall lowering your dps by i would say a ton at that cost.
    Last edited by damescool; 2013-02-08 at 08:17 PM.

  7. #27
    You do not lose any RE procs by using soul reaper. The only thing you "lose" is a "chance" at a Rime proc. Sadly the only thing about SR that is black and white is using it on something that will die before it would proc.

    The advanced frost thread on EJ had a section about waiting, it now says the math is wrong but that the section is outdated and incorrect. I do not remember exactly what it said in regards to "waiting for obliterate when you get a KM proc" but I assume it gave some type of number like "If seconds until obliterate runes are ready is less than X, hold KM". Your assertion that this number is "2", or that "7" is too long, is likely inaccurate. Especially since the math in that thread is wrong. There almost certainly is a time where waiting for obliterate is worth it ( even if its .1 secs, waiting is waiting) but I don't know what that exact number is. Besides, this has nothing to do with the discussion about SR.


    And its not situational to convert runes/rp in the most efficient way possible. The 3 factors that would influence an ability for any class's use would be, how long it takes for it to be used, resource cost, and damage. For instance, if two abilities have the same execute time, resource cost, but one has lower damage. You would use the higher damage one.

    In our situation, you have an ability that deals more damage, for the same execution time, and for half the resource cost. The only thing that would influence use of SR in my opinion would be if you have a KM proc and you have obliterate ready. While the frost thread still says SR>OB, i'm not sure. In any case, in 5.2 with SR benefiting from KM, SR>OB always. Even under KM.

  8. #28
    There's no reason not to save a KM proc for an obliterate if you know you're going to be able to obliterate before your next auto attack lands.

    Not that most people pay that much attention to what they're doing.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    You do not lose any RE procs by using soul reaper. The only thing you "lose" is a "chance" at a Rime proc. Sadly the only thing about SR that is black and white is using it on something that will die before it would proc.
    not sure if this was pointed to my post, but if it was you miss read what i said in response to someone suggesting a 75 runic power cost to SR, which IMO, is ridiculous. that would leave you runic starved, plus cost the equivalent of almost 4 Frost strikes which is much more in damage than 1 SR, also, your potential RE procs, which would be quite a few with overall averages, specially now the t15 4-set is raising execute time to 45%

  10. #30
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure this is a quote from all top ranking DKs.

    "Ignore KMs unless it's obvious."

  11. #31
    I don't understand this thread at all. How is Soul Reaper a situational ability? Using the ability grants more dps than not using it.....you even admitted that when you talked about the sim. Consider also that if Soul Reaper is only used in a third of the entire sim, the dps gain during execute must be much larger than the overall dps increase. When you factor in burst at the start with lust, it's quite a bit more than 3 times the overall DPS gain.

    Consider now that the last half of a fight is almost always significantly harder than the first half - why would you not use an ability that speeds this phase up?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalcombat View Post
    But if you keep using SR you get - 1 Frost ( SR) > - 1 Frost / 1 Unholy (Oblit) > 2 Death (Oblit) and then one random left over Unholy rune.
    WRONG!
    Last one would be 1 death / 1 unholy, leaving you with 1 death for the next sr

    2 death, 2 frost, 2 unholy every 12 or so seconds, depending on haste and RE procs
    1 frost every 6 seconds for SR
    1 frost + 1 unholy for obli as often as possible
    Should be 2 SR and 2 obli in 12 seconds, much better than 3 obli
    And no, you wont lose rp by using SR, you just get 12 + 12, rather than 24 with one gcd like you would with obli

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 12:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalcombat View Post
    Yeah, it's half the cost of Oblit and the same damage. But it also uses one of the core runes for frost leaving you with a unholy rune that you can do little with and generating you half the RP. I'd rather take my chances doing Oblits then FS leaving me with a chance to proc a depleted rune. Chances are if it happens it will be either a Frost or Death rune and then I can SR if I don't have enough to do an Oblit.

    TL: DR If SR hit a little bit harder it would be worth the Frost Rune as 2H.
    Fun fact: you got TWO death runes, they can be used for anything

    Edit: If SR did 50% of the damage it does, it would still be worth the frost rune as 2h

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 12:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalcombat View Post
    You rank on normal mode. That means nothing to me.
    And you are obviously getting boosted in heroic mode, because people with that bad knowledge of their spec can't possibly be useful to a real raiding guild
    Last edited by zoomgpally; 2013-02-08 at 11:25 PM.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalcombat View Post
    You rank on normal mode. That means nothing to me.
    I rank on Normal Mode. Still do more DPS then you do.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    people with that bad knowledge of their spec can't possibly be useful to a real raiding guild
    You'd be surprised. Lots of very high-end raiders simply aren't interested in theorycraft. Most fights aren't total DPS races, after all. Most fights have a margin for error, even when you first get there with weak gear. Following instructions, situational awareness, lack of drama, and reliable attendance are much more important to high-end progression than drawing out that last 1-2% of DPS.

    You can make mistakes like delaying for KM or skipping optimal talents like Plague Leech and still be a great asset to your guild. The problem comes when you join forums like this one and think you can contribute to a theorycrafting discussion just because you progressed through heroics, like that alone gives you credibility. It doesn't.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2013-02-08 at 11:38 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    You can make mistakes like delaying for KM or skipping optimal talents like Plague Leech and be a great contributor to your guild. The problem comes when you join forums like this one and think you can contribute to a theorycrafting discussion just because you progressed through heroics, like that alone gives you credibility. It doesn't.
    Quoted for emphasis.

    I theorycraft and I raid, the only reason my guild isn't 16/16 heroic right now is roster issues pushed off our raid start until November 4th. We've made steady, and even rapid progress on every fight since then, even while having to pug 3 slots at some times.

    We dropped Sha of Fear after our first time in there with only three pulls. We're not exactly terribads.

    So yeah, coming in here and swinging a Heroic Raider peen doesn't do much other then get every actual heroic raiding theorycrafter to come in here and bust up your face.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  16. #36
    There is no need to resort to guild bashing and personal shots. Keep it clean.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 04:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by damescool View Post
    not sure if this was pointed to my post, but if it was you miss read what i said in response to someone suggesting a 75 runic power cost to SR, which IMO, is ridiculous. that would leave you runic starved, plus cost the equivalent of almost 4 Frost strikes which is much more in damage than 1 SR, also, your potential RE procs, which would be quite a few with overall averages, specially now the t15 4-set is raising execute time to 45%
    Sorry, i had the tab open and didn't reply until after you did. My response was for Fatalcombat.
    Last edited by Nangz; 2013-02-08 at 11:46 PM.

  17. #37
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    You'd be surprised. Lots of very high-end raiders simply aren't interested in theorycraft. Most fights aren't total DPS races, after all. Most fights have a margin for error, even when you first get there with weak gear. Following instructions, situational awareness, lack of drama, and reliable attendance are much more important to high-end progression than drawing out that last 1-2% of DPS.

    You can make mistakes like delaying for KM or skipping optimal talents like Plague Leech and still be a great asset to your guild. The problem comes when you join forums like this one and think you can contribute to a theorycrafting discussion just because you progressed through heroics, like that alone gives you credibility. It doesn't.
    The inverse is true too. You can be an amazing theory crafter/simcrafted, and know everything about playing a spec perfectly, and not be in a top guild either. Which can make deciding who is right/wrong in an argument tricky.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    The inverse is true too. You can be an amazing theory crafter/simcrafted, and know everything about playing a spec perfectly, and not be in a top guild either. Which can make deciding who is right/wrong in an argument tricky.
    You should be looking at what is right/wrong in an argument, not who.

    Problem solved.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    You should be looking at what is right/wrong in an argument, not who.

    Problem solved.
    Not everyone knows that, nor is it always clear what is right/wrong.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    WRONG!
    Last one would be 1 death / 1 unholy, leaving you with 1 death for the next sr

    2 death, 2 frost, 2 unholy every 12 or so seconds, depending on haste and RE procs
    1 frost every 6 seconds for SR
    1 frost + 1 unholy for obli as often as possible
    Should be 2 SR and 2 obli in 12 seconds, much better than 3 obli
    And no, you wont lose rp by using SR, you just get 12 + 12, rather than 24 with one gcd like you would with oblit
    A rotation doesn't always work out perfectly like this. You can write it down however you want. It won't always play out like that during an encounter. And that's my point that SR is situational. I didn't say I never use it. I said I use it when the time is right. If I have the runes up to Oblit I'm going to Oblit because I want the 24 RP now instead of 12 now and 12 more six seconds later. And yeah, I messed up the last set in my example. It would be 1D / 1U leaving you with a Death.

    Also you shouldn't make false statements saying I get boosted. That's absurd. If you can't make valid arguments without your epeen getting in the way then it isn't worth replying to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    Quoted for emphasis.

    I theorycraft and I raid, the only reason my guild isn't 16/16 heroic right now is roster issues pushed off our raid start until November 4th. We've made steady, and even rapid progress on every fight since then, even while having to pug 3 slots at some times.

    We dropped Sha of Fear after our first time in there with only three pulls. We're not exactly terribads.

    So yeah, coming in here and swinging a Heroic Raider peen doesn't do much other then get every actual heroic raiding theorycrafter to come in here and bust up your face.
    You brought up rankings first. I only said what I did because at this point in the expansion the majority of the better players that put out competitive damage are doing heroic kills each week. This means you're competing for ranks against pugs and casual guilds. Which aren't always challenging. Heroic encounters, however, are challenging to rank on. Also, I never called you bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    You can make mistakes like delaying KM
    Explain to me how it's mistake to delay KM for one global, two at most.

    Say you have a KM proc up and you're saving it for one or two seconds. you auto attack and a second one procs but you miss it because you saved the first one. But you use it on an Oblit and hit 350k.

    Same scenario except you used it instantly on FS and hit 175k. KM procs immediately after that and you FS again for 175k and then your Oblit becomes available. Either way you get the same damage in that scenario.

    Same scenario, you FS for 175k and KM doesn't proc right away. You're out 87k damage if you FS immediately after the first one.

    To the person who was confused as to how it is situational. I use it as a situational ability where I prioritize Oblits > SR. When I have only one Frost or only one Death I use SR. SR is not as good for 2H as it is for DW as someone else mentioned. I am 2H, not DW.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    You should be looking at what is right/wrong in an argument, not who.

    Problem solved.
    ^ This ^

    By the way, just because you post a lot on some forums doesn't make you an expert theorycrafter.
    Last edited by Fatalcombat; 2013-02-09 at 11:41 AM.

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