[Game Design] A possible FIX for WoW's finite endgame

[Cinnamilk]

You say this like a "finite" endgame is a bad thing.
Find a new hobby, read a book, touch grass.
There's plenty to do in the game, and it's nice to do other things once you've had your fill for the season.

[PenguinChan]

I feel like for there to be more 'vets helping newbies' kind of thing you need to make the game harder, more confusing to understand and a challenge to get into. Something that often kills MMORPG's because the audiences it caters to often aren't the same who want to actually have that kind of appeal. Warframe is a complete cock-block of knowledge and design but it works because the community in it is very helpful. The wikipedia pages are life-savers and constantly maintained by the community, and often enough vets in that game are more than happy to see newbies running around.

FFXIV has this mentality to some extent as well - people love seeing sprouts and are way more lenient / helpful to them. Naturally, people are way more sympathetic to people who look like newer players. WoW has this too but it's hidden behind an obscure system and only the mentors can see the murloc heads - which is kinda dumb.

But anyways: This feels like a nonissue-answer to a nonissue problem. Endgames don't need to be infinite, at least the main progression path.

[Big Thanks]

Holy-CRAP, guys! Delves will ignore the holy-trinity and be role-indifferent!
This has now the potential to support one type of longterm endgame, like i suggested in OP

Only needs now a way for a single player to shine/carry the entire group.
and
A helper system
and
Rewards for helpers

Maybe...

[czarek]

I dont get this tbh. Simply to be a legit booster ? No thanks. That idea make more problems and devaluate new commers experience.

[Big Thanks]

I dont get this tbh. Simply to be a legit booster ? No thanks. That idea make more problems and devaluate new commers experience.

Mhm...maybe you are right, i dunno, BUT i personally have a very good experience with "helper-queues" in other games

[Baraden]

I strongly believe there should be an end point in an MMO

In WoW that could be doing your weekly vault activities etc, it's time to switch toons or do something else

The problem with making infinite content that's actually worthwhile, is you get artifact power and people doing 300 maw of souls runs; that is far far worse than the alternative

You should not play one character all of the time, and if you do, you should not play WoW all of the time

[czarek]

I strongly believe there should be an end point in an MMO

In WoW that could be doing your weekly vault activities etc, it's time to switch toons or do something else

The problem with making infinite content that's actually worthwhile, is you get artifact power and people doing 300 maw of souls runs; that is far far worse than the alternative

You should not play one character all of the time, and if you do, you should not play WoW all of the time

Infinite content or infinite progres? Those are diffrent things. Progres has no sense imo while seasons are quite short and game is not designed for it like diablo or poe. Infinite content. Actually WoW has tons of content but most is outdated. MoP remix sounds good idea to engage players with old content with some twist.

[Baraden]

Infinite content or infinite progres? Those are diffrent things. Progres has no sense imo while seasons are quite short and game is not designed for it like diablo or poe. Infinite content. Actually WoW has tons of content but most is outdated. MoP remix sounds good idea to engage players with old content with some twist.

Technically any content is infinite if there's no restrictions on how much you can run it, it's just obviously most people need an actual reason to do said content

I'm talking about progress, there absolutely should be a point each week where you can say, "yeah I'm done with this toon I can leave it and not feel bad"

[LightskyGG]

Finite endgame is a major problem in all MMO's and so far no one managed to "fix" it.
Today's current solution is to simply release more of the same content (aka the themepark method) with a different coat of paint.
When this topic is discussed, the only other possible solutions pitched are "Sandbox" or "procedural generated content".

A finite amount of content isn't necessarily a "bad" thing in games. Do you really want to play Grand Theft Auto 6 for more than the story, a bit of roleplay, and perhaps some open-world exploration? Probably not. You get the game, enjoy some story, play some roleplay with friends, and take the scenic route around town as you explore. After that, you can safely set the game aside and play something else and feel fulfilled.

Content is a bit of a subjective concept in World of Warcraft. For example, to someone in Liquid, they grind a lot in the weeks before a new season (both in and outside of the game), compete for World First, and then some of them set the game aside and play something else. We call this seasonal gaming. This is OK.

I enjoy leveling new characters, and then collecting mounts, pets, toys, achievements, transmog, recipes, etc. There is LOADS of content for me. Finite is so far from my vocabulary when it comes to content in this game. This is me, though. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and that's OK too.

You mention "sandbox" and "procedural generated content". What does that look like in World of Warcraft in your opinion? Understand that we are in a sandbox; all of Azeroth is a sandbox. We can explore and interact with the game world all we like. We can even install addons to change that experience even more. As you mentioned above, Delves solve that problem. To some extent, they will be procedurally generated. In other words, the enemies you defeat, the objectives given to you, etc. won't be the same from one Delve to the next. They're being built as an evergreen system in the game, so they will carry forth into Midnight, The Last Titan, and beyond.

I'm not sure there's a problem to solve here.

You have reached the top of the mountain after endgame. What now? There is nothing left to do.
What if we had a type of content where this player could go to:

-Flex his gear
-Flex his skill
-Teach the newcomers
-All of the above while still having fun (being somewhat of a challenge) with the combat and content mechanics
-Possible rewards for "helper coins" and maybe a "helper queue" system

You can flex your gear and skill by pushing to higher raid difficulties, Mythic keystone levels, or PvP rating. In The War Within and beyond, Delves will solve that problem for open-world-only players. Delves will scale anywhere from a Normal dungeon to a Mythic+5 keystone dungeon and will scale for 1-3 players depending on your party size.

There isn't an in-game platform for veteran players to "teach" new players, that's what Wowhead, Icy Veins, and various YouTube content creators are for. There is the Mentor System in the game, but that's more a glorified Discord text channel built into the game. Mentors can answer questions for new players that need assistance and may not have any friends that adopted them into the game, or the new player doesn't know where to look online for their question(s).

The reward for improving (flexing) is better loot. The reward for helping someone is knowing that you made their life just a little easier with your answer.

Requirements for this to work:

Content without holy-trinity
1 player (higher level) can make the entire difference and ease SOME pressure off the content (but not completely trivial).
Thats all (i think).

------

Thats all, thats "my" idea thing (used in other games but lost in time)
In my opinion the entire MMORPG genre is sleeping on the idea of "Flexing" all your ingame skill and items to a bunch of newcomers (while still having fun at the game).

I think your idea, although not painted in a clear, comprehensible way, is you want more solo (somewhat difficult) content. As you said, Delves will solve that problem.

[babalou1]

You have reached the top of the mountain after endgame. What now? There is nothing left to do.
What if we had a type of content where this player could go to:

-Flex his gear
-Flex his skill
-Teach the newcomers
-All of the above while still having fun (being somewhat of a challenge) with the combat and content mechanics
-Possible rewards for "helper coins" and maybe a "helper queue" system

Problems:

Look, i know this system works. Both flexing and helping newbies is a great feeling.
I've seen it work in other games...but it just doesnt work at all in the current iteration of PvE (dungeons) because of the holy trinity system.

(1)You are not flexing if you decide to help low levels clear a 5-man dungeon.
(2)You are not having fun or demonstrating visual or technical skill by helping lower levels.
(2a)Also not having fun because is not a challenge to you at all.
(3)Also not getting any reward at all.

Your first point in "problems"... Will a big ass glow suffice? How about all other people in your group getting a temp "Peasant" title? I mean, you are wanting to "flex" on lowbies right?

The following points are just sounding like you want to be rewarded for being magnanimous while pretending to be "helpful"

Sounds like you just want to be a booster without pretending your not being a booster