Thread: 5.2 UA Locks

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  1. #1

    5.2 UA Locks

    People that have played ua locks in 5.2 arena not just sitting hitting the dummy for 8 hours, what are your opinions on the class? How big of a difference is the gear scaling and 10% dmg reduction. Also how Is the pressure with the new UA change and the dmg done on dispel? Blood fear viable? Rogues able to lock you down completely?

  2. #2
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    PvP-wise, the spec still has one big problem: The need to channel MG to do the most of its damage. And the change to Blood Fear doesn't help that. Affliction is good. If left alone. And anyone leaving a warlock alone to freecast deserves to get obliterated.

  3. #3
    Affliction is still all about keeping up as much pressure as possible from a million low-hitting dots while controlling key opponents.

    Come 5.2 you will have insane problems with rogues and death knights (as if they havent always been a problem to locks...) so you will rely
    heavily on peeling from teammates and utilizing all your escape-tools.

    The new blood fear is still shit and is extremely easy to counter if the enemy isnt completely retarded.

    All in all with the reverted nerfs and some buffs locks are looking pretty good as a part of a 3s team in 5.2.

    You can still expect to be dominated in other situations though.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProteinShake View Post
    People that have played ua locks in 5.2 arena not just sitting hitting the dummy for 8 hours, what are your opinions on the class? How big of a difference is the gear scaling and 10% dmg reduction. Also how Is the pressure with the new UA change and the dmg done on dispel? Blood fear viable? Rogues able to lock you down completely?
    Was actually wondering the same thing. Me and my arena partners were thinking of doing Holy/Dk/Rogue but I read in some places that while rogues are going to be strong Lock/DK/Holy would be better.
    I understand the lock would probably get trained all game, but are they still going to be in a good spot?

  5. #5
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Was actually wondering the same thing. Me and my arena partners were thinking of doing Holy/Dk/Rogue but I read in some places that while rogues are going to be strong Lock/DK/Holy would be better.
    I understand the lock would probably get trained all game, but are they still going to be in a good spot?
    What you mean with still?
    With the massive buffs to rogues, monks and buffs to other melee, the massive nerf to blood fear and a few rather weak buffs? Don't expect them to be any better then they currently are.
    You may see more affliction locks, but don't be surprised that the overall warlock representation is going to keep dropping.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    What you mean with still?
    With the massive buffs to rogues, monks and buffs to other melee, the massive nerf to blood fear and a few rather weak buffs? Don't expect them to be any better then they currently are.
    You may see more affliction locks, but don't be surprised that the overall warlock representation is going to keep dropping.
    Well I would say warlocks right now are in a fine spot, with the exclusion of UA. UA is getting a pretty huge buff, I wouldn't call it weak. The fact that cleanses now cleanse all debuffs means any sort of cleanse will always hit UA, with UA hitting like a truck and silencing. That's perfect for target-swapping cleaves.

  7. #7
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Personally I think the best caster team next season will be MLS, using an Affliction lock with GoSacc-Imp and Unbound Will - with macros for defensive dispels on their Shaman and Mage. That gives them 3 personal trinkets every 2 minutes (4 with Undead which you obviously should be), 50% more dot damage - so soul swaps will be brutal (one of the two tricks of this comp to getting around MG reliance).

    The comp is practically immune to CC - 10 second defensive dispels from the lock with 4 trinkets every 2 minutes. Trinket, tremor and 8 second defensive dispels on the shaman. Blink, ice blocks, dispel curse, and 2 trinkets on the mage. Meanwhile the comp boasts some of the highest CC and synergy in the game. Lastly, the second trick of getting the affliction damage up to a critical level - is of course the mage peels for the aff lock, just the same way they did for shadow in this season (and all prior seasons).

    I'm likely to actually run MLD myself if I run it (on my lock) - because there aren't enough good rshams on my server, but I think MLS has the real power next season. Alternately if I can find a solid paladin, MLP (My Little Ponies for the name possibly!) could work decent as well, with bops and aura masteries they'd be pretty solid despite the CC DR overlap.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-02-04 at 04:48 AM.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Personally I think the best caster team next season will be MLS, using an Affliction lock with GoSacc-Imp and Unbound Will - with macros for defensive dispels on their Shaman and Mage. That gives them 3 personal trinkets every 2 minutes (4 with Undead which you obviously should be), 50% more dot damage - so soul swaps will be brutal (one of the two tricks of this comp to getting around MG reliance).

    The comp is practically immune to CC - 10 second defensive dispels from the lock with 4 trinkets every 2 minutes. Trinket, tremor and 8 second defensive dispels on the shaman. Blink, ice blocks, dispel curse, and 2 trinkets on the mage. Meanwhile the comp boasts some of the highest CC and synergy in the game. Lastly, the second trick of getting the affliction damage up to a critical level - is of course the mage peels for the aff lock, just the same way they did for shadow in this season (and all prior seasons).

    I'm likely to actually run MLD myself if I run it (on my lock) - because there aren't enough good rshams on my server, but I think MLS has the real power next season. Alternately if I can find a solid paladin, MLP (My Little Ponies for the name possibly!) could work decent as well, with bops and aura masteries they'd be pretty solid despite the CC DR overlap.
    Gotta agree with this 1. But I think i'd play with a paly because of freedom and bop plus more CC than the shaman has (if he can push out) If the mage and warlock is UD you probably won't need tremor as much. I'm leveling a warlock atm im tired of my hunter in arenas. Time for a change, only problem is I hate affi I prefer destro which can work if you and your team can work very well together setting up burst in a deep freeze... INSTAGIBED
    I want to have a child and use it as a pulling tool in dungeons.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    PvP-wise, the spec still has one big problem: The need to channel MG to do the most of its damage. And the change to Blood Fear doesn't help that. Affliction is good. If left alone. And anyone leaving a warlock alone to freecast deserves to get obliterated.
    see i think this is a real shame and highlights what the game needs too - more casting, less interupts/closers. i mean casting something as a caster makes complete sense its just a shame at the moment you need thinks like this to be either a REAL short cast or instant.

    As a thought when UA is dispelled could they not add a component via gloves or something: when UA is dispelled in addition to the dispeller being Silenced you gain immunity to interrupts and Silences for 5 seconds

    -- now this isnt much different from the monk gloves ability but im no expert on locks so this may be too situational.

    Edit: never played a lock so although i know how to kill them i do not know EVERY in and out about them.

  10. #10
    I would not mind casting more on my warlock, but then Blizzard would have to do something about the uptime melee have on warlocks.

  11. #11
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Well I would say warlocks right now are in a fine spot, with the exclusion of UA. UA is getting a pretty huge buff, I wouldn't call it weak. The fact that cleanses now cleanse all debuffs means any sort of cleanse will always hit UA, with UA hitting like a truck and silencing. That's perfect for target-swapping cleaves.
    Well, me and every other multi glad says they ain't. Warlocks are right now in the worst spot they've been since season 1. For arena, we are sharing the bottom of the food chain with rogues and monks right now.

    And UA has very little to do with the state of warlocks right now, and UA is only getting a very small damage buff and a 100% crit, you'll barely notice the difference between UA in 5.2 and UA crits right now.
    It's a buff, but it's not going to fix the main issues, our shitty defensives and our dependency on dark soul / haunt + MG

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Personally I think the best caster team next season will be MLS, using an Affliction lock with GoSacc-Imp and Unbound Will - with macros for defensive dispels on their Shaman and Mage. That gives them 3 personal trinkets every 2 minutes (4 with Undead which you obviously should be), 50% more dot damage - so soul swaps will be brutal (one of the two tricks of this comp to getting around MG reliance).

    The comp is practically immune to CC - 10 second defensive dispels from the lock with 4 trinkets every 2 minutes. Trinket, tremor and 8 second defensive dispels on the shaman. Blink, ice blocks, dispel curse, and 2 trinkets on the mage. Meanwhile the comp boasts some of the highest CC and synergy in the game. Lastly, the second trick of getting the affliction damage up to a critical level - is of course the mage peels for the aff lock, just the same way they did for shadow in this season (and all prior seasons).

    I'm likely to actually run MLD myself if I run it (on my lock) - because there aren't enough good rshams on my server, but I think MLS has the real power next season. Alternately if I can find a solid paladin, MLP (My Little Ponies for the name possibly!) could work decent as well, with bops and aura masteries they'd be pretty solid despite the CC DR overlap.
    Why would you ever use a GoSac'ed imp if you go with Unbound will? Especially when you already play with a mage and a shaman, you won't be needing such a shitty dispel. A blanket silence is so much stronger, you shouldn't even be considering using the imp.

    Also, many affliction warlocks already use GoSac (about 30-40%), with a felhunter since it's a lot more desired then a shitty dispel( Yes, it's really bad), and believe it or not, the current 55% extra damage doesn't make their swaps any good. If you are not channeling MG with haunt up or using dark soul, the damage you do is ignorable.
    Unless you can free cast the whole time and you don't get your haunt dispelled, which isn't going to happen with the buffs to monks, rogues and death knights, which all counter warlocks really hard, you won't do damage. Those classes getting buffed and the massive nerf to blood fear will be the absolute downfall of warlocks, mark those words.

    Honestly, I don't think any castercleaves will do good next season, melee will simply be to strong. And if there will be a strong castercleave, it will be PMS, simply due the fact that it's stronger against melee.
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-02-04 at 06:08 PM.

  12. #12
    Niberion,

    What do you think needs to be done to make UA viable again?

    To me it seems like a viable alternative to MG is needed; significantly buff the damage from dots and minimize the damage from MG, or removing MG and going back to shadow bolt as the main filler. Something in the middle could be a slow added to MG, similar to Mind Flay's slow, which would make it a bit harder for someone we're focusing to get to us: start at max distance, apply dots, start casting MG, move LOS, then you've got a few seconds where you can't be death gripped/shadow stepped or the like while applying damage, and it makes it harder for them to close, since they are also slowed.

    Alternatively they could significantly reduce our damage taken, but keep our pressure low, but I don't think that's the way they want to go. I do think that the healing being changed to a shield will be a pretty significant buff to survivability, but we'll see how it plays out.

    anyways, i'm interested in what you think it would take :-)

  13. #13
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Niberion,

    What do you think needs to be done to make UA viable again?

    To me it seems like a viable alternative to MG is needed; significantly buff the damage from dots and minimize the damage from MG, or removing MG and going back to shadow bolt as the main filler. Something in the middle could be a slow added to MG, similar to Mind Flay's slow, which would make it a bit harder for someone we're focusing to get to us: start at max distance, apply dots, start casting MG, move LOS, then you've got a few seconds where you can't be death gripped/shadow stepped or the like while applying damage, and it makes it harder for them to close, since they are also slowed.

    Alternatively they could significantly reduce our damage taken, but keep our pressure low, but I don't think that's the way they want to go. I do think that the healing being changed to a shield will be a pretty significant buff to survivability, but we'll see how it plays out.

    anyways, i'm interested in what you think it would take :-)
    In order for affliction to be a good spec, we need 2 big changes.

    A first change, I'm not going to spend to many words on now, is that we need a lot better survivability. While our demonic circle and gateway are very powerful tools, it's pretty much the only thing we have. In 5.2 we'll be the 2nd squishiest caster, with only mages being below us, however, unlike us, they are given the tools to deal with that.
    Not only are they very capable of keeping melee away from them, as long as they ain't facing a freedom/dispel spamming paladin, they are also capable of taking a hit due their shields on a short cooldown and their many oh-shit buttons.

    We on the other hand, have 2 real defensive cooldowns, dark regeneration + healthstone combo (It's used together in 99% of the time) and unending resolve. We can count dark bargain as a third, but in 5.2 the majority will likely use sacrificial pact... ( It's about 50-50 right now according to WoG). While strong cooldowns, it's the only thing we really have, and unlike mages, we can't really keep melee away from us. This means melee will have a high uptime on us, and it's there where we're lacking something. We are very squishy, and we really need something extra, so we can either keep melee away from us; like a snare for example, or something so we can survive melee on us easier, in the form of more shielding or more passive damage reduction for example.

    Now, the other change that has to happen, which I think is even more important, is that we have to be a lot less dependent on dark soul and hard casting. When we have dark soul up with dots on everyone, have haunt up and are channeling MG, our damage is insane. However, that's a combination of events that right now are hard to pull off, especially when trying to combine them.

    A first issue is, is that dots are very easy to dispel right now. The buff to UA, it going to make it a bit riskier to dispel, however, the problem with dispelling our dots is that you can do it before the real damage is coming. The damage between dispelling UA on the 5.2 ptr and having an UA crit right now, is extremely small, and people really ain't dying to it. Buffing it even harder is not really an option though, otherwise people are going to stack UA.

    A second issue is that our dots do too little damage when not being supported by MG. The whole change to dots and requiring MG was done to prevent warlocks from pulling insane numbers on multi-target fights in PvE, however, multi-dotting was our main strength prior to MoP. And this is actually a really big problem, since you can't change a lot without revamping the whole spec. If you buff dot damage and nerf MG, multi dotting will go out of control in PvE, and not changing it, is going to keep us weak in PvP.
    Myself, I don't really know how this issue can be fixed, perhaps with a glyph that only for PvP, maybe splitting MG in a PvE part and a PvP part, etc... I don't really know, but something needs to be changing about MG and how our dots work.

    A third thing is haunt. It's a strong spell we really dependent on and we can't just spam it around since it costs soulshards. Now, this problem is a bit related to the first, and that is that it's relatively safe to dispel it as soon as it comes up. It really really sucks when you see one of your best offensive abilities getting dispelled over and over. Now, this spell is related to issue two as well, namely that dots do very little damage without MG. Say you have full dots up, you get haunt up and it ain't getting dispelled, however, you ain't casting MG. If I'm being tickled, and then I get tickled 25% harder, I'm not really going to care. As how to change this, I wouldn't mind a glyph that makes haunt undispellable for say, a 5% reduction.

    A fourth issue, which I've mentioned a few times already I think, is that we depend a lot on hard casting. Due our lack of keeping melee away from us, and due how often we are hardcasting something, we are extremely prone to getting interrupted. Now, getting interrupted once or twice is not that much of a problem, however, when every spell you have is from the same school. Your cc, your damage, your cooldowns, they are all on the same school. Getting interrupted means you can't really do anything. Affliction is pretty much the only spec that has this issue, mages have their arcane school, priests have their holy school, etc... We only have shadow, and that's not to great.
    This issue probably gets fixed by itself as soon as we are a lot less dependent on channeling MG, but I wouldn't mind fear being an arcane spell for example.

    A fifth issue, that needs little explaining, dark soul. You have damage going on everywhere, and suddenly that damage is coming 30% faster for 20 seconds. It's obvious that this brings a ton of pressure when many people are fully dotted, are being effected by haunt and you are casting MG. Without haunt and MG the pressure can be dealt with, without too many problems tho.
    I have no idea how to fix this, since I'm almost certain this is also one of the reasons they ain't buffing dots. All you have to do is popping it, and you see a massive increase in your multi target damage.


    I'm pretty damn tired right now, not really thinking properly, but affliction is going to need a whole revamp to become perfectly viable again. I don't see how they can fix affliction, without either ruining PvE, or by screwing something else up. The current model simply doesn't work for PvP.


    TL,DR. More defensive against melee, less dependent on hard casting MG, dark soul and haunt.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    I'm pretty damn tired right now, not really thinking properly, but affliction is going to need a whole revamp to become perfectly viable again. I don't see how they can fix affliction, without either ruining PvE, or by screwing something else up. The current model simply doesn't work for PvP.
    Fairly well put, and honestly that's the situation with all three of the Warlocks specs. They were redesigned with an eye for PvE, and they do a very good job of presenting three interesting and distinctly different options for PvE, but all three are deeply flawed in PvP.

  15. #15
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    Also, many affliction warlocks already use GoSac (about 30-40%), with a felhunter since it's a lot more desired then a shitty dispel( Yes, it's really bad), and believe it or not, the current 55% extra damage doesn't make their swaps any good. If you are not channeling MG with haunt up or using dark soul, the damage you do is ignorable.
    Unless you can free cast the whole time and you don't get your haunt dispelled, which isn't going to happen with the buffs to monks, rogues and death knights, which all counter warlocks really hard, you won't do damage. Those classes getting buffed and the massive nerf to blood fear will be the absolute downfall of warlocks, mark those words.
    Last I checked (about a week ago) there are 8 rank 1 warlocks so far this season, 0 of them use Blood Fear, 5 of them are Affliction. Blood Fear is a crutch that makes being a beginner warlock easier - it's a good addition as a talent, because it lowers the learning curve on locks - but locks have been casting Fear since Vanilla to great effect. Blood Fear is FAR from necessary, and it deserved a big nerf, because - while it wasn't being used by the top players - it's a CC you don't get a chance to react to with interrupts/cc - melee range instant CC are permitted because the assumption there is that you should get out of melee range (Howl of Terror / Psy Scream / Intimidating Shout).

    Honestly, I don't think any castercleaves will do good next season, melee will simply be to strong. And if there will be a strong castercleave, it will be PMS, simply due the fact that it's stronger against melee.
    MLS / MLD will be stronger versus melee than Shatterplay / God Comp - locks just need a mage/druid peeling for them so they can cast fear/MG - but with that it will be stronger than Shatterplay. Also, the UA buff is minor - the real buffs are the Fel Armor change to 10% damage reduction, and the DI buff to provide 10% more Stamina (which will multiply with GoSacc and wasn't previously accessible to MLS/MLD). The only castery buffs the comp will be missing will be 5% Int and 5% spell haste now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 12:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Fairly well put, and honestly that's the situation with all three of the Warlocks specs. They were redesigned with an eye for PvE, and they do a very good job of presenting three interesting and distinctly different options for PvE, but all three are deeply flawed in PvP.
    True, but their flaws can be overcome with the right comp - that's why I think MLS/MLD are the future of caster comps next season.
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  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire Shibuya's Avatar
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    They are amazing. New blood fear is actually useful now they changed it to horror, which allows you to keep regular fear.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Last I checked (about a week ago) there are 8 rank 1 warlocks so far this season, 0 of them use Blood Fear, 5 of them are Affliction. Blood Fear is a crutch that makes being a beginner warlock easier - it's a good addition as a talent, because it lowers the learning curve on locks - but locks have been casting Fear since Vanilla to great effect.
    Just checked the world top 4 3v3 teams with warlocks in.

    None are rank 1 in their bg.

    2 don't have warlocks in anymore.

    The remaining 2 both use blood fear.

    Where are you getting your information from exactly?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Personally I think the best caster team next season will be MLS, using an Affliction lock with GoSacc-Imp and Unbound Will - with macros for defensive dispels on their Shaman and Mage.
    I agree with this. Both mages and locks are too dangerous to be left alone and melee cleaves will have alot of trouble landing kills on either with the amount of cc and immunity to cc they have. The shaman really would be the easiest thing to kill. MLS has literally always been strong and now a lock can take burning rush (5.2 gives a freedom effect if im not mistaken) if they know they are playing a melee cleave with mage peels they should have no trouble surviving.

    Havent done ptr so cant say too much but dk/rogue/healer will still probably wreck locks no matter what comp they run.

    On a sidenote: How to fix affliction in pvp with a glyph or just a passive change:

    (Minor) Glyph of Dots: Your damage over time effects now deal 35% more damage to players, however your MG now does 50% less damage to players.

    Boom, no effect on pve, less reliance on MG. SO TOUGH
    Last edited by Hand Banana; 2013-02-05 at 05:06 AM.

  19. #19
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Just checked the world top 4 3v3 teams with warlocks in.

    None are rank 1 in their bg.

    2 don't have warlocks in anymore.

    The remaining 2 both use blood fear.

    Where are you getting your information from exactly?
    Here's some locks who are or have been rank 1 this season:

    Limity
    Slipnslide
    Drlocktopus
    Crazy Cyrillic Letters
    Dotalol
    Blukstack
    Xennnum


    Someone a week ago claimed there were no rank 1 locks this season and even with blood fear they were underpowered, so we found some - at the time none of them had blood fear, which shocked even me - but I'm seeing 3/6 of them have it at the moment - so they're obviously swapping talents around, possibly depending on on what they're facing.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-02-05 at 05:19 AM.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    our shitty defensives
    Stopped reading after that, and cheers btw, for speaking for 'every other multi-glad'.

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