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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by stormgust View Post
    Draco you still ignoring probably the most important factor in favor of int vs. spirit: Time. It's not "2 rejuvenations in 150 seconds". It's "1 Rejuvenation after 75 seconds" and "1 rejuvenation another 75 seconds later". That is you're delaying the point of "no heal/no mana" by the duration of those rejuvenations. You have the benefit only after 90% of the fight are over anyway.

    So we have: For burst you already agreed that int is superior.
    For non burst/periodic damage you have time. You can accumulate the extra healing(by the int) to get a significant difference in terms of HP, i.e. not merely 1000 HP/Target. For this matter, you should also calcule the values for SM AoE heal, as well as WG (or SotF+WG), not merely the single target gains. If you want you may also accumulate the int benefits over your entire healing team and compare them to the relative gain in terms of spirit.
    You can go ahead and do that if you feel it's important. But concidering that spirit already beat out all the spells I already put out numbers for assuming a 1:1 conversion, and it is in reality a 1:2 conversion, I'm not sure what the point is. WG has a 9.2% scale factor (550*0.092=50.6 per tick per target? I think, tooltip is unclear. Might just be a 50 overall increase per target), and effloresence has a (550*1.29)*0.12=85*3=255*7=1788 healing gain for 500 int on top of swiftmend's 709.

    And I'm not ignoring anything - the fact is, the more spirit you have, the more you can throw out expensive spells and do bigger heals. The difference in the different spells' power is so huge, that no matter of int could be better than simply choosing the next spell on the ladder if you need more throughput. I don't see what the issue with not seeing the benefit of your playstyle till the last 90% is - no one will care if you're healing targets for 1K more per cast for the first 90% of the fight, if you're OOM for the last 10% and become a burden to the other healers.

    There's 3 fights this tier where I'd prefer int to spirit, and that's tsulong/stone guards/garajal. Two of these bosses are among the easiest of the tier. The last one, as you're a resto druid, you probably won't be allowed to soak up light of day buffs, meaning you might aswell not bother with the extra int, and make sure you keep the raid alive in Night-phases, so the hero-healers with proper cooldowns can shine in the day phases.

    I'm not sure I fully understand the second part of your post, though - can you elaborate what you mean that I can accumulate extra healing to get a significant difference in terms of HP? Do you want like, a "scenario of healing", such as -

    Over 150 seconds you cast 20 healing touch, 20 rejuv, 10 swiftmend, 15 wild growth
    And from there on calculate how much extra healing the 500 int would give? Or am I misunderstanding?

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Over 150 seconds you cast 20 healing touch, 20 rejuv, 10 swiftmend, 15 wild growth
    And from there on calculate how much extra healing the 500 int would give? Or am I misunderstanding?
    Why so many healing touches? i mean really most of the time that spell only sees use with NS. if you want to model the healing done in 150 secs to compare int versus spriit you are better off looking at a continuous 3 stack of LB on the tank, 10 SM (and its aoe ticks), 15 WG, 25 Regrowths, 2 NS+HT, and more like 65-70 rejuvs's (which still leaves some open GCD's in 150 secs btw)

    Just using your example math from previous posts we get:
    10 SM = (1788+709)*10 = 24970
    15 WG = is bout 50 per tick*8*6*15 = 36432
    25 RG's = 567*25 = 14175 (which should likely be double since it nearly always crits but ill skip that for now)
    2 NS HT = (1023*1.5)*2 = 3069
    65 Rejuv gets 39.2% per tick, 5 ticks is 196%, so 550 sp is 1078 per RJ = 1078*65= 70070
    and 150 ticks of LB wich is 5.7% per tick so 550 sp is 31.35 = 150*31.35 = 4702

    Total 153,418 extra healing... and this is quick and dirty math, so who knows how accurate that is. All the LB, WG, and SM ticks are a lot more chances for crit to double the strength of the int bonus as well. (which is a 2.06 multiplier if using the 3% bigger crit meta)

    Point is, its not nearly as far behind the 2 extra rejuvs from spirit as you made it sound, which using your numbers were around 178,500 more healing. Might be better to pull an actual log and go do all the math to see the difference. In the end personal preference, playstyle and how your healing team and raid works is what will make the biggest differences of what is best for you. In a 1-1 int versus spirit (like food or flask), int wins hands down. when its 2/1.5-1 like for gems, gear budget etc, its far more of a toss up based on a lot of factors.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-02-18 at 03:45 PM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by felis View Post
    Please please please stop telling people they have the wrong amount of spirit.
    For sure if they link logs tell them they have thier spell selection wrong.
    Tell them they have their other stats wrong.
    But you are not in their raid group
    Yuu don't know their healing partners.
    You don't know how much people stand in fire.
    You don't know how good their tanks are.
    The rule for spirit is (assuming you have good spell selection which is a big assumtion)
    If you never get close to oom you have too much.
    If you constantly run oom before the end of fights you have not enough.
    As you get better you will find u can cope with less spirit.
    As your raid get better you will need less spirit.
    When stuff goes wrong you might wish you had a bit more spirit.
    Thought I would just quote this guy again because he has it right. Math doesn't really account for everything because fights rarely play out to formulaic designs. Above all else, playstyle is what matters.

    Personally I run with over 13k Spirit in 25-man heroics. This is because I heal aggressively and prioritize constant casting. 13k spirit on someone with a more conservative playstyle would be largely wasted. Use the above quote as a rule of thumb and disregard what other people tell you is better, because people play differently and what works for them may not work for you.

    Don't forget that Tree of Life is an excellent mana cd, while Soul of the Forest is better throughput. If you're struggling for mana you'll last longer simply from speccing Incarnation.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Why so many healing touches? i mean really most of the time that spell only sees use with NS. if you want to model the healing done in 150 secs to compare int versus spriit you are better off looking at a continuous 3 stack of LB on the tank, 10 SM (and its aoe ticks), 15 WG, 25 Regrowths, 2 NS+HT, and more like 65-70 rejuvs's (which still leaves some open GCD's in 150 secs btw)

    Just using your example math from previous posts we get:
    10 SM = (1788+709)*10 = 24970
    15 WG = 1100*15 = 16500
    25 RG's = 567*25 = 14175 (which should likely be double since it nearly always crits)
    2 NS HT = (1023*1.5)*2 = 3069
    65 Rejuv gets 39.2% per tick, 5 ticks is 196%, so 550 sp is 1078 per RJ = 1078*65= 70070
    and 150 ticks of LB wich is 5.7% per tick so 550 sp is 31.35 = 150*31.35 = 4702

    Total 132,856 extra healing... and this is quick and dirty math, so who knows how accurate that is. All the LB, WG, and SM ticks are a lot more chances for crit to double the strength of the int bonus as well.

    Point is, its not nearly as far behind the 2 extra rejuvs from spirit as you made it sound, which using your numbers were around 178,500 more healing. Might be better to pull an actual log and go do all the math to see the difference. In the end personal preference, playstyle and how your healing team and raid works is what will make the biggest differences of what is best for you. In a 1-1 int versus spirit (like food or flask), int wins hands down. when its 2/1.5-1 like for gems, gear budget etc, its far more of a toss up based on a lot of factors.

    The amount of spells weren't ment to mean anything Keiyra. It was literally a question if thats what he wanted done. Not an example of what spells you'd use over 150 seconds (only 2 minutes or so would be filled out with the above).
    In any case, there's no way you're able to get away with using the above spell priority. 65 Rejuvs alone is 565K mana. 15 Wild growths, 206K. 10 Swiftmends 51K. Total of 822K And thats working off of the assumption that all the RG's are clearcasting procs.
    Concidering our resto druid, who's pretty good, on a 5 min 43 sec (343 seconds) kill of Garalon (where rejuv would see the most usage of all fights) gains 120K mana from innervate, 45K from a potion of focus, and 33K from a hymn of hope, thats ~200K mana. Needless to say, if you were to keep your choise of spells up for the entire fight, we're looking at roughly 1.7-1.8M mana needed. So a combat regen of about 22K.
    My combat regen with 10.5K spirit is 12K, he has 10.6k spirit so we seem pretty close. Procs and mana tides would have to make another 10K combat regen. It just seems really, really unlikely.

    Here's one of the top resto druids on garalon's log:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2154&e=2496

    Spell usage -
    ~90 rejuvs.
    34 WG if used on CD.
    22 Swiftmend if used on CD.
    24 Regrowth.
    5 Healing touch.
    3 Nourish.
    535 ticks of lifebloom.

    Basicly, your 65 rejuv and 25 RG figure seems *way* out of line. Rest of the numbers seem allright.

  5. #65
    I got 10219 spirit before flask/foodbuffs, how would you set this up boss-specific MSV HC running alongside a disc-priest? (numbers are health-thresholds)

    imgur.com/2Tyig75

  6. #66
    I have 490 ilvl. I feel it's best to go for max spirit while keeping socket bonuses. I'm at around 12k spirit and doing 70-75k hps on a garalon kill (druids shine there)

  7. #67
    @Drac

    I'm just trolling you regarding Spirit...but you must understand that some people like more spirit, and some doesn't due to the fact that they have already imprint the "logic" of Int > Mastery > Spirit. There is no point of telling others they should need x amount of spirit so that they can gain y amount of cast in N amount of time. When people start oom'ing in much harder bosses, they will start thinking of Spirit as their buddy. I always like more mana (and i'm lazy to reforge as well) rather than having nothing to spam.


    Howevere, let me put it this way. The longer the fight is, higher spirit is always an advantage.

  8. #68
    Blademaster Automaticc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valorous View Post
    I imagine that you'll get the 'drop innervate early and keep it on cooldown' from most people until he learns to manage better. It's likely similar to priests with Mindbender...which is where I have experience. I don't socket much spirit and I do well, though the cooldown is much shorter.

    Really, this expansion is about mana management. If he/she's doing the same thing as in Cataclysm, then all the manas will go out the window.
    It really is. I mean, I know that I play a dps class but In our raid group mana regen management is being called out in mumble whether its Hymn, Mana Tide or an Innervate. I guess it boils down to good communication and coordination among the classes who do provide mana regen and the healers. Going the spirit route can't hurt either imo.

  9. #69
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    You also aren't taking into account Int isn't 1:1, it's 1:1.169, or the fact that is you consider a lot of the int going to overheal but not the extra RJs.


    If you actually look, in practice, at you healing an encounter with 12k spi and lower int/mastery vs 9k spi(just an example) and 3k more throughput stats you aren't going to see a significant difference either way probably. It's going to depend on the encounter, RNG, your other healers, along with 500 other variables.

    Not 'every top druid' is stacking Spi, not 'every top druid' is not stacking spi. Besides that fact that these are guilds that have had these HMs down for months and run with alts and/or a few healers as possible now, there is no way to math out, in a realistic live situation, which is better.

    You also have to take into account what the gear is like on these people. People in LFR and reg gear trying to do harder HM encounters probably aren't going to see a benefit stacking Spi. Their heals will be way too weak with a lack of stats to support their regen. They can throw as many RJs out as they want, they still wont see a healing increase. Once you are in full HM gear and the rest of your raid is too, and the small bursts of healing hots put out between strong absorbs and others spike heals really matter.


    So, telling everyone there is a black and white to stats is misleading and incorrect. Healing hasn't worked that way in a long time. Telling someone 'stacking spi is stupid' is also incorrect, for them it may be the best way to maximize their throughput.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    Irzerg, the only way to find out is to try it, but if I remember previous posts from yourself you are finishing fights on high mana as it is before you look toincrease the amount of mana that you finish a fight with it might be an idea to look to spend that first.


    I don't think it's nice to teach me how to use my mana, esp if you are trying to twist what i say...Try not be ignorant before you are commenting on something i/or others said...Trying so hard to prove yourself right, and consider other people's healing is wrong? hmmm...I might not be the best healer to always score top 100 ranked in WOL,but please, sif it matters at all when you kill everything and no one dies in raid...i reasoned on why i have mana left for "oh shit" situation, and that is for all Heroic raid content, if you need some reminder...One more thing, Min/Max stats in terms of healing means nothing if your main source of mana regen is dependent on others.

  11. #71
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    This topic has run it's course and nothing additional productive is being added. Closing thread.

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