Thread: Envenom Up Time

  1. #1

    Envenom Up Time

    Just quick question concerning Envenom up time. I realize it will very depending on fight mechanics, but on a "Patchwork" style fight what sort of up time would be considered optimal 45%-50%?
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  2. #2
    Higher than that. 60+ should be do-able on a true patchwerk (Not that there are any right now unless you dont go downstairs on garajal)

    For most fights aim for 50
    Last edited by poptya; 2013-02-14 at 09:38 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticktac View Post
    Just quick question concerning Envenom up time. I realize it will very depending on fight mechanics, but on a "Patchwork" style fight what sort of up time would be considered optimal 45%-50%?
    This value increases with haste. SimulationCraft or the engine from ShadowCraft should be able to tell you what your ideal envenom uptime is in your gear. May also vary with expertise values, but I'm not sure on that point. Patchwerk really doesn't exist this tier at all, so your major focus should just be maximizing the uptime and minimizing clipping the buff.

  4. #4
    Realistically speaking, you'll find 50%~ to be a very solid number. It's very fight/mechanic dependent, so it's hard to say.
    - If you're in a rather static fight, you should generally be in the upper 50's.
    - If you're in a very dynamic fight, you'll probably end up being somewhere in the lower 50's or possibly even in the 40's.

    Good examples would be Feng and Will. Feng is a fight in which you're allowed to stick to the boss and nuke his ass off until he dies(minor aoe phase on HC, but nonetheless). While Will constantly forces you to swap to fast dying targets, giving you a hard time to get any Envenom's up.

    It goes either way. Being below 50% doesn't necessarily mean you're bad, it might simply be an unfriendly fight.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    This value increases with haste. SimulationCraft or the engine from ShadowCraft should be able to tell you what your ideal envenom uptime is in your gear. May also vary with expertise values, but I'm not sure on that point. Patchwerk really doesn't exist this tier at all, so your major focus should just be maximizing the uptime and minimizing clipping the buff.
    I would imagine envenom uptime will scale inversely with expertise to a small extent due to how the buff is applied but CP's not spent allowing for more envenom usage. This would be an absolutely tiny increase IMO though, as is evidenced by the very small difference in not capping expertise versus capping it in sims.

    That being said however, it appears as though my envenom uptime is horrendous and I'm not sure why that is. In the heroic feng parse this week I'm within 5% of my patchwerk simming however my uptime is only 51%?!? Anyone have suggestions pertaining to what I may be doing wrong here? I would love to squeeze out another 5-10k per fight. Does envenom uptime scale better with haste or with crit for more combo point generation? I've been forcing my reforge stats to go haste>crit due to how close they are in weight and because at this time I use mostly the same gear for combat fights with a weapon swap.

    Would have linked parse but it appears as though I'm below the posting threshold to do so.

  6. #6
    Had a random thought just now about Envenom.
    I've been playing my warlock a lot recently, and the reason Aff warlocks don't take Haste is because Mastery is significantly more effective (and the Haste caps are terribly difficult to hit unless your average ilvl is above 490 and you have the 4P).
    Is that the same case for Rogues?

    What I mean is, is the reason Crit becomes more valuable than Haste because we can't fit 3 moves into a single Envenom (consistently) yet, or is there something about Crit that I'm missing other than Seal Fate being a good help for Envenom uptime?
    Follow-up to that, which is more significant: Envenom uptime, or fitting more moves into a 5-6 second Envenom buff?
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  7. #7
    Grunt Triscone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Had a random thought just now about Envenom.
    I've been playing my warlock a lot recently, and the reason Aff warlocks don't take Haste is because Mastery is significantly more effective (and the Haste caps are terribly difficult to hit unless your average ilvl is above 490 and you have the 4P).
    Is that the same case for Rogues?

    What I mean is, is the reason Crit becomes more valuable than Haste because we can't fit 3 moves into a single Envenom (consistently) yet, or is there something about Crit that I'm missing other than Seal Fate being a good help for Envenom uptime?
    Follow-up to that, which is more significant: Envenom uptime, or fitting more moves into a 5-6 second Envenom buff?
    Someone would need to check my math and mechanics understanding, but as far as envenom uptime goes, envenom is controlled by cp generation.

    1% increased haste is ~1% increased cp generators through a 1% energy regen gain.
    Crit will gain us a cp everytime we crit an ability so 1% increase to crit rate would also increase our cp generation by 1%.


    The precious math is wrong, it's more complex than that, current crit rate affects the value of haste through seal fate and the reverse is true also. The conclusion is the same however. Each of them will raise the envenom uptime roughly the same given correct equalization of the 2.

    As far as cp generation, and subsequent envenom uptime, they should be roughly equal. Sims place them very close to one another with them flip flopping depending on current gear situations. There really is very little difference between the 2 and it all depends on where the other one is at.

    As far as your last question, I'm struggling with this conceptually as well, but I think fitting 3 Muts into an envenom buff does not decrease your uptime at all. You gained those CPS to go toward your next envenom buff or the one after that. It would only lead to a lower downtime in a situation where you wasted a CP through capping out the anticipation buffer. Energy regen is pretty rng but you're gonna reach the minimum amount of cp and energy to put up the next envenom at roughly the same time regardless of if you get 3 into an envenom or not.
    Last edited by Triscone; 2013-02-16 at 12:16 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    -too long to quote-
    1) (off-topic) the talk about mastery > haste is greatly overrated for affliction. See the warlock stickied affliction guide commentary, and "current state of theorycrafting" threads in the warlock forum (you can scroll back through my posts if you want).
    2) No, we depend MUCH more on haste for auto-attack speed and total energy regen than we do for "fitting" mutilates into envenoms. An extra mut per envenom is what, .3 DP procs per envenom (15%, 2 chances to proc per mutilate)? Uptime isn't increased at all, much the same way that warlocks maintain the same dot uptimes regardless of haste status.

    On your followup question: envenom uptime, but you should never EVER have to pick between them. The value of 1 mutilate under envenom (as opposed to outside of it) is the same value as pushing 2 auto-attacks (that hit) into the same window of envenom. Assuming you're not mapping envenom around your swing timer for each dagger, managing mut is just easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triscone View Post
    -too long to quote-
    You're welcome to go ahead and post your log with spaces inserted or dot in place of ., the post count is a spam control method. Alternatively, post your log name, rogue name, and server, so we can hunt down and post a link to your logs.

    On the subject - yes, and your analysis of CP generation is better than what I mentioned earlier, but neither explains the discrepancy from shadowcraft to patchwerk in practice; we really need to see logs to say anything "useful" on the subject.

    Sorry to both for not quoting relevant sections, but I didn't want to "wall of text" this.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Had a random thought just now about Envenom.
    I've been playing my warlock a lot recently, and the reason Aff warlocks don't take Haste is because Mastery is significantly more effective (and the Haste caps are terribly difficult to hit unless your average ilvl is above 490 and you have the 4P).
    Is that the same case for Rogues?

    What I mean is, is the reason Crit becomes more valuable than Haste because we can't fit 3 moves into a single Envenom (consistently) yet, or is there something about Crit that I'm missing other than Seal Fate being a good help for Envenom uptime?
    Follow-up to that, which is more significant: Envenom uptime, or fitting more moves into a 5-6 second Envenom buff?
    I think it's more about CP generation; at least with current gear (around 500ilvl) we cannot get 3 mutilates into a single envenom buff (maye 3 moves if blindside procs).

    With low lvl gear we also have low expertise - hence a crit is more valuable since more crits = more CP generation and less GCDs spent on multiate. But when you get more gear you also get a lot more exp (al least in current content) hence you're hitting much more with mutilates; probably the more consistent damage overlaps the additional CP gained and haste becomes better because we can actually connect more mutilates.

    Haste imho is not that effective because with Envenom buff we already have a very very high chance to proc poisons + we have SnD on; hence mastery affects all poison procs, while haste just adds some of them during all the fight.

  10. #10
    Carp: I don't think the number of combo builders you fit in the envenom buff is relevant. You can get mut 3 times during a 5-pt envenom buff at 10% haste (if pooling to 100)--and that's without any VW procs during. Average case is that you can mut 3 times in a 4-point envenom pooling to 100, at no haste. It only takes 29.2% crit to get a median of 5 CP in 2 mutilates. Anticipation is nothing more than a buffer to minimize envenom buff clipping. There's no reason to mut at 5 combo points unless envenom buff is still up and there is a threat of energy capping. (unless, of course, you want to pool CP using anticipation prior to vendetta).
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-02-18 at 12:37 AM.

  11. #11
    Carp: Or with anticipation you can clip the second envenom into the first one providing a 7 second buff, where its feasible to get 3 muts in (think a normal envenom is possible still)

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