Thread: 5.2 soj pvp

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  1. #141
    So, right now im a bit confused, now SoJ doesnt deal damage per hit and, in exchange, "buffs" TV damage while you stack a debuff on a target? How can this "fix" our burst/sustained damage? :/

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoator View Post
    So, right now im a bit confused, now SoJ doesnt deal damage per hit and, in exchange, "buffs" TV damage while you stack a debuff on a target? How can this "fix" our burst/sustained damage? :/
    it doesn't, that's the problem with half arsed band aid fixes.

    only thing this new "buff" is going to cause is drama when the stars allign and we have 5 stacks with cooldows up.

  3. #143
    To make it about 100% more useful for PvP, they should just give Justice a stacking low percentage snare. Maybe 10% snare per application of Justice. You could probably add in a small, maybe 10% weapon damage hit per application to make up for the loss of sustained damage from Truth and all the problems with using the seal go away.

    To address horrible CC, Blinding Light should be on target instead of on the Paladin, where we throw the shield, causing a Cone effect CC to the target area A LA Blackhorns shockwave from Dragon Soul. This would make it a much more skill based and useful CC for Ret with a counter so it isn't ridiculous for Holy (moving behind negates the CC).

    And off the top of my head, Ret could use its own aura. Redesign Retribution Aura as an AoE cool down for 6 seconds that reduces damage taken by 40% while in the area, and reflects this damage to the attacker as "Retribution", an 8 second DoT, 4 ticks so people don't GiB themselves and whine. 3 minute cool down.

    Voila!! A useful PvP seal, more group utility and better CC.

    Then maybe if they cut AW to 10% for 30 seconds and buff 2H damage by 5%, we'd probably resemble a competitive spec.
    Last edited by Handsylton; 2013-02-13 at 03:53 PM.

  4. #144
    Oh great then, we lose the "snare" (i normally use it on flag wearers with speed increases and in SotA for the Demolisers), the damage and we are forced to switch to BoG if we want a slow effect, and, in exchange we get higher TV numbers, something that im still asking to myself how fixes our low sustained damage...

    I really would like to know in what they are thinking when they decide those changes, because right now i see a better solution buffing Censure than this crap :s

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoator View Post
    Oh great then, we lose the "snare" (i normally use it on flag wearers with speed increases and in SotA for the Demolisers), the damage and we are forced to switch to BoG if we want a slow effect, and, in exchange we get higher TV numbers, something that im still asking to myself how fixes our low sustained damage...

    I really would like to know in what they are thinking when they decide those changes, because right now i see a better solution buffing Censure than this crap :s
    The term "sustained damage" is actually just a misnomer in this case. The problem is pressure between cool downs. With this change, our TV will basically turn into a moderate burst with a short cool down.

    However, I think we will hit WAY too hard under full cool downs and basically start gibbing people. We need the top end of our burst cut, with a buff to 2H weapon damage to overall increase true sustained. Our top end would be a little lower, with better pressure outside cool downs, which is what's needed.

  6. #146
    Yeah the term "sustained" has come to be used in a very confusing way lately. Ret never had bad sustained damage, the problem is that Ret has no burst between cooldowns, so our gradual damage can just be outhealed too easily.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Yeah the term "sustained" has come to be used in a very confusing way lately. Ret never had bad sustained damage, the problem is that Ret has no burst between cooldowns, so our gradual damage can just be outhealed too easily.
    The best change IMO would be a three step process, and not difficult changes.

    1) Avenging Wrath - change it to 10% damage over 30 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown. With this one change, they could justify raising baseline damage.

    2) Guardian - Change it to an offense/defense ability. Pop it, and you embody the Light for 8 seconds, increasing damage and healing by 10%, and reducing damage taken by 20%. This change would give us two stackable cooldowns for burst similar to Avenging Wrath on its own now, but for a shorter duration. It would also help with our survivability.

    3) Increase CS damage by 5%, and 2H damage by 5%
    Between these two moderate buffs, our sustained and burst would raise slightly. Between this and tempering of our cooldowns, our burst would go down slightly, and our pressure outside cool downs would go up significantly.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoator View Post
    So, right now im a bit confused, now SoJ doesnt deal damage per hit and, in exchange, "buffs" TV damage while you stack a debuff on a target? How can this "fix" our burst/sustained damage? :/
    This change to Seal of Justice will give us similar burst to Dk's killing machine proc's on Obliterate. However, the main difference here is that the Seal of Justice stacks will not be Rng (which is a good thing).

    Even without 5 stacks Templar's Verdict will hit much harder than it does on live. For example, If you have 3 stacks and use Tv that is 75% more damage as Holy damage. Meaning you just hit for 350% damage (its actually more than this because it was holy damage and inquisition will buff it).

    I think it's safe to say that this change will give us the burst we need outside of Cd's.

  9. #149
    Any gladiator rets in this discussion? Hell anybody above 2.4? 2.2? No offense but all I see is 1500 rated people, and they're clueless.

    Infracted. No need for rating bashing, and anyone is free to contribute constructively to a discussion. ~Fhi
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-02-13 at 11:04 PM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    Any gladiator rets in this discussion? Hell anybody above 2.4? 2.2? No offense but all I see is 1500 rated people, and they're clueless.
    Oh that's interesting, I didn't know that only opinions of people above 2200 rating were considered valid, and the ability to come up with good ideas were limited to gladiators. Thank you very much for this insight.

    Anyways, I don't think Ret is really THAT far off from being competitive. One or two minor changes to tone burst while raising pressure outside cooldowns, a minor improvement to CC and one group utility and we would MOST LIKELY be a very competitive spec.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Handsylton View Post
    Oh that's interesting, I didn't know that only opinions of people above 2200 rating were considered valid, and the ability to come up with good ideas were limited to gladiators. Thank you very much for this insight.

    Anyways, I don't think Ret is really THAT far off from being competitive. One or two minor changes to tone burst while raising pressure outside cooldowns, a minor improvement to CC and one group utility and we would MOST LIKELY be a very competitive spec.
    More CC and utility? Really? I remember when "all ret needs is an interrupt!".

    Then again most Ret players are pretty terrible and treat the spec as a class of its own, and spout constant nonesense.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I think it's safe to say that this change will give us the burst we need outside of Cd's.
    You are so naive.

    TV even with 5 stacks is no-where near Obliterate KM considering that's a 100% chance for a strike that does well over 400% weapon damage to crit.

    Paladins have a notoriously low crit chance, not to mention the seal and TV are two separate attacks so one could crit without the other.

    The damage is more like a standard Oblit when @ 5, and still much weaker when under that.

    This change doesn't equate to burst at all because it's too small, frequent and predictable UNLIKE a string of KM procs or a Warrior/Rogue saving a whole resource bar to unload. It's merely 30-something K damage added to your TV. In the same timeframe you'd have gotten about that much damage from Truth anyways, even moreso if you're not on target the whole time. This is a buff to CD burst and that's all it is.

    Any gladiator rets in this discussion? Hell anybody above 2.4? 2.2? No offense but all I see is 1500 rated people, and they're clueless.
    Just curious but do you yourself have a gladiator Ret Paladin in this season? I don't see any armory links or mention of you actually playing a Paladin in your recent posts, plenty of Warrior stuff though and jumping in just about every class forum to tell people how bad they are.

    I hear you have to be a gladiator to apply simple maths and work out how much damage SoJ is likely to do!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 09:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    More CC and utility? Really? I remember when "all ret needs is an interrupt!".

    Then again most Ret players are pretty terrible and treat the spec as a class of its own, and spout constant nonesense.
    If you weren't so blinkered you'd know why people are asking for better CC; when we were asking for an interrupt we had both Imp. HoJ and Repentence. Now we have an interrupt but have to choose between Imp. HoJ, Repent or a snare. Blinding Light is awkward to use, doesn't last long, breaks instantly from damage, has a tiny range AND a 2minute cooldown. It's like a shite version of Intimidating Shout.

    Also almost every other class has had their CC improved or streamlined, and been given solid party/raid utilities and buffs (such as Warrior banners) whereas most of the stuff Ret had as "unique" and in-accessible to Holy during Cata are now talents but nothing was put in place of those 7 orso baseline Ret skills. The problem is that Holy can now potentially do everything a Ret can do and free up that DD spot for someone with better damage and a bigger offensive arsenal.

    Infracted. No need for rating/armory bashing. ~Fhi
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-02-13 at 11:02 PM.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    More CC and utility? Really? I remember when "all ret needs is an interrupt!".

    Then again most Ret players are pretty terrible and treat the spec as a class of its own, and spout constant nonesense.
    Actually, one of the biggest problems is balancing talents between a tanking, healing and DPS spec. Its very difficult to buff a talent for Ret survivability without making Prot OP, or to buff Ret healing through talents without making Holy OP. That's one of the biggest challenges. So yes, you almost HAVE to treat Ret as a class among itself because we are basically "a man on an island" as they say.

    And abilities shared between specs are also problematic, such as Blinding Shield. This would be an amazing utility CC, if it weren't for Holy having way too much control if its too good for Ret, who doesn't get the same benefits. The only reasonable peel we have is FoJ. But we lose a snare, and an inaccessible CC in Repentance to get it. The best way to handle a situation like this is to create a skill capped Holy Shield. Make it an AoE cone Blind where we throw a shield the direction we are facing that Blinds all targets in a 30 yard range, with an 8 yard wide AoE. This way, instead of being a no brainer escape tool for Holy, it can be an instant cast skill peel. Can Holy still use it? Sure, but its not nearly as powerful as an escape tool for them, so this is a workable tradeoff for both specs.

    All shared talents and abilities need this kind of scrutiny when balancing, and that's the biggest problem.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    Any gladiator rets in this discussion? Hell anybody above 2.4? 2.2? No offense but all I see is 1500 rated people, and they're clueless.
    Link your armory, if you want to make this discussion about rating. Either way, none of us care. It's OBVIOUS at EVERY level of play that Ret is a shit spec. Since switching to Holy and Feral, it is laughable to see Ret paladins in arena. Half the time I can heal through a Ret paladin with just Holy Shocks, meanwhile DK's and warriors do incredible burst, even without CD's.

  15. #155
    Oh and while I was responding, I came up with s 1,000,000% better implementation for SoJ that solves damage, survivability and a nice quality of life change. Make Justice stack on the Paladin to 8 stacks, and make it increase the power of your next HP consuming ability by 10% per stack. All of a sudden WoG is a worthy heal. TV will deal 495% weapon damage, and Inquisition would have a much longer duration. Lower the stack timer to 8 seconds so we can't sit on it too long and its at least counterable. Now, tune AW down to 10% increased damage on a 2 minute cooldown.

    Holy shit Batman, is Ret all of a sudden a skill based spec about knowing when to spend your two resources on what at the right time? I think it is.
    Last edited by Handsylton; 2013-02-13 at 10:27 PM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    More CC and utility? Really? I remember when "all ret needs is an interrupt!".

    Then again most Ret players are pretty terrible and treat the spec as a class of its own, and spout constant nonesense.
    I just want to add that that was two expansions ago.

    Why don't you go and look at wotlk and see how many spells were in your spell book. Its shocking how many abilities have been added to this game in-between wotlk and MoP.

    Yes we needed an interrupt back in wotlk because our CC was reasonable and utility was pretty good in comparison to other melee specs.
    If you look now, our cc is almost non-existent with the removal of repentance + FoJ or snare choice compared to every other class or even melee spec (personally I'd prefer they removed CC from everyone else but since its blizzard that just wont happen).

    And then utility...what utility? Holy has all of it now. Ret needs unique utility or will never be able to get spots in RBGs.
    Last edited by Palatinus; 2013-02-13 at 10:34 PM.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    More CC and utility? Really? I remember when "all ret needs is an interrupt!".

    Then again most Ret players are pretty terrible and treat the spec as a class of its own, and spout constant nonesense.
    Talk about spouting nonsense...I would say more but you're obviously some post-and-run moron who barely ever reads the paladin forums and has no clue about the current state of the spec or the game... so you probably won't even read any of the responses to your idiotic post... then again you didn't even say anything that makes any sense, other than aim hateful insults at the Ret community, so there isn't much to critique.

    Infracted. ~Fhi
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-02-13 at 11:00 PM.

  18. #158
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    Okay, that's enough.

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