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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I don't see the rogue class mentioned.

    As for class revamp, it's not that we don't have enough buttons or such, and we're truly entertaining in PvP. But still in PvE we're so dumbed down that all our three specs play just the same (while in PvP everyone plays only one spec because of effectiveness).

    We need a revamp. Assa and Combat need better PvP tools and reliability, and in general for PvE rotations need to be reworked a lot. SnD is a boring mechanic, but it's the baseline to do any good performance for every spec. Same as Rupture.
    Thread title.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Thread title.
    ...No, I'm pretty sure he made his point, which was "Rogues have nothing to do with Demon Hunters". The other thing about the thread was also "Should Rogues just turn into Demon Hunters?", which is what he talked about in the second half.
    Nice try, troll.
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  3. #23
    Stood in the Fire Static Transit's Avatar
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    The question of whether rogues have anything to do with Demon Hunters all boils down to interpretation. Specifically, what KIND of Demon Hunter? I'd assume we're talking about the Demon Hunter class from WCIII? In that case, warlocks have gotten all their abilities. But do note that the DK class was kinda different from the DK in WCIII. All of the WCIII DK abilities went into Unholy, but Frost and Blood specs were entirely new. So who knows. I don't see Demon Hunters happening though.

    Murmuur - Kil'Jaeden-US - <Gravity> - Survival Hunter

  4. #24
    Being the least popular class doesn't mean no one plays it. It also doesn't mean that all rogues would WANT to "turn into demon hunters".

    Given the work involved in dropping a new class, I would assume demon hunter would have the same level of special as DKs or monks.


    The problem with demon hunter is simple: it's a very specific kit that has mostly been eaten already. Once meta went to locks (complete with the shoom shoom ranged autoattack that just went away for some reason) it was obvious that the demon hunter class would never be realized without strong redesigning. It COULD work in a demon themed expac, but they would need a decent idea for resources (interesting on par with DK runes, nothing copied like the monk's system), and a strong thematic demon tie in. Given the warlock's class's already tight tie to demons, I just don't buy it as all that likely.

  5. #25
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    ...No, I'm pretty sure he made his point, which was "Rogues have nothing to do with Demon Hunters". The other thing about the thread was also "Should Rogues just turn into Demon Hunters?", which is what he talked about in the second half.
    Nice try, troll.
    I totally agree that Rogues have nothing to do with Demon Hunters. But the thread title suggest that there's some connection, or else turning a Rogue character into a Demon Hunter would just be completely arbitrary.

    And a lot of people always compare the DH to the Rogue.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I totally agree that Rogues have nothing to do with Demon Hunters. But the thread title suggest that there's some connection, or else turning a Rogue character into a Demon Hunter would just be completely arbitrary.

    And a lot of people always compare the DH to the Rogue.
    I would actually make the case that of the WoW classes, rogue is probably closest to Demon Hunter. Everyone remembers the Demon Hunter in demon form, but that was his ultimate. Mostly his game play was running into things at a normal pace and meleeing them. His passive defense, evasion, is one of only two "hero class" abilities that a rogue has (and a rogue has it much cooler as a powerful cooldown- the demon hunter had it more as a passive survival trick). If you wanted to play a Demon Hunter in WoW, your options are really rogue and warrior- it's only recently that you would consider warlock, and only because of the extra and interesting tools that Demonology has to play with.

    Still, that's a "best fit" case. It's only because a lot of us really loved Demon Hunters and were surprised that WoW had Everquest classes instead of Warcraft classes.

  7. #27
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I would actually make the case that of the WoW classes, rogue is probably closest to Demon Hunter. Everyone remembers the Demon Hunter in demon form, but that was his ultimate. Mostly his game play was running into things at a normal pace and meleeing them. His passive defense, evasion, is one of only two "hero class" abilities that a rogue has (and a rogue has it much cooler as a powerful cooldown- the demon hunter had it more as a passive survival trick). If you wanted to play a Demon Hunter in WoW, your options are really rogue and warrior- it's only recently that you would consider warlock, and only because of the extra and interesting tools that Demonology has to play with.

    Still, that's a "best fit" case. It's only because a lot of us really loved Demon Hunters and were surprised that WoW had Everquest classes instead of Warcraft classes.
    So you got melee and evasion. Anything else that the DH has in common with the Rogue? You're even comparing the Warrior to the DH? Why just because it's a melee class?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I don't see the rogue class mentioned.

    As for class revamp, it's not that we don't have enough buttons or such, and we're truly entertaining in PvP. But still in PvE we're so dumbed down that all our three specs play just the same (while in PvP everyone plays only one spec because of effectiveness).

    We need a revamp. Assa and Combat need better PvP tools and reliability, and in general for PvE rotations need to be reworked a lot. SnD is a boring mechanic, but it's the baseline to do any good performance for every spec. Same as Rupture.
    Rogues are basically the one class that didn't get at least one major class overhaul in any expansion. Rogues have been applying SnD, Rupture and then 5 point Eviscerates/Envenoms since Vanilla (with a few exceptions, e.g. fillers changing). The one thing that changed is how energy regen works, basically. Along with cooldowns.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CHNurf View Post
    Rogues are basically the one class that didn't get at least one major class overhaul in any expansion. Rogues have been applying SnD, Rupture and then 5 point Eviscerates/Envenoms since Vanilla (with a few exceptions, e.g. fillers changing). The one thing that changed is how energy regen works, basically. Along with cooldowns.
    Yeah but what does that have to do with demon hunters? DH use magic (mana burn, immo aura, demon transformation, etc). Rogues do not use magic. Yeah we have some borderline stuff like shadowblades or shadow step, but those are a pretty big step away from conjuring up fire or transforming into a demon to throw chaos bolts.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    So you got melee and evasion. Anything else that the DH has in common with the Rogue? You're even comparing the Warrior to the DH? Why just because it's a melee class?
    Yea, a lot. So, did you play WCIII? Because the heroes only had a couple abilities. They all used mana, and had spells. So a Demon Hunter walks up to his enemy and punches them. A rogue would stealth, and a warrior would charge. A Demon Hunter, like everyone else, walks on forward. So if you look at the list of classes, the rogue is the closest- he attacks in melee ceaselessly, and he has evasion. He even has a weapon in each hand! A weapon we all expected to be in WoW, and it's not (well, it did appear briefly as a set of legendaries, but that barely counts- you would expect warglaive to be a weapon type in this universe). What class is closer than the rogue? Note the demon hunter isn't well armored, unlike a warrior, and also note that the warrior pretty much shares NOTHING except being a melee.

    It's obviously not the paladin- he's the paladin. It's not the hunter, or the mage, and clearly not the priest. Certainly nothing in common with the druid or shaman, nature casters both, a kit that conflicts with the demon hunter's kit. The warlock had NOTHING in common until they gave him the ultimate- but he still doesn't play like a demon hunter, he's clearly a caster.

    So if you are looking to play a Demon Hunter, your favorite WCIII hero, you are probably picking rogue. It's really the closest. You might choose demo lock instead, but outside of meta it's nothing alike- if anything you are closer to the scourge heroes. Since BC, you've even had the RP pieces, and plenty of rogues run around with the blindfold transmog as night elf males- it's absolutely clear what they think they are, and I know they've got glaives in their bags waiting for the day when you can xmog legendaries.

    Yup. Rogue is the closest. You can say it isn't very close, but no one is saying ANYTHING is close enough for DH fans. Your choice is rogue or go home, pretty much.

  11. #31
    I remember demon hunters from warcraft3. they had mana and also manaburn. I dont want to have either on my rogue. demonhunters are too warlockish to me to be considered rogues.
    ~

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    You would have to replace a spec:

    Assassination | Subtlety | Demon Hunter

    ..would give rogues more flavor/lore connection, and work off the fact that rogues already operate like demon hunters without as much dark magic.

  13. #33
    Replace a spec lol.

    If they were doing this, it would be a fourth spec. There's no rule about only three specs.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I dare anyone to list the similarities between Rogue and Demon Hunter.
    It probably starts and ends with being dualwield and light armored.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    It probably starts and ends with being dualwield and light armored.
    And evasion. But that's about half of what a demon hunter is, so, it's definitely a best fit.



    I think Blizzard let the Demon Hunter ship sail already. There's too much melee as it is. This wasn't an issue in WCIII, but it is here. If they did add it as a class, they would probably put it as mail, and give it some kind of caster spec (also fully justified) in addition to a melee one. Making meta meaningful and different while allowing demo locks to keep it would be distracting, however.


    Another option would be- and I'm very much in favor of this- to add specs to existing classes. Making four or five specced classes isn't something Blizzard is excited to do, but it would be possible with the current way the specs work- and more interestingly, it would be cool new stuff without having to throw your character away, as the cata redesign did, and the mop redesign, and of course, if you main changed to DK or monk you lost your former class (if you liked being a DK, your original main was probably pally or warrior before LK).

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Why not? Combat has no flavor at all. Then you'd have to do this:

    Rogue - Demon Hunter

    Hunter - Warden
    Mage - Battlemage
    Death Knight - Lich
    Warrior - Blademaster
    Shaman - Shadow Hunter
    Druid - Druids have four specs.
    Monk - Dark-monk, utilizing shadow energy to maintain balance?
    Paladin - Something about ascension to angel-hood would be neat, holy/arcane caster.
    Warlock - 2H melee emulating Sargeras, using close range aoe fire attacks and melee range shadow damage.
    Priest - Someone else suggested a kind of Psymagus for a priest's fourth spec which I thought would be really good.


    Fourth spec is alright I guess, but you run into the obvious problems of balance difficulty as it is now +11 new specs.
    Last edited by Speaknoevil; 2013-02-09 at 04:36 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    Why not? Combat has no flavor at all. Then you'd have to do this:

    -things-

    Fourth spec is alright I guess, but you run into the obvious problems of balance difficulty as it is now +11 new specs.
    In the first, I'd shy away from a blanket statement saying that combat has no flavor. I don't enjoy it either, but people who do could... object to that statement being thrown out as fact. As for needing to have a fourth spec for everyone - why would that be necessary? As you point out, druids already have 4. If Blizzard wanted to add DH to the rogue class as the "magical" rogue side, they very well could without serious repercussions in balance (+1 spec, rather than +10).

    The topic on the whole seems a little silly though, since the DH is fairly well split between normal melee form (rogues have covered pretty well) and demon form (demo locks in Meta). Unless I'm missing something, there's no real addition to be had.

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    There is a lot of class overlap from warcraft abilities, and their distribution among the classes purely because of gameplay(not to mention that we can't play a Mage-Rogue or a Warror-Paladin.)

    There is no reason that I see why there couldn't be more class overlap in utilizing demonic energies, and still have strong variations between the two gameplay styles. Balancing nightmare aside, optimally you'd want to include classic flavor to the existing classes and new flare.
    __

    I say it has no flavor because after many years of Warcraft I feel entitled to make obvious observations about homogenization between the rogue specs today. I state it as fact, because it is fact that they are less distinct and interesting than they were throughout WoW's past, and pale in comparison to the other pure DPS class's spec distinction.

  19. #39
    They've taken anything that a Demon Hunter would have that would be unique, and already chunked it up and given it to the other classes. There's not much else to it.
    Wouldn't really like a DH spec either; Blizzard already has so many problems with making the current 3 specs feel unique, I'd hate to compound the problem with "Let's add a fourth spec" instead of "Let's make the 3 specs that Rogues already have feel unique".
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    You would have to replace a spec:

    Assassination | Subtlety | Demon Hunter[/SIZE]

    ..would give rogues more flavor/lore connection, and work off the fact that rogues already operate like demon hunters without as much dark magic.
    First, you mean without any magic, dark or otherwise. Second, how in the world does a rogue operate like a demon hunter? They aren't even remotely alike. Third, you would delete quite possibly the most played rogue spec (meaning total time played for specs since vanilla) in order to do this?

    And all this talk about 4th specs... are you guys seriously that optimistic? We currently have 3 very similar specs and rather than fix them, you guys would pin your hopes on having them add in a 4th spec and despite the first 3 being very similar, this new 4th spec will actually play noticeably different? Thats pretty crazy.

    Also what Carp said. What exactly do you think they could give us that isn't magic based and would be a clear demon hunter move? We have dual wield, light armor, and evasion. Those 3 things are so common in rpgs that just having those is hardly enough to guess what the hell class that is, so no thats not really going to make us demon hunters. However, those are the only iconic demon hunter abilities not already given to another class.

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