Disc Vs Holy 5.2

[jairash]

So Divine Aegis will absorb more than 100% heal

[Kaidye]

I could understand this change if we still had guaranteed DA procs from PoH, to give us a more even absorb amount. Giving us RNG DA with even more RNG piled on? Disc excels at predictable damage prevention through absorbs. Taking away our crit heals and giving us more absorbs in return seems irresponsible.

It does mean that Spirit Shell will be affected by mastery again though (at least the increased healing that mastery will provide our heals).

**All the above contingent on the fact that datamined info is real**

[HPLathus]

I could understand this change if we still had guaranteed DA procs from PoH, to give us a more even absorb amount. Giving us RNG DA with even more RNG piled on? Disc excels at predictable damage prevention through absorbs. Taking away our crit heals and giving us more absorbs in return seems irresponsible.

It does mean that Spirit Shell will be affected by mastery again though (at least the increased healing that mastery will provide our heals).

**All the above contingent on the fact that datamined info is real**

99% sure they stated somewhere recently that SS is going to remain un affected by mastery regardless of the changes.


Basically, they DON'T want disc to do nothing but pad absorbs, they want them to heal with the ability to do SOME absorbing.

[SaltLakeAtrocity]

I'm guessing the point of this was for a 10 man group (where individual healing spec matters much more than the already-diversified 25man healing group)

where the priest in question probably has a shadow off spec (that they presumably raid with) so they don't have the choice to utilize both healing specs.

With that in mind, from what I've seen in the fights, its pretty safe to assume that disc would be viable for competitive progression raiding on all fights. But so would holy, albeit with a slightly larger splinter of a gap to overcome.

[Kaidye]

I could understand that if mastery only affected absorbs, as it did before the datamined change. However, I have not seen any blue posts saying they were thinking about changing mastery and the change to Spirit Shell will not be affected. Only things I've seen are to the effect of mastery doesn't affect spirit shell in 5.2 (all posts and notes from before this change). You could be right, and the healing increase won't affect Spirit Shell either. I haven't seen anything stating that Spirit Shell will never be affected by mastery ever again though; it would be helpful if you found that post you referred to.

It would also be a little silly of them to buff our healing through mastery, but have that extra healing not translate into Spirit Shell. Spirit Shell absorbs would be 6.4% weaker than our normal heals, in that case.


Also, your statement that Blizzard wants us to heal with some absorbs makes no sense given the datamined crit change. They just nerfed our actual healing to give us more absorbs, if the datamining is accurate.

[HPLathus]

I was only taking about the absorb portion of the mastery, I have no idea if they want the healing mastery to affect SS. Most likley will simply because its increasing the PoH not the absorb.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 05:54 PM ----------

Also, your statement that Blizzard wants us to heal with some absorbs makes no sense given the datamined crit change. They just nerfed our actual healing to give us more absorbs, if the datamining is accurate.

Because DA will only proc that way on crits, and it's not like the DA will be a 200k absorb, its going to just be the other half of the heal. So if PoH normally hits for 45k, a crit would put a 45k shield on someone + whatever bonus you have from mastery.


Considering most disc have 15-20% crit in raids, DA is not going to be significant nearly as much as it is right now. The change to DA is actually a pretty huge nerf to DA stacking on the raid.

[Kaidye]

Are you talking about the original DA change that reverts DA back to only proccing on crits (and not guaranteed from PoH)? That change is a large nerf to DA stacking, I agree. This most recent change is a buff to the amount of DA going out, and a nerf to our total healing in a non-vacuum setting.

We are getting DA solely from crits starting in 5.2. This takes us from reliable DA stacking to pre-mitigate damage to proccing random absorbs on people when PoH crits (or whichever spell you use). If you are using PoH in 5.2, chances are it is to actually heal that person after damage occurs, not in anticipation of damage and to heal afterwards as it is now. The DA on crit from a PoH heal in 5.2 was a by-product of your crit heal - a crit heal which, considering the situation I described above, was probably necessary unless you like overhealing. The absorb might or might not be used, depending on when the crit went off - if it is an aura fight, it'll be useful; if it was a large spike of raid damage, it probably won't. With the crit change just datamined, we lose the 100% extra healing done to our PoH target from the crit, and gain it as DA. Looking at the situation I laid out, that is a nerf to the healing style that will be more prevalent in 5.2 unless the PoH crit came during an aura fight.

My point - if you are using PoH to heal up damage in 5.2 rather than blanket the raid with DA as we did in 5.1, this change is a nerf to our actual healing. The randomness of the DA absorb, because it only procs from crits in 5.2, added to the fact that the DA might or might not be used up before it expires, makes DA absorbs unpredictable. Reducing our healing output and funneling the crit heal into DA absorbs means we are potentially less effective at actually healing damage.

[Deleted]

So discs are now a slightly different version of holypallys. great.

[Facepalmer3]

I keep hearing people freak out about this. As I understand it, Disc will basically be more balanced stat wise. Instead of being heavily dependent on mastery, it'll now be more balanced to benefit from other stats like crit. Basically Disc Priests were "blocking" too much to the point where other healers couldn't really contribute equally.

[HPLathus]

Are you talking about the original DA change that reverts DA back to only proccing on crits (and not guaranteed from PoH)? That change is a large nerf to DA stacking, I agree. This most recent change is a buff to the amount of DA going out, and a nerf to our total healing in a non-vacuum setting.

We are getting DA solely from crits starting in 5.2. This takes us from reliable DA stacking to pre-mitigate damage to proccing random absorbs on people when PoH crits (or whichever spell you use). If you are using PoH in 5.2, chances are it is to actually heal that person after damage occurs, not in anticipation of damage and to heal afterwards as it is now. The DA on crit from a PoH heal in 5.2 was a by-product of your crit heal - a crit heal which, considering the situation I described above, was probably necessary unless you like overhealing. The absorb might or might not be used, depending on when the crit went off - if it is an aura fight, it'll be useful; if it was a large spike of raid damage, it probably won't. With the crit change just datamined, we lose the 100% extra healing done to our PoH target from the crit, and gain it as DA. Looking at the situation I laid out, that is a nerf to the healing style that will be more prevalent in 5.2 unless the PoH crit came during an aura fight.

My point - if you are using PoH to heal up damage in 5.2 rather than blanket the raid with DA as we did in 5.1, this change is a nerf to our actual healing. The randomness of the DA absorb, because it only procs from crits in 5.2, added to the fact that the DA might or might not be used up before it expires, makes DA absorbs unpredictable. Reducing our healing output and funneling the crit heal into DA absorbs means we are potentially less effective at actually healing damage.

Divine Aegis - Critical heals create a protective shield on the target, absorbing 100% of the amount healed, instead of healing for twice as much. Lasts 15 sec. Additionally, Power Word: Shield has a chance equal to your critical effect chance to absorb twice as much.


I am not sure what recent buff you are talking about, they never released the DA changes on PTR till today. Todays notes are just them actually applying the change + a couple other minor changes to the PTR.


Your post was.. a bit confusing...... I never said it was a buff >.> I only said everything has been a nerf/change. I am still not sure what you are trying to point out O.o

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 06:23 PM ----------

Also, you said they nerfed our healing to give us more absorbs.... thats actually the opposite of what they did.

They just nerfed our actual healing to give us more absorbs, if the datamining is accurate.

They increased our NON CRIT healing VIA mastery.


Nerfed almost all of our absorbtion mechanics significantly. DA not 100% on PoH, SS not affected by absorbtion mastery, and now a little PW:S nerf.



How is any of that a healing nerf and absorption buff? >_>


I am not trying to be rude, I just don't understand what you are trying to point out right now..

[Noradin]

So discs are now a slightly different version of holypallys. great.

If differnt equals weaker, then yes. Their absorbs are much more predictable after the patch.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 08:06 PM ----------

I keep hearing people freak out about this. As I understand it, Disc will basically be more balanced stat wise. Instead of being heavily dependent on mastery, it'll now be more balanced to benefit from other stats like crit. Basically Disc Priests were "blocking" too much to the point where other healers couldn't really contribute equally.

Ah, yes, just that they nerf your direct healing more than our absorbs.

[Kaidye]

Divine Aegis - Critical heals create a protective shield on the target, absorbing 100% of the amount healed, instead of healing for twice as much. Lasts 15 sec. Additionally, Power Word: Shield has a chance equal to your critical effect chance to absorb twice as much.


I am not sure what recent buff you are talking about, they never released the DA changes on PTR till today. Todays notes are just them actually applying the change + a couple other minor changes to the PTR.



[/COLOR]Also, you said they nerfed our healing to give us more absorbs.... thats actually the opposite of what they did.



They increased our NON CRIT healing VIA mastery.


Nerfed almost all of our absorbtion mechanics significantly. DA not 100% on PoH, SS not affected by absorbtion mastery, and now a little PW:S nerf.



How is any of that a healing nerf and absorption buff? >_>


I am not trying to be rude, I just don't understand what you are trying to point out right now..

You seem to be missing the datamined change to DA, which is what my entire post is referring to... The healing "nerf" that I referred to: currently, when a spell crits, we receive 200% of the original heal, plus 50% of the original heal as DA. The datamined change is that we no longer get the extra 100% heal, and it is instead funneled entirely to DA.

Example: You cast a 100k Greater Heal. It crits on live for a 200k heal plus a 50k absorb (ignoring mastery at this point). With the datamined change - you cast a 100k Greater Heal that crits, and you get 100k healing and 100k in absorbs.

In my example in the original post - come 5.2, because PoH no longer guarantees DA, you will be casting PoH more to heal people up than to proactively DA the raid. With this change, you no longer get double healing on any crit, and a larger absorb. Technically, the change is supposed to balance out; however, this only happens if the extra absorb you put on someone is used. Hence, a healing nerf because we will no longer heal as much, and an absorb "buff" because the absorb becomes larger (even though its only a buff when the extra is used).

Divine Aegis - Critical heals create a protective shield on the target, absorbing 100% of the amount healed, instead of healing for twice as much. Lasts 15 sec. Additionally, Power Word: Shield has a chance equal to your critical effect chance to absorb twice as much.

If you read my post, you'll see I'm very clear on the fact that I'm referring to the DA datamined change, and that's it. I already posted in another thread about all the datamined changes (even though it keeps getting referred to a GM for approval, and I don't feel like rewriting it again).

[HPLathus]

This isn't a data mined change.. It's been a known change for a week. The patch today simply applied it. It's a nerf to our absorbs, and a small buff to raw healing.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:48 PM ----------

People need to stop focusing on poh so much.

They are buffing raw healing in many ways and disc uses far more then simply poh.

Atonement got a buff, penance got a buff. Our direct healing *non crit* got a buff and pw:s got a buff. Not to mention the binding heal glyph which is a aoe healing buff...

This is exactly what I mean when I say disc on these forums at times can be narrow minded about the changes.


PoH is not the single most important spell for disc.

There are plenty of other buffs to the class that balance out the absorb nerfs and people need to stop worrying about PoH spam so much

[Kaidye]

It was announced by blue post on the 15th - this is the datamining confirming it was put into the most recent PTR build. Please explain how it is a buffto raw healing and a nerf to absorbs when they are removing our ability to crit heal?

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:54 PM ----------

You seem to be thinking that the only thing I'm worried about is this change, and that the sky is falling because of it. I like most of the other changes - it diversifies the class and will make people less reliant on spamming just a few spells (just Atonement spamming, just PoH+Spirit Shell, just Pw:S, etc). I just think that this crit DA change is a hit on our raw healing, and it isn't made up by the new mastery.

[HPLathus]

It was announced by blue post on the 15th - this is the datamining confirming it was put into the most recent PTR build. Please explain how it is a buffto raw healing and a nerf to absorbs when they are removing our ability to crit heal?

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:54 PM ----------

You seem to be thinking that the only thing I'm worried about is this change, and that the sky is falling because of it. I like most of the other changes - it diversifies the class and will make people less reliant on spamming just a few spells (just Atonement spamming, just PoH+Spirit Shell, just Pw:S, etc). I just think that this crit DA change is a hit on our raw healing, and it isn't made up by the new mastery.

Because not every single spell crits and you are simply viewing it looking at poh.

Gheal, heal, flash heal, binding heal, Pom, Renew, penance, all atonement heals get at least 6% more healing. If you stack mastery, probably around 15% healing.

In my opinion, you should never rely on crit heals to boost your healing. Static increase in throughput will always be guaranteed. Crits will not.


Again, I'm not speaking about the DA change. I'm speaking about mastery.


At this point, people need to accept the fact disc won't be able to rely on PoH come 5.2.

Disc is slowly becoming an expert spot heal healer who can do dps, absorb and aoe heal.

[Miko]

Abosrbs don't matter when HP is already dangerously low, or with debuffs requiring %s of health, or when damage is unpredictable.

Discs biggest strength is also it's biggest weakness. They simply cannot put out the raw healing other calsses can, and only look good due to their absorbs. Remove the predictable damage waves and disc isn't so hot anymore.

A 100k sheild is the same as a 100k heal, if the shield lands another healer will top the bar off. A disc biggest strength is its biggest strength. It does not suffer from that in any way as you will not be single healing fights. But the lack of shields form a holy is noticable.

Also you can't say "if you take away predictable dmg" because thats like taking an aspect of the fight away in an attempt to say something in favor of something that isn't true with the way every raid works. We will always have predictable dmg, the next tier we will have it. Asorbs will always > raw healing if nothing more then the lack of the healers able to do those asorbs with the fact they are taken into healing # first

[KidCanuck]

Nerfed almost all of our absorbtion mechanics significantly. DA not 100% on PoH, SS not affected by absorbtion mastery, and now a little PW:S nerf. How is any of that a healing nerf and absorption buff? >_>

All crits now producing a 100% DA instead of +100% heal and ~50% DA. Less healing, more absorbs. Also, PW:S can now crit.

[HPLathus]

You will still be doing more healing then absorbs, you don't crit 100% of the time and can't rely on crit to increase your healing due to RNG

[Blachshma]

Are you talking about the original DA change that reverts DA back to only proccing on crits (and not guaranteed from PoH)? That change is a large nerf to DA stacking, I agree. This most recent change is a buff to the amount of DA going out, and a nerf to our total healing in a non-vacuum setting.

We are getting DA solely from crits starting in 5.2. This takes us from reliable DA stacking to pre-mitigate damage to proccing random absorbs on people when PoH crits (or whichever spell you use). If you are using PoH in 5.2, chances are it is to actually heal that person after damage occurs, not in anticipation of damage and to heal afterwards as it is now. The DA on crit from a PoH heal in 5.2 was a by-product of your crit heal - a crit heal which, considering the situation I described above, was probably necessary unless you like overhealing. The absorb might or might not be used, depending on when the crit went off - if it is an aura fight, it'll be useful; if it was a large spike of raid damage, it probably won't. With the crit change just datamined, we lose the 100% extra healing done to our PoH target from the crit, and gain it as DA. Looking at the situation I laid out, that is a nerf to the healing style that will be more prevalent in 5.2 unless the PoH crit came during an aura fight.

My point - if you are using PoH to heal up damage in 5.2 rather than blanket the raid with DA as we did in 5.1, this change is a nerf to our actual healing. The randomness of the DA absorb, because it only procs from crits in 5.2, added to the fact that the DA might or might not be used up before it expires, makes DA absorbs unpredictable. Reducing our healing output and funneling the crit heal into DA absorbs means we are potentially less effective at actually healing damage.

I think these are good changes. Blizzard finally realized that having too many reliable absorbs (that stack, no less):

1) Make a group be able to slack more and avoid boss mechanics.
2) Unfair to other healers.
3) Makes for a pretty boring rotation as some disc priests complained about spamming PoH over and over again.

Now, disc priests will be more of what they claim to be - healers. Absorbs will become less reliable and more of the niche they were supposed to be in the fist place.

[Spoonman]

I had a nightmare raid once back in Cata as Disc and I never tried it again after that so I was abit sceptical when everyone was playing it in 5.1. I loved Holy like hell( I made it into logs on every boss we killed this patch as holy) so It took me a few respecs to convince me that disc was playable now

The way I see it is that Disc is amazing in 5.1. I didnt play disc at start because I had no idea that PoH procced DAs(lack of knowledge) so I thought that AoE healing was terrible and since were 2 man healing in my guild It felt like it was impossible to keep people up (If u didnt manage to put up great Spirit Shells at right times ure screwed).
The greatest difference Ive felt from Holy after playing disc for a while now is that in Disc is for some reason possible to spam everything and u never go oom. Cascade, Poh spams etc use everything on CD and Spell infusion with Poh is very viable as aoe healing.

Im not that into PTR and read up on new changes but the ones ive seen is only buffs. But I would love if Holy was this good in 5.2, I love to to play holy more than disc.

And also, the crossed sentence
"is no longer guaranteed when Prayer of Healing is cast. The effect now activates when the spell crits." on the front page, doesnt that mean they reverted the change?