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  1. #61
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    Hm, curious, so Bloodlust *can* re-stack, but not necessary. No icd, but PPM.
    Makes me wonder if Barrage would be a way to force it into stacking.

    Oh wait, RealPPM doesn't care about number of attacks, right? Nevermind then.
    Last edited by Thiron; 2013-02-14 at 11:00 AM.
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  2. #62
    Would people say the valor trinket is better than botte heroic 2/2 upgraded or the relic of xuen 2/2? Trying to figure out what to buy.

  3. #63
    • Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault – 15% chance on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 105 sec ICD.
    • Renataki's Soul Charm – 0.56 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 22 sec ICD.
    • Talisman of Bloodlust – 3.00 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD.
    • Bad Juju – 0.50 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD. Voodoo Gnomes are mostly for flavor; they deal ~200 damage before armor per hit.
    • Rune of Re-Origination – 0.46 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 22 sec ICD

    Updated the main post with the info above.
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  4. #64
    Bad juju with bloodlust is looking pretty good.... and the meta does scale with survival. The explanation on re-organization sounds counter productive. Now that we know it completely removes your other two stats for the period.

  5. #65
    Well don't forget, the rune still gives 1657 agility on it's own which is very close to the average of the other trinkets. Granted you can delay cooldowns to use during the procs for more benefit but still. The proc may not do much, but the internal cooldown is very low. Unless you are using heroic tier 14 fully upgraded raid trinkets it may not be a bad pickup. The real PPM just ruins it in my eyes. I for one won't be using it in it's current state.

    For the ones who do, pass it over to a Rogue or something. They have the same issues as us where all secondary stats are very close in worth but... shhh don't tell them.

  6. #66
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    The RealPPM system is giving me a headache. Does it consider all haste buffs? Or only your personal haste?

    Without haste calculations, valor trinket seems to have...highest average AGI of all normal trinkets? Considering 105 sec ICD, we should expect about 110 sec overall CD, giving it 1600 AGI average.
    It does seem to be better than current HC trinkets 2/2.
    Renataki's and Bad Juju normal get equal at ~31% "RealPPM-changing haste".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Well don't forget, the rune still gives 1657 agility on it's own which is very close to the average of the other trinkets. Granted you can delay cooldowns to use during the procs for more benefit but still. The proc may not do much, but the internal cooldown is very low. Unless you are using heroic tier 14 fully upgraded raid trinkets it may not be a bad pickup. The real PPM just ruins it in my eyes. I for one won't be using it in it's current state.

    For the ones who do, pass it over to a Rogue or something. They have the same issues as us where all secondary stats are very close in worth but... shhh don't tell them.
    Rune has low ICD,but ALSO low PPM. average uptime ~ 15.5%, modified by haste.
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  7. #67
    I'm so fucking confused


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  8. #68
    I will be going after Soul Charm and bad juju. Those seem by far the best options considering the very short ICD. And who the hell wouldn't want 3 voodoo gnomes fighting for you thats awesome. I love it when trinkets have extra "LOL" stuff.

  9. #69
    I just mathed this out, but bear with me. This is my first foray into RealPPM math. Point out any mistakes wherever you can, please. Disregard some of the random commentary, as I did this largely for myself and my guild's other hunters, but I feel it deserves to be here as well.

    So lots of very specific trinket info out.

    First off, Rune of Origination, garbage. Not worth even considering. Losing all haste and mastery not worth any amount of crit that isn't some obscene, disgusting number. Hopefully it gets changed. Worse, has the potential to push you into NEGATIVE values for your lower stats. Completely idiotic.

    Other trinkets:

    Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault:
    +1,467 Hit (4.31% at L90)
    Equip: Your attacks have a chance to grant you 8,800 Agility for 20 sec.
    - 15% chance on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 105 sec ICD.

    From here on, all trinket values are Heroic trinket values.

    Renataki's Soul Charm:
    +1,657 Expertise (4.87 at L90)
    Equip: Your attacks have a chance to grant Blades of Renataki, granting 1,505 Agility every 2 sec for 20 sec.
    - 0.56 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 22 sec ICD.
    Talisman of Bloodlust:
    +1,657 Agility
    Equip: Your attacks have a chance to grant you 1,736 haste for 10 sec. This effect can stack up to 5 times.
    - 3.00 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD.
    Bad Juju:
    +1,657 Mastery (2.76 at L90)
    Equip: When your attacks hit you have a chance to gain 8,279 Agility and summon 3 Voodoo Gnomes for 20 sec.
    – 0.50 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD. Voodoo Gnomes are mostly for flavor; they deal ~200 damage before armor per hit.


    For purposes of RealPPM, gonna guess a random value of 8% haste (arbitrary value of 3400 haste) for fights. Hopefully I do this right. I'm unsure how to take the weapon swing portion of RealPPM into account (and believe that only has to do with weapon enchants anyways), so not going to bother, so all of these values for RealPPM are actually possibly low. They're probably low anyways, because my haste estimation is low and doesn't take into account actual Throne of Thunder gear at all.

    Rep trinket isn't terrible for once. I'm still using normal bottle, and if that doesn't change, might pick it up and replace bottle with it. Proc chance is a bit too low though, so what should come out to just over 1600 agi in value is more realistically most likely around 1400. Awkward ICD and low proc chance makes it unlikely to line up with anything outside of the pull. Not RealPPM.

    At first glance, Soul Charm still seems full and away the best. Short ICD on a very powerful proc is potent. The last ten seconds of the proc are giving over 10k agility, which is ridonculous. 22 second ICD gives it ~ a constant 10% proc chance on all attacks, but will keep it from ever stacking from itself. Very potent imo. Only downside is static expertise, but seems far too good to worry about that unless gear is seriously expertise bloated (haven't checked).

    Bloodlust trinket seems potentially awesome as well, since its own effect will increase its proc chance. 3 PPM so at the start with 8% haste (start of the fight or 10 full seconds since a proc), proc chance is 54%. With 1 stack, chance to reproc at -5- seconds into the buff would be 28%, with 2 stacks, chance to reproc at 5 seconds would be 29%, 3 stacks would be 30%, 4 stacks would be 31%, and 5 stacks would be ~32%. So that's a lot of iffs to stack it, but not really a bad chance to do so.
    At 8 seconds into buff duration, the chance to reproc at 1 stack is instead 45% to reproc, 8 seconds into 2 stacks would be 46%, and so on with a rising proc chance for refreshing itself.
    By the way, with base 8% haste, at 5 stacks you are at 28.4% haste!

    Bad Juju is interesting because it has a chance of reproccing before the duration is up. RealPPM means it won't refresh the duration, we'll just get 2 separate 8k agi buffs (and 6 gnomes!).
    The proc chance is low, though; at base 10 seconds (at 8% haste again), has only a 9% proc chance. So there's a 9% chance for it to reproc starting 10 seconds into each 8k agi proc. Potentially quite good, but one of those trinkets where you could go a really long time without a proc if you're unfortunate.

    Looking at all this, pairing the Bloodlust trinket with either Bad Juju or Soul Charm seems like the best bet, since the Bloodlust trinket will gradually increase the proc chance of the other two. Soul Charm will likely be the better bet. I could've done this horribly wrong, but I woke up at 6 a.m. and wanted to hash out trinkets now that we had info. Remember the Bloodlust trinket is also giving a static 1657 agi, which is good in its own right.

    Again, Reorigination trinket is super duper garbage. Makes me super duper sad. Not gonna bother mathing it.

    For reference, RealPPM % = PPM*1.(haste %)*seconds since last proc(cap of 10)/60.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 06:37 AM ----------

    Oh, and, just for fun, here's the legendary meta gem calculated for my current AP value as BM from armory (40388 AP).

    24.06 RealPPM base chance for BM. 8% haste again. It is 100% assured to proc approximately every 2 seconds, and very likely (~50%) to proc every second.

    Proc damage would be 280+75%AP nature damage, so just over 30k noncrits every 5 to 10 seconds. Based off of my current armory AP and no procs at all. LUL
    Last edited by Herecius; 2013-02-14 at 02:35 PM.

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  10. #70
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    So, do haste buffs not affect PPM? 8% is fine as *personal* haste, but you'll also have 10% buff, heroism, RF, FF/ISS, etc etc. If those do not count, Valor one is BiS in all normal trinkets - and by quite a lot. So I think they count.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    So, do haste buffs not affect PPM? 8% is fine as *personal* haste, but you'll also have 10% buff, heroism, RF, FF/ISS, etc etc. If those do not count, Valor one is BiS in all normal trinkets - and by quite a lot. So I think they count.
    I'm pretty sure they do count, yeah. Blue post on the front page seems to imply it.
    And remember that haste increases the frequency of procs.
    I still do not like the valor one. Awkward ICD, low proc chance. I like it a lot more than my current trinkets, but matching it up against the 5.2 raid trinkets hurts it.

    I also purposefully chose a VERY low haste value, because I would rather underestimate than overestimate in this case. Knowing the proc chances can only go up makes it easier to eyeball than thinking about how the proc chances might be lower.
    Last edited by Herecius; 2013-02-14 at 03:00 PM.

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  12. #72
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    Well, I wonder. Both ICD and proc chance of valor trinket are same as Terror in the Mists.
    Let's do the math then!
    The average AGI gain depends on how long it won't proc: 1676 AGI (instant), 1600 AGI (5 sec), 1530 AGI (10 sec), 1466 AGI (15 sec), etc etc. Considering 15% chance of proc for ANY skill and auto-shot, I think 5-10 seconds average sound fair. But you do have a chance of very bad procing.

    Bad Juju is pretty easy to math out, it gives 1222 AGI * (1+PPM Haste) normal / 1380 AGI * (1+PPM Haste) heroic

    Soul Charm wording is a bit confusing - do we get agi from 0 second, or from 2 second? Assuming that average when going to 10 stacks is 5 stacks (it might be 5.5), average it gives 1244 AGI * (1+PPM Haste) normal / 1404 AGI * (1+PPM Haste) heroic
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  13. #73
    I'm guessing it works just like the Deathwing polearm, so probably agi from the moment it procs, rather than 2 seconds later.

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  14. #74
    weird thing is that it seems that if you get the bloodlust trinket it MIGHT make marks viable. However i think BM and SV might still edge it out until people are getting near then 530 ilvl range.

    thinking bloodlust and voodoo for me as far as HC trinkets go... but i will have valor ready for the valor one if i never see elegon drop that trinket for me..

  15. #75
    Bad juju + talisman of bloodlust will be bis imo.

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  16. #76
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    Ugh, Bloodlust is hard to math out, since it gives extra benefit when it manages to stack...other PPM trinkets without ICD might also have chance to give multiple buffs at once, but they are independent, and this one refreshes duration of first stack.
    The average uptime of Bloodlust is 60-70%, but I'm not sure how to calculate actual average benefit there...

    Interesting, if you manage to crazy stack haste as BM, you might be able to push to 100% uptime, but you'd need about 9-10k haste rating without counting the trink. That way you would have 100% effective haste with 5 stacks of the trinket,Focus Fire and 10% raid buff, making 3 RealPPM into 6 actual PPM... Crazy stuff, but I wonder if Rogues could actually reach that, they stack haste anyway.
    Last edited by Thiron; 2013-02-14 at 04:29 PM.
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  17. #77
    Looking at it all again, I think I'm going to agree that Talisman+Bad Juju is likely going to end up coming out ahead. With enough haste built up, Bad Juju stands a fair chance of stacking with itself. especially during RF/Lust/Talisman stacks.

    If you're at, say, an arbitrary value of 24% haste (you can and will almost certainly be higher at points) with procs and/or cooldowns and such, then Bad Juju has a chance to re-proc every second after the first 10 seconds of a proc. With some luck, it can absolutely beat out Soul Charm.

    Soul Charm will likely provide more even damage overall, but Bad Juju can, with some luck, provide some very sick numbers that should beat it, especially during lust/RF when it really really counts.

    In any case, only Reorigination really comes off as blatently meh. Solid trinket choices for 5.2 overall.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 08:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    Interesting, if you manage to crazy stack haste as BM, you might be able to push to 100% uptime, but you'd need about 9-10k haste rating without counting the trink. That way you would have 100% effective haste with 5 stacks of the trinket,Focus Fire and 10% raid buff, making 3 RealPPM into 6 actual PPM... Crazy stuff, but I wonder if Rogues could actually reach that, they stack haste anyway.
    You're probably right that Talisman is going to be OP as ALLLLLLL shit for rogues. I'd elect to pass to a rogue before taking one, most likely, personally.

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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Rullis View Post
    Would people say the valor trinket is better than botte heroic 2/2 upgraded or the relic of xuen 2/2? Trying to figure out what to buy.
    I'd say the shado pan trinket is better than both, but the bottle is better than xuen, but I wouldn't recommend buying it over the other valor items. It also requires friendly rep when you only get rep from killing bosses. Imo the best way to spend your vp going into 5.2 is to cap it before 5.2 then buy the neutral neck the first week and if you get friendly in that week buy the ring, but if you get friendly the next week buy the bracers and the ring. The ring is pre H bis with crit/mastery, the bracers have crit/mastery on them and the neck is an upgrade regardless 13 ilvls of agi is huge and you wont be able to buy anything else most likely in the first week.

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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    Ugh, Bloodlust is hard to math out, since it gives extra benefit when it manages to stack...other PPM trinkets without ICD might also have chance to give multiple buffs at once, but they are independent, and this one refreshes duration of first stack.
    The average uptime of Bloodlust is 60-70%, but I'm not sure how to calculate actual average benefit there...

    Interesting, if you manage to crazy stack haste as BM, you might be able to push to 100% uptime, but you'd need about 9-10k haste rating without counting the trink. That way you would have 100% effective haste with 5 stacks of the trinket,Focus Fire and 10% raid buff, making 3 RealPPM into 6 actual PPM... Crazy stuff, but I wonder if Rogues could actually reach that, they stack haste anyway.
    hate may be the worst stat for SV and BM however all the stats are pretty close, so what ever gives the most of a certain stay is pretty much the winner at this point. That would be the haste one. It is a truckton of haste.

  20. #80
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    I have done some simple program simulation to calculate average benefit of Talisman of Bloodlust.
    I ran with making a "chance to proc" action every 1 second, which is close to truth on stationary fights (since auto-shots are included).
    Chance of procing was taken from this blue post.
    It's absolutely not precise, but I feel that it should be within 5-10% of truth. For some reason I got about 0.5 more "emulated" PPM than I should have. Each emulation was for 100mil seconds, so the random spread is pretty much covered.

    Here is a spreadsheed with average number of stacks and average Haste benefit that I got as result.

    I have also made another spreadsheet with calculations for all of the trinkets with RealPPM. I assumed average of 5 stacks over duration of Soul Charm. It might be 5.5 average, but then it would give extra 10% agility, and I doubt it.

    The interesting thing is the fact that Talisman raises your average Haste, making your other trinket get exta 50-70 agi from Real PPM mechanic.
    The haste is average haste over the fight, FemaleDwarf shows average around 20 for SV,30 for MM, 35 for BM with almost no haste on my gear (3,5%).
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