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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    playing the devil's advocate, why should only 300 or so guilds out of hundreds of thousands be entitled to the feat of strength? what percentage of players should be entitled to a reward for completing content in a timely manner?
    Because those 300 or so guilds are good enough to earn it?

    Why should 4 million or so people be denied new content so 70k players can earn a Feat of Strength?

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    There's a mountain of difference between 8 bosses (that were retardedly easy on all levels) for almost 1 year, on top of that near enough slising everything in half in terms of dmg / hp across the board, and then having 16 bosses for 4 months.., using your own analogy, they might as well release a new content patch every month, because surely that would make perfect sense -.-

    Try n' look at the rate of which things are being ptr tested.., does anyone want a buggy release just because it's new content?- or maybe that is what people want, so it allows for cheesing...
    Do you *have* to clear every boss? No.
    Some guilds have cleared every boss on HC, and are bored, some have barely gotten past the first couple. If we listen to the arguments of "I need to clear the bosses first!" people, nothing will get released for 1-2 years.
    The logic your trying to show here is flawed, because content is cleared at differing rates by differing people. Honestly, 4 months is MORE than enough for people to clear and push through the content. Ultimately, it comes down to the people you play with, if they cannot clear it, how is that Blizzards problem?
    Saying "Don't rush stuff else there will be bugs!" is also a fallacy. There will be bugs and balancing issues regardless of how long they leave it on the PTR. Ultimately, as I said, if people haven't cleared the stuff after 4 months, that is there problem, not Blizzards, and you shouldn't expect an entire demograph of players to be kept waiting because El Crappo guild is still trying to get off Sha normal.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 09:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Because those 300 or so guilds are good enough to earn it?

    Why should 4 million or so people be denied new content so 70k players can earn a Feat of Strength?
    Exactly what I am getting at.

    People have had MORE than enough time, they really have, they just cannot see it is all.

  3. #583
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    Do you *have* to clear every boss? No.
    Some guilds have cleared every boss on HC, and are bored, some have barely gotten past the first couple. If we listen to the arguments of "I need to clear the bosses first!" people, nothing will get released for 1-2 years.
    The logic your trying to show here is flawed, because content is cleared at differing rates by differing people. Honestly, 4 months is MORE than enough for people to clear and push through the content. Ultimately, it comes down to the people you play with, if they cannot clear it, how is that Blizzards problem?
    Saying "Don't rush stuff else there will be bugs!" is also a fallacy. There will be bugs and balancing issues regardless of how long they leave it on the PTR. Ultimately, as I said, if people haven't cleared the stuff after 4 months, that is there problem, not Blizzards, and you shouldn't expect an entire demograph of players to be kept waiting because El Crappo guild is still trying to get off Sha normal.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 09:01 PM ----------



    Exactly what I am getting at.

    People have had MORE than enough time, they really have, they just cannot see it is all.
    although I did not agree with your arguement that 4 months should be sufficienf for everyone I did follow what you were saying and your statement was almost valuable until you capped it by stating that if it isnt enough time you are crap.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 03:05 PM ----------

    that is the point in a nutshell. it is not the 4 million people who are complete and ready for more it is the couple thousand which puts it clearly in perspective.


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  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    that is the point in a nutshell. it is not the 4 million people who are complete and ready for more it is the couple thousand which puts it clearly in perspective.
    There are more than just raiders that play this game additional content goes hand in hand with raid tiers.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    although I did not agree with your arguement that 4 months should be sufficienf for everyone I did follow what you were saying and your statement was almost valuable until you capped it by stating that if it isnt enough time you are crap.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 03:05 PM ----------

    that is the point in a nutshell. it is not the 4 million people who are complete and ready for more it is the couple thousand which puts it clearly in perspective.
    No, it was just a generalisation, and not meant to be taken as literal. The idea is that people expect to have things catered for *them*. Its an impossible time frame for Blizzard to follow. They will ahve statistics showing who has cleared what, and to what level, and as long as a minimum threshold has been reached, then they will feel it is time to release a new raid patch. Evidently they have reached that. Had it been so only a tiny handful of guilds worldwide had completed 1-2 HC modes, its likely we would see the patch extended for 5-6 months with nerfs to come, but evidently that hasn't happened, thus, we can extrapolate that they are hapy with the current progress, and issuing a 10% nerf to the old raids to allow "catch up" etc.

    The point still rings true though, if people haven't cleared said content by this time, then it is their responsibility and error, not Blizzards who are armed with data that says "Yes, it's time to release".

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 09:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    There are more than just raiders that play this game additional content goes hand in hand with raid tiers.
    Thing is though, most of the more focused raiders will have cleared/be on last few stages. By this time, the only guilds I can imagine struggling will be the low tier/low progress guilds, and people cannot honestly expect a business to release content based upon them.
    There are more than just raid guilds in WoW, and it's high time people remembered that.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    By this time, the only guilds I can imagine struggling will be the low tier/low progress guilds, and people cannot honestly expect a business to release content based upon them.
    There are more than just raid guilds in WoW, and it's high time people remembered that.
    People can expect a rational business to focus on their most numerous customers. For some reason, Blizzard focuses on their most skilled customers, even though they are a tiny minority.

    This prejudice on Blizzard's part explains, I think, why there are far more WoW ex-players than WoW players. The game is a giant bait and switch.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

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  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    People can expect a rational business to focus on their most numerous customers. For some reason, Blizzard focuses on their most skilled customers, even though they are a tiny minority.

    This prejudice on Blizzard's part explains, I think, why there are far more WoW ex-players than WoW players. The game is a giant bait and switch.
    Blizzard is focusing on their customers thats doing LFR only because they are in a BIG majority, and they are tired of this tier and want a new LFR to run.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    No, it was just a generalisation, and not meant to be taken as literal. The idea is that people expect to have things catered for *them*. Its an impossible time frame for Blizzard to follow. They will ahve statistics showing who has cleared what, and to what level, and as long as a minimum threshold has been reached, then they will feel it is time to release a new raid patch. Evidently they have reached that. Had it been so only a tiny handful of guilds worldwide had completed 1-2 HC modes, its likely we would see the patch extended for 5-6 months with nerfs to come, but evidently that hasn't happened, thus, we can extrapolate that they are hapy with the current progress, and issuing a 10% nerf to the old raids to allow "catch up" etc.

    The point still rings true though, if people haven't cleared said content by this time, then it is their responsibility and error, not Blizzards who are armed with data that says "Yes, it's time to release".

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 09:17 PM ----------



    Thing is though, most of the more focused raiders will have cleared/be on last few stages. By this time, the only guilds I can imagine struggling will be the low tier/low progress guilds, and people cannot honestly expect a business to release content based upon them.
    There are more than just raid guilds in WoW, and it's high time people remembered that.
    Even without access to the data Blizzard have we can see from Wow Progress that the number of guilds that have cleared HC Sha is extremely low and that even discounting alts less than 150k players (roughly 4% of the player base) have cleared normal Sha compared to just under 470k that have killed the first boss. Somewhere between the beginning and the end of the normal tier over two thirds of the players that have killed the first boss have given up on raiding I don't think we are in any position to say whether Blizzard are happy with the current rate of progress and there is a chance that they may decide the level of difficulty is currently too high and make the next tier easier.

    That said I don't believe that there is any reason to delay the patch for a few thousand raiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    People can expect a rational business to focus on their most numerous customers. For some reason, Blizzard focuses on their most skilled customers, even though they are a tiny minority.

    This prejudice on Blizzard's part explains, I think, why there are far more WoW ex-players than WoW players. The game is a giant bait and switch.
    This is an interesting point and I get the impression that Blizzard sometimes suffers from and is blinded by a need to be loved and that the management has not made the step up from a bunch of gamers to the leaders of a multi-million dollar company.
    Last edited by Pann; 2013-02-14 at 08:40 PM.

  9. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Even without access to the data Blizzard have we can see from Wow Progress that the number of guilds that have cleared HC Sha is extremely low and that even discounting alts less than 150k players (roughly 4% of the player base) have cleared normal Sha compared to just under 470k that have killed the first boss. Somewhere between the beginning and the end of the normal tier over two thirds of the players that have killed the first boss have given up on raiding I don't think we are in any position to say whether Blizzard are happy with the current rate of progress and there is a chance that they may decide the level of difficulty is currently too high and make the next tier easier.

    That said I don't believe that there is any reason to delay the patch for a few thousand raiders.



    This is an interesting point and I get the impression that Blizzard sometimes suffers from and is blinded by a need to be loved and that the management has not made the step up from a bunch of gamers to the leaders of a multi-million dollar company.
    I greatly agree with that last part. It took them SEVEN YEARS to "figure out" that relegating the content they spend the most money making to 5-10%ish of the playerbase was a really bad idea. Thus, LFR was born.

  10. #590
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    People can expect a rational business to focus on their most numerous customers. For some reason, Blizzard focuses on their most skilled customers, even though they are a tiny minority.

    This prejudice on Blizzard's part explains, I think, why there are far more WoW ex-players than WoW players. The game is a giant bait and switch.
    Blizzard are gamers, and they very openly state that they make games they themselves want to play - i.e. they cater to themselves first and foremost. Giving everyone else stuff to do just pays the bills and lets them keep doing it.

    Fair enough, and no one can say they werent warned, and it does work to keep the whole show on the road. Not too sure the Bobby Koticks of the world want it that way or if it's the best approach to such a mass market product. But what do I know? Not a lot.
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  11. #591
    I'm in a guild who is still halfway into normals , not even talking about heroics. We had plenty of roster problems and we just started raiding recently , so completing T14 before the patch is out of the question. BUT , i'm still happy the next patch comes out early , although I probably wont have any FOS's. That's because it will give us even more motivation to push through , we will have something to look forward too , an awesome big new raid and a lot of new content to keep our guys satisfied despite our poor progression.
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  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Even without access to the data Blizzard have we can see from Wow Progress that the number of guilds that have cleared HC Sha is extremely low and that even discounting alts less than 150k players (roughly 4% of the player base) have cleared normal Sha compared to just under 470k that have killed the first boss. Somewhere between the beginning and the end of the normal tier over two thirds of the players that have killed the first boss have given up on raiding I don't think we are in any position to say whether Blizzard are happy with the current rate of progress and there is a chance that they may decide the level of difficulty is currently too high and make the next tier easier.
    With fairness though, why does Sha HC *have* to be cleared for the tier to be considered completed? Yes, I know it's the last boss and whatnot on the hardest setting, but if Blizzard aim their figures around that, then we will be waiting a helluva long time for patches. Also, WoW Progress doesn't show how many people have completed LFR from what I know, and Blizzard has to account for those players as well and how long they should have to wait for content. I am sure some casual players would be utterly thrilled to discover they don't get to try a new raid for 4-5 more months because some players are struggling on HC modes. It's like saying "Hey guys, we were going to release SC WotS this week, but decided to delay it, because people still haven't completed the hardest difficulties on the first game". Not the best analogy I know, but you get the idea.
    Perhaps now, instead of using the bar mark as "WHo has completed the hardest bosses this tier?" and reaching a threshold, maybe they are thinking "Who has seen *all* the bosses this tier?" and adjusting accordingly. I have noticed personally LFR queues have gone up, so perhaps people are bored of those and want to try new things.
    This is the first proper tier we have had for LFR, so it has thrown a lot of different things into the mix, raiders just have to realise the world doesn't revolve around them anymore. This tier patch also brings a LOT more dailies for people and new plot, so Blizzard are catering to far more than just a smallish raid group set now.

  13. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howlrunner View Post
    With fairness though, why does Sha HC *have* to be cleared for the tier to be considered completed? Yes, I know it's the last boss and whatnot on the hardest setting, but if Blizzard aim their figures around that, then we will be waiting a helluva long time for patches. Also, WoW Progress doesn't show how many people have completed LFR from what I know, and Blizzard has to account for those players as well and how long they should have to wait for content. I am sure some casual players would be utterly thrilled to discover they don't get to try a new raid for 4-5 more months because some players are struggling on HC modes. It's like saying "Hey guys, we were going to release SC WotS this week, but decided to delay it, because people still haven't completed the hardest difficulties on the first game". Not the best analogy I know, but you get the idea.
    Perhaps now, instead of using the bar mark as "WHo has completed the hardest bosses this tier?" and reaching a threshold, maybe they are thinking "Who has seen *all* the bosses this tier?" and adjusting accordingly. I have noticed personally LFR queues have gone up, so perhaps people are bored of those and want to try new things.
    This is the first proper tier we have had for LFR, so it has thrown a lot of different things into the mix, raiders just have to realise the world doesn't revolve around them anymore. This tier patch also brings a LOT more dailies for people and new plot, so Blizzard are catering to far more than just a smallish raid group set now.
    It's not just HC sha, it's sha normal as well.

    To analogise it to SC2 - it would be like releasing HoTS before 70% of people had finished wings main campaign on normal.

    As other posters have said, maybe a better solution would have been easier tuning if this was the timeframe they were working off.
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  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthoof View Post
    Those People can't be seroius. Why are there already people complaining about the release of 5.2 in two weeks? The people used to cry about no content the last expansions... I just don't get it. What's wrong with them?
    it wont be in 2 weeks. they've announced that it Wont be on the 26th.
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  15. #595
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    Besides, if tiers are not at least 7-8 months long, you WILL end up with the last tier lasting nearly 1 year again, assuming there are 3 tiers over 21 months (length of shortest expansion, cataclysm).

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It's not just HC sha, it's sha normal as well.

    To analogise it to SC2 - it would be like releasing HoTS before 70% of people had finished wings main campaign on normal.

    As other posters have said, maybe a better solution would have been easier tuning if this was the timeframe they were working off.
    I think it is difficult to tell exactly what is happening with the raiding population at the moment. Personally I think that 5 months plus is too long to be left without anything new and if the majority of raiders cannot clear the content in that time then it points to the content being too difficult. However at present we simply do not know if people are leaving the organised raiding scene because LFR offers a relatively hassle free way to complete the content.

    I think that LFR is a great addition to the game but the rate at which players consume content using LFR is at odds with the rate at which Blizzard releases it and the rate organised raiders complete it. This is an issue that Blizzard really need to get a handle on or they risk losing further subs as LFR people become bored waiting for the next tier to be released.

    The hardcore raid community, also, need to decide what they want it is no good saying that they want content to be difficult and exclusive but then requesting extra time when they find out they are not part of that elite that can clear the content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Besides, if tiers are not at least 7-8 months long, you WILL end up with the last tier lasting nearly 1 year again, assuming there are 3 tiers over 21 months (length of shortest expansion, cataclysm).
    If tiers are 7-8 months long it won't matter how long we have to wait at the end of the expansion as there will be no-one, apart from a few raiders, left to see it.

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthoof View Post
    Those People can't be seroius. Why are there already people complaining about the release of 5.2 in two weeks? The people used to cry about no content the last expansions... I just don't get it. What's wrong with them?
    I don't know what's in the patch.

    I would want it if it reduces visibility and the central role of pandas in the game, if not I simply don't care.

  18. #598
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    my problem with the patch coming so soon is that it makes this pvp season the shortest in wow's history. shit, i know people who have a decent rating who havent even been able to get fully upgraded mal t1 yet, never mind shootign for t2. and with all the massive imbalance and problems still rampant on the ptr with class balance and whatnot in pvp, pushing this patch soo soon is a major mistake and will cost blizzard a ton of subs. they really need to concentrate on fixing thngs that are seriously broken (like severe class imbalance) instead of tryign to invent solutions for problems that really dont exist (like removing t2 and all that bullshit).

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthoof View Post
    Those People can't be seroius. Why are there already people complaining about the release of 5.2 in two weeks? The people used to cry about no content the last expansions... I just don't get it. What's wrong with them?
    they complain because the whole wow thing is bullshit and boring ... so they are right!

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