Wish Blizz would scrap level 90 mage talents :\

[Ehrenpanzer]

The basic complaint with RoP is:

X class can do X dps, while I can only do X dps while Im forced to stand in this circle which I have to constantly refresh or recast with a clunky casting mechanic..

I like the basic concept of RoP, but in a raid setting, especially this tier its very annoying, especially on fights like Spirit Kings with almost constant movement. A simple fix would be to lower the circles life to 30 seconds, make it instant cast and appear directly under the mage

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 11:15 AM ----------

If you can top damage while having lvl 90 talents which are situational and add no damage, thats mean you dont NEED an added damage. With the mage, you HAVE to maintain this damage in order to dps effectively, thats the main difference.

So, again, i'd trade in a heartbeat. Instead of having to place RoP every frickin time I mvde and loosing dps like a madmen because the boss decided to put 4 wind bomb in a row under me (happened yesterday AGAIN) (Also had 5 times the sticky debuff where you have to move for 5 seconds) . This is SO frustrating.
Meanwhile if you are a hunter or a warlock you just don't care about this, talk about QoL.

I don't hate the idea of a static caster or w/e, but this idea + boss RNG > Not fun. Having no control about this is just horrid.

I dont mind being pigeonholed into being a static caster..I DO mind being pigeonholed into being a static caster, then have Blizz decide that every fight is going to be insanely movement heavy

[Polarthief]

Sounds nice, especially if you can cast while moving. That way, your encouraged to stand still, but don't have to.

Or just let it become Sniper Training with a trigger time that works when you stand still for 1s.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 06:39 AM ----------

The basic complaint with RoP is:

X class can do X dps, while I can only do X dps while Im forced to stand in this circle which I have to constantly refresh or recast with a clunky casting mechanic..

I like the basic concept of RoP, but in a raid setting, especially this tier its very annoying, especially on fights like Spirit Kings with almost constant movement. A simple fix would be to lower the circles life to 30 seconds, make it instant cast and appear directly under the mage

Making it instant still uses just as many globals, and if you half the duration, it now becomes the exact same thing as Invo, except you're forced to stand still FOR THE ENTIRE DURATION and not just for the cast.

That is an awful idea and would instantly ruin RoP.

The problem is that RoP needs to be better than Invo (it HAS TO BE) in no-movement fights, otherwise, it's pointless to use for Fire/Frost. When you make it the SAME as Invo on no-movement fights, then Invo is automatically better in EVERY scenario, because it becomes the following:

No movement: Invo = RoP
ANY level of movement from just a tiny bit to absolute clusterfuck: Invo >>>>>>>>>>> RoP

[Obelisk Kai]

Sounds nice, especially if you can cast while moving. That way, your encouraged to stand still, but don't have to.

Well Blizzard wants Rune of Power to reward and encourage Mages to stand still.

How about it becomes an automatic effect, you stand still for anywhere between 4 to 6 seconds and youll drop a rune automatically. Every 4-6 seconds you stand in that rune, the damage you deal ramps up by x%. There is a cap on the number of charges obviously, and if you're out of the rune too long (say 4-6 seconds) it drops and you have to start again.

[Deleted]

Well Blizzard wants Rune of Power to reward and encourage Mages to stand still.

How about it becomes an automatic effect, you stand still for anywhere between 4 to 6 seconds and youll drop a rune. Every 4-6 seconds you stand in that rune, the damage you deal ramps up by x%. There is a cap on the number of charges obviously, and if you're out of the rune too long (say 4-6 seconds) it drops and you have to start again.

Same thing, RNG will determine your dps big time. But better QoL yeah, nice idea .

[Obelisk Kai]

Same thing, RNG will determine your dps big time. But better QoL yeah, nice idea .

Truth is, QOL is all we can argue for because these talents aren't going to be removed. Blizzard desperately wants us to be the static casters of WoW, and that's a fair enough goal. If I want to be really mobile there are other options.

In fact I'd argue that this forum post is rapidly nearing the end of it's usefulness, it's title is an invitation to complain about the talents and simply wish for something better or more amazing that is never going to happen. Might be more constructive to lock or just abandon this topic and begin a new one about how we each improve the level 90 talents, offering feedback/ideas without the complaining so to speak.

[Deleted]

If you can top damage while having lvl 90 talents which are situational and add no damage, thats mean you dont NEED an added damage. With the mage, you HAVE to maintain this damage in order to dps effectively, thats the main difference.

Again: Some classes becomes there dmgmaintainingbuff (horrible word) at a specific lvl per trainer and we get ours at lvl90 per talent. But we get all the utility per lvl while other classes get their per talent. Whats the difference?
All you do here is look only at the lvl90-Talents of other classes which is stupid. You have to look at a class in all aspects.

The problem is that RoP needs to be better than Invo (it HAS TO BE) in no-movement fights, ...

Wait for 5.2. RoP ist better then Invo if u didnt move after the patch.

Same thing, RNG will determine your dps big time. But better QoL yeah, nice idea .

Sometimes RNG hates you, sometimes it loves you. Everytime you have to run out of fire, someone other (which could also be a healer) could stand still. The result is the same. No one single raid looses at a certain boss because the mage has to run 4 times from anything instead of the hunter.

Sideeffect for RoP-Haters: If u dont like RoP on a specific boss dont use it. Ok most are arcane and have to use RoP but at this point u see the problem. As arcane u are forced to take the rune because of a bad implementation. This is the problem. Mana is the point that should be taken out of this talents not the dmgbuff.

[Deleted]

Again: Some classes becomes there dmgmaintainingbuff (horrible word) at a specific lvl per trainer and we get ours at lvl90 per talent. But we get all the utility per lvl while other classes get their per talent. Whats the difference?
All you do here is look only at the lvl90-Talents of other classes which is stupid. You have to look at a class in all aspects.


Wait for 5.2. RoP ist better then Invo if u didnt move after the patch.



Sometimes RNG hates you, sometimes it loves you. Everytime you have to run out of fire, someone other (which could also be a healer) could stand still. The result is the same. No one single raid looses at a certain boss because the mage has to run 4 times from anything instead of the hunter.

Sideeffect for RoP-Haters: If u dont like RoP on a specific boss dont use it. Ok most are arcane and have to use RoP but at this point u see the problem. As arcane u are forced to take the rune because of a bad implementation. This is the problem. Mana is the point that should be taken out of this talents not the dmgbuff.

Trust me, if I could run another thing than RoP, i'd do it.

Just to clarify, I'm playing wow since vanilla, and have played lots of games (fps/mmo). I know RNG is a double edged sword. Believe me.

But what bugs me, is when you don't have control over those talents because of bad design, there's some fights in this tier where you just have to pray. I tried running Invo > Try blade lord, you're evoing for 6 second (yay 6 second doing nothing, fun !), bam, tornado in your face, you have to move, maintain your stacks, and wait for the invo CD to finish, then evo again and praying again.
> Result : ~10+ second doing almost no dps and you don't have any control over this. This is very very frustrating, and this is purely because of bad design. Now, granted, they gave a try about fixing Evo for 5.2, we'll see how it goes, but that was just one example of many many in this tier.

There's some class that have minimum to no effect of having to move due to a boss mechanic, for example hunters, or warlock. This is not a whiny "I want what others have", but why would you give perfect mobility to some class and horrid and frustrating one to others ? This could be possible, but the one with the horrid mobility should have something more to put on the table right ? Maybe not to himself, but for the raid ?
Mage doesnt. It brings cookies that no ones uses anymore, thats all. (and with almost every class having every buffs, we shouldnt worry about raids buffs)

Warlock = No dmg loss when moving, brings healthstones, portals (very usefull for some fights), same dps as arcane mage (as aff), better multi target dps. Why would you bring a mage over a warlock ? You wouldnt.

Yes, bring the player, not the class. But all else being equal, Warlock >>> Mage. And this simply shouldnt happen.

Excuse my rant, had to get this off my chest, maybe there's something useful in there .

[DeLos]

So, yes a few of these can be "handy" in some cases, but they do NOT make you stronger in any conceivable way. All three mage talents, however, appears to have SOME sort of increased damage aspect. How, in a PvE environment, it would make sense to trade any one of the three mage talents for one of the DK talents... I don't know.

You don't get it. If they where a CD that you could use smartly, sure they could be a damage increase. A passive maintenance buff doesn't really increase damage, because we were balanced around it. They actively limit the mage in a very clunky, PITA, manner. I have a DK I raid with as well. I love their talents. Sure, most boss fights you can ignore them. But you aren't ever screwed over by them.

Thats what i mean. U are not saying something against the talents but more against the part with less mobility which is a really other point. We are in this xpac the static caster. Learn it or reroll. Thats the fact. And being this i like. I dont like the changing of Invocation is 5.2. Its about playing a mage good. If u dont like to babysit everything then take incanters and get th 6% more spelldmg overall. U dont really loose that much dmg.

Static caster is fine, but for three problems. First, it is not true. Lets look at warlocks: 100% damage while moving. How about hunters (sure, not technically a caster, but ranged as well): 100% damage while moving. You can't call it a 'static caster expac' when it does not apply to all. And second, wrong way to make a static caster. You want a caster standing still and casting spells? Make their cast time spells do the biggest chunk of damage. They will do everything in their power to make it happen. You don't force them to plop a rune on the ground every time they have to move. And thirdly, every single encounter demands movement. You don't get to just stand still and be a 'static caster' in one spot for the fight.

But lets try an example: Rogues got Slice'n'Dice at a low level. They have to maintain this very important buff. It must be up nearly all the time to do max damage. They have to "waste" Combopoint to activate this buff. Are they crying that Slice'n'Dice is bad or boring or something? No. Its part of their rotation. Its like a dot. He runs for a certain time and when you loose him u have to reapply it. Is someone crying about the bombtier? Really boring talents. U have to press a button every x seconds. Really boring.
We finish our rotation at lvl 90. Without these spells mage would be a really boring and faceroll class. Apply dot, cast filler, wait for proc, hit procbutton. Really deep rotation. With theses Talents we get Deep. With these talents we could separate the best from the good from the bad. We dont have to worry about resources or something. So they gave us a new tool.

Okay, lets look at slice and dice. Imagine this: Make slice and dice fall off every time the rogue has to move. Boss move, new slice and dice. Gotta step out of a puddle, new slice and dice. Run away from AE, new slice and dice. How long do you think it would take for every rogue to be up in arms?

The difference is not that we have a buff to maintain. The difference is in the mechanics to maintain it. Having to complete a full channel every X seconds, and praying that it is not interrupted is not a good mechanic. Having to lay a rune down on the floor every time you have to move is not a good mechanic. Remember how they said that a shaman dropping a totem for a static buff was not interesting and removed it. Well, we got it, only the totems radius is tiny, so MUCH worse.

[Deleted]

Static caster is fine, but for three problems. First, it is not true. Lets look at warlocks: 100% damage while moving. How about hunters (sure, not technically a caster, but ranged as well): 100% damage while moving. You can't call it a 'static caster expac' when it does not apply to all. And second, wrong way to make a static caster. You want a caster standing still and casting spells? Make their cast time spells do the biggest chunk of damage. They will do everything in their power to make it happen. You don't force them to plop a rune on the ground every time they have to move. And thirdly, every single encounter demands movement. You don't get to just stand still and be a 'static caster' in one spot for the fight.

First:You dont read. I said "We are the static caster this xpac." I didnt say "This xpac is about static caster."
Second: All what would happen is that proguild would stack this casters and try to get them enough space to let them make damage. Thats not the inted of Blizz.
Third: Its what i said: Its about skill. U can look at the forum. U find many threads in which people discuss how they can maintain there uptime. Thats good. Thats something u have to do. Thats not stupid boring press button 1 ever and ever and forget the rest. U have to think about mechanis, timing and your group. Thats part of our rotation. Thats our ressourcemanagment. Warriors have Rage to maintain, Healers mana, Hunters focus etc. We dont maintain any ressource. We maintain our buff. Its another word but the result is the same: If u are good u do more dmg.
If u dont like it its not the problem of anyone else. Just take another class.
I dont like Focus on Hunters overall. Its just an personal feeling. I dont open a thread crying for bring back mana. I just play my hunter and shit on Focus. I know i could do more dmg if i really maintain it but its my decision. The result is less dmg but thats the price i pay.

Okay, lets look at slice and dice. Imagine this: Make slice and dice fall off every time the rogue has to move. Boss move, new slice and dice. Gotta step out of a puddle, new slice and dice. Run away from AE, new slice and dice. How long do you think it would take for every rogue to be up in arms?

If u are an bad rogue and dont look at your energy and combopoints (yes S'n'D is more than one button every x sec) u will loose your buff and therefor dont do damage.
S'n'D is not about moving its about energy and CP. RoP/Invo/IW is about moving.
We dont have to think about Energy or CP, so we have to think about moving.

The difference is not that we have a buff to maintain. The difference is in the mechanics to maintain it. Having to complete a full channel every X seconds, and praying that it is not interrupted is not a good mechanic. Having to lay a rune down on the floor every time you have to move is not a good mechanic. Remember how they said that a shaman dropping a totem for a static buff was not interesting and removed it. Well, we got it, only the totems radius is tiny, so MUCH worse.

Pray that it will not be interrupted means you cast it at the wrong time. At nearly any boss u find a window where u can reapply it safe. Thats the skill: Thinking about where u can reapply it safe.
Ok sometimes RNG really hates you thats right. But as said above: Sometimes RNG also hates the other guy.
The point with the rune was addressed above. If u had the choice between all buffs it would be fair. Unfair is that arcane atm is forced to RoP and Fire/Frost are forced to Invo. That will be addressed in 5.2.

[Deleted]

Arcane mage dont manage mana, they just manage movement. Oh, wait.. Mana/Energy is also RNG woops.

PS : On the PTR right now, RoP arcane is still stronger than Invo.

[Fennixx]

Lv 90 talents are dumb. Like many said, they put a restriction on ya w/o such a big reward. Yes, you stay grounded to do SAME DPS as others (in before, Arcane is strong regardless of lv 90 talents).

If 100% uptime on RoP meant always 1st on meters, they would make sense. But it's not and shouldn't be this way (as it would be a hell to balance).

-----
If they were to add depth they could've done a better job. Maybe a new spell on last tier? One for single target (mid-high dmg with added bonus depending on spec), other for AoE (augment for current AoE spells or a new burst AoE CD) and the other for cleave (so you could remove fire's cleave and spread it to other specs).

Or a utility tier? Mass teleport (long cast - 4-6 secs -, player limit, can't be used with PoM), Hourglass (alter time effect to whoever click on it - limited by charges) and Energy well (clicking on it restor x% of primary resource).

Anything ANYTHING would be better.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 02:45 PM ----------

Arcane mage dont manage mana, they just manage movement. Oh, wait.. Mana/Energy is also RNG woops.

PS : On the PTR right now, RoP arcane is still stronger than Invo.

This is so true.

MoP arcane don't have any tools to do more DPS by "burning" mana. We have a resource we can't burn, we have a resource to NOT USE.

[Methusula]

Lv 90 talents are dumb. Like many said, they put a restriction on ya w/o such a big reward. Yes, you stay grounded to do SAME DPS as others (in before, Arcane is strong regardless of lv 90 talents).

If 100% uptime on RoP meant always 1st on meters, they would make sense. But it's not and shouldn't be this way (as it would be a hell to balance).

-----
If they were to add depth they could've done a better job. Maybe a new spell on last tier? One for single target (mid-high dmg with added bonus depending on spec), other for AoE (augment for current AoE spells or a new burst AoE CD) and the other for cleave (so you could remove fire's cleave and spread it to other specs).

Or a utility tier? Mass teleport (long cast - 4-6 secs -, player limit, can't be used with PoM), Hourglass (alter time effect to whoever click on it - limited by charges) and Energy well (clicking on it restor x% of primary resource).

Anything ANYTHING would be better.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 02:45 PM ----------



This is so true.

MoP arcane don't have any tools to do more DPS by "burning" mana. We have a resource we can't burn, we have a resource to NOT USE.

Hourglass would be so badass!

[Deleted]

Arcane mage dont manage mana, they just manage movement. Oh, wait.. Mana/Energy is also RNG woops.

PS : On the PTR right now, RoP arcane is still stronger than Invo.

Someone other answered this before (i dont try to search the posting i think zomgdps was it): Arcane is not about managing mana. U hold it at 100% it and its fine. Thats no managment. Managment would be if u really think about the decision to burn it down and do big dmg now but lesser dmg later or to conserve it to do normal dmg all the time.
The problem as said above: Mana in this talents is the bad idea because Arcane has never the chance to choose like frost/fire because beside the fact of the dmgboost they allways have to look at the mana. That is the bad design.

@PS: If this is so then its bad. I dont look into arcane numbers that much. Thanks for the hint.

[QuizTIC]

I am afraid to post anything like this as people will often take is as a "Look at me! I'm mad and I want everyone to know!" type of post and it's really nothing like that, but I am simply wondering if anyone else feels the same.

I remember when they revamped talents completely, devs said something along the lines of "We're removing "straight dps" abilities because they aren't choices. They're mandatory and boring."



So how did we get to the place we are with level 90 mage talents? They're all straight dps buffs that need constant babysitting. Mage has been my main since '06 and this is the first time I've lost interest completely. I would love a fun, meaningful ability at 90 and not something that simply buffs damage. I could understand if it were a utility spell that also increased damage by a minimal amount (say 5%), but as it is, these spells aren't choices and there's nothing interesting about them. They must be cast on cooldown, ad nauseum. Boring. :\

My thoughts exactly!

[Deleted]

Hourglass would be so badass!

love that !

[DeLos]

Second: All what would happen is that proguild would stack this casters and try to get them enough space to let them make damage. Thats not the inted of Blizz.

I don't think you understood what I said. I did not say make static caster do tons more damage. I meant make the cast times spells much stronger then the instant (internal to the class). Not saying make a caster stronger then others, make his time cast nukes stronger then his instant. Though your comment does bring up the fact that if you want a ranged to be locked down, then they either need more damage then non-locked down ones or the others ranged classes need locked down too. Would hate for proguilds to start stacking mobile casters because they do just as much damage, with less hassle.

Third: Its what i said: Its about skill.

That is actually not really true. Some mechanics require you to move a lot, like for instance grabbing the chi orbs on the platforms during the sha encounter. You can either just tell everyone else they have to pick up your slack so you can maintain up time, or you can just lose time. Not a question of skill. Many, many mechanics are random. Having <insert random bad stuff> appear under your feet will reduce up time. Not a question of skill. Some encounters ask your raid group to move around, and you should stay stacked with them. You can ignore the stacking mechanic and require more healing, or you can lose up time. Those are all effects that impact up time more then any amount of skill will. That is the problem. It is not a question of 'are you doing a good job? It is more of a: 'Are you lucky?' And that is my problem with it.

Pray that it will not be interrupted means you cast it at the wrong time. At nearly any boss u find a window where u can reapply it safe. Thats the skill: Thinking about where u can reapply it safe.

Random fixates never force you to kite? Random puddles never form under you? Not every boss ability has a nice little predictable timer. I agree that playing better will mean more up time then playing bad. However, random variables tend to impact the time more then skill does. That is a bad mechanic. That is the difference between our talents and slice and dice. Some random variables will impact slice and dice up time. But their impact is less then the impact of skill.

[nickseng]

But what bugs me, is when you don't have control over those talents because of bad design, there's some fights in this tier where you just have to pray. I tried running Invo > Try blade lord, you're evoing for 6 second (yay 6 second doing nothing, fun !), bam, tornado in your face, you have to move, maintain your stacks, and wait for the invo CD to finish, then evo again and praying again.
> Result : ~10+ second doing almost no dps and you don't have any control over this. This is very very frustrating, and this is purely because of bad design. Now, granted, they gave a try about fixing Evo for 5.2, we'll see how it goes, but that was just one example of many many in this tier.

As far as I know, there are no randoms boss abilities that are continuous (that is to say, there is always a break when it happens to when it will happen again). What this means in terms of Invocation is that I have to keep track of this random abilities, and simply Invocate right after it happens. Of course, this might mean that I override the buff early, or even go a few seconds without it, but it's much better than being locked out of it for 10 seconds because I have to move.

[LocNess]

I actually think that maybe the 90 talents would work better as just completely new CD's, like RoP would be a 2min CD and increase all damage while in it by x%. They would also buff our base damage up to compensate for the loss, but that way we could play normally and get new toys to play with. I will give it more thought.

[Deleted]

As far as I know, there are no randoms boss abilities that are continuous (that is to say, there is always a break when it happens to when it will happen again). What this means in terms of Invocation is that I have to keep track of this random abilities, and simply Invocate right after it happens. Of course, this might mean that I override the buff early, or even go a few seconds without it, but it's much better than being locked out of it for 10 seconds because I have to move.

There's lots of bosses when you can control the mechanics and there's no "safe moment" to Invo. And if sometimes there is, it either means you'll refresh Invo too soon, or too late.
Anyway, this will be fixed with 5.2 invo, at least thats a good thing.

[Akraen]

I'll even accept if they have Frost Bomb count as a DoT, so I can use the best trinkets with the bomb I want to use.