Modern Feminism - What's the deal?

[Austilias]

So there we go, joint responsibility as is the law. I agree with this.

Are you this dense? If, theoretically, I was on a joint Car insurance scheme with someone, and let them use the car for a period of say...9 months, for a long trek across Europe; I am not responsible for what they do during said 9 months in that car. More to the point, I am powerless to stop them and certainly should not be held to account if they crash it.

Likewise, just because a man has sex with a woman and conceives does not mean there is equal responsibility. She has the final say and the responsibility; not least because it's her body as you love to rightly claim. There's no reason why the man should be held responsible or accountable for what she does with 'her body' or any foetus/foeti within during those 9 months; whether she decides to carry it to term or otherwise, if it is against his wishes. Just as the woman can abort the foetus, keep it, or put it up for adoption, depending on what is for or against her own wishes.

[Mayhem]

People (generally speaking) don't like going to jail.

fun fact: there is an austrian website where inmates are able to rate the quality of their jailtime (just like a hotel) i´m not kidding

[Raiju]

All of that was true circa 1950

In all fairness it's pretty impressive someone from the three kingdoms is able to keep up with ever changing laws for so long before falling a bit behind.

[JOKE]

[Tinykong]

fun fact: there is an austrian website where inmates are able to rate the quality of their jailtime (just like a hotel) i´m not kidding

I'm sure some people would prefer being in jail. Hell, I don't have cable tv but the people who commit crimes in my state get it.

[Zhangfei]

All of that was true circa 1950. Medical science has come a long way since then, and abortions are legal and relatively safe.

But also hugely emotional and charged. I feel you're dismissing cultural and social realities, like you do with the payment issue.

If you're going to equate it to a car accident, then let's say it's like a case where he took a girl out driving, and they hit a tree. She gets a whiplash injury, and there is (in this theoretical, not so in reality, I know) a simple, cheap fix. Or he can pay for 18 years of physiotherapy and treatments.

The allegory is about people "not meaning to" do X, but still responsible for it. It is not comparable to pregnancy. If a woman is driving her car and accidentally hits someone, the point is she's also responsible. Men and women are not treated differently.

What we're saying is that he should be able to offer that simple fix and avoid further responsibility, rather than her being able to demand the longer-term payment because of her decision. You cannot declare that abortion is off the table. That's a choice. And it's HER choice.

It's not off the table at all, the point is it's the woman's body and only she has a right to decide what happens to it. If the man doesn't like the choice, tough titties, because it's her body and her right.

This smacks of light misogyny. Why don't you feel women are capable of standing up for their own rights?

Of course they are, but we're on a board populated by mostly young men. There's not likely an abundance of women around to discuss this, plus it can be overwhelming? I fully support a woman who, in this situation, keeps the baby and the state forces the father to pay for the child.

You cannot simply declare "he had sex, so he agreed to being a father". That's nonsense, today. It simply is not true, in any respect.

No, I say "he had sex, so he knew he could be a father." That's biology. Like "he went driving, he knew he could hit someone" and support insurance and the state's right to extract money for the innocent party.

However, that doesn't change that the threat of imprisonment is a threat of force.

Yes, but it's to people who don't want to do something. If you want to do something, you're not being threatened to do it!

There's no reason why the man should be held responsible or accountable for what she does with 'her body' or any foetus/foeti within during those 9 months

Oh my, we completely agree. It's what happens when the child is born that things change.

[Elim Garak]

You said that you get something out of taxes. You implied you got nothing from having a child in the world. It's not straw man.

Nevertheless I never expanded that "something" to explain what it entails - and you used that to build your strawman.
It's should be pretty obvious to you now, that something means - something that one needs/wants.
By paying taxes people get something that they need/want back.
By paying child support - nope.

The child is SOMETHING he gets, whether he wants it or not. And the child has equal worth to the father, whatever the circumstance.

No it is not. On both accounts.

That's direct force. They have weapons and impose it directly.

We are not discussing kinds of forces here.
Direct/circumstantial, immediate/eventual.
It is all irrelevant.
It is forced.
Even in legal terms. You may not not pay taxes. They will come for you if you don't. And they will violate your bodily freedom in no time.

Who here has paid their taxes with a government worker holding a weapon at their head? Hands up!

Yawn..

Sorry, you're implying people don't ever pay willingly. I pay my taxes willingly because it's the right thing to do.

I do not believe you. It's internet and you are losing an argument. I'm 100% sure that the day government makes it legal to not pay income tax if you do not want to - you will stop paying income tax. You will. Whatever you may believe right now. You will.

[Enkidulgaa]

All of that was true circa 1950. Medical science has come a long way since then, and abortions are legal and relatively safe.

If you're going to equate it to a car accident, then let's say it's like a case where he took a girl out driving, and they hit a tree. She gets a whiplash injury, and there is (in this theoretical, not so in reality, I know) a simple, cheap fix. Or he can pay for 18 years of physiotherapy and treatments.

What we're saying is that he should be able to offer that simple fix and avoid further responsibility, rather than her being able to demand the longer-term payment because of her decision. You cannot declare that abortion is off the table. That's a choice. And it's HER choice.


This smacks of light misogyny. Why don't you feel women are capable of standing up for their own rights?



A child being born is not a consequence of sex in this day and age. You're again returning to '50s era sensibilities. Between birth control and legal abortion, it's a choice whether you have a child or not.

You cannot simply declare "he had sex, so he agreed to being a father". That's nonsense, today. It simply is not true, in any respect.

You could make a case that he consented to having a child if he did not take reasonable precautions. Asking if she's on birth control, and/or using a condom or other prophylactic, for instance. If he neglected all that, maybe he was trying to impregnate her, you could make that argument. If he DID ask if she's on the pill, or DID use physical prophylactics, then he clearly expressed an intent to NOT have children as a result of the act. You can't say he did, when he's deliberately acting to prevent it.

Just a thought experiment: what would happen, if a man bullies a woman to have unprotected sex/rapes her, she conceives a child, and the man claims they used protection?

[Raiju]

Just a thought experiment: what would happen, if a man bullies a woman to have unprotected sex/rapes her, she conceives a child, and the man claims they used protection?

...it's rape?

[Zhangfei]

Nevertheless I never expanded that "something" to explain what it entails - and you used that to build your strawman.
It's should be pretty obvious to you now, that something means - something that one needs/wants.

No it's not obvious. Be clearer.

No it is not. On both accounts.

Yes it is, absolutely. You can "get" cancer, you don't have to want it. And civil rights indicate each citizen is worth the same.

We are not discussing kinds of forces here.

We must have been discussing types of cheese then?

Yawn..

Point proven.

I do not believe you. It's internet and you are losing an argument. I'm 100% sure that the day government makes it legal to not pay income tax if you do not want to - you will stop paying income tax. You will. Whatever you may believe right now. You will.

Believe what you want.

...it's rape?

The point is if the theoretical law you wanted passed, it'd be another "he said/she said" situation. It wouldn't make the situation better, it'd just make pregnancy even more intense and bitter and cause a larger gender divide against women.

[Elim Garak]

Just a thought experiment: what would happen, if a man bullies a woman to have unprotected sex/rapes her, she conceives a child, and the man claims they used protection?

Another thought experiment: a man runs up to some random dude and stabs him with knife 10 times, then claims it was other way around - that random dude ran up at him and jumped on his knife 10 times.

[Raiju]

Another thought experiment: a man runs up to some random dude and stabs him with knife 10 times, then claims it was other way around - that random dude ran up at him and jumped on his knife 10 times.

I feel I'm missing the obvious, lack of stabwounds? Is he a ninja?

[Endus]

But also hugely emotional and charged. I feel you're dismissing cultural and social realities, like you do with the payment issue.

I'm arguing that those cultural factors are, in fact, misogynistic and intended to keep women somewhat subjugated by convincing them that abortion is morally "wrong", by those same groups who pushed to keep it illegal, and lost.

There's nothing wrong with abortion. It's not fun, but neither is a root canal. That doesn't mean you don't get one if it's the right choice. We SHOULD be encouraging women who don't want a child to abort. We have too many kids in the adoption system as it is. And growing up in a family that is struggling financially and was not ready to welcome a child with parental support is no good for anyone involved. Abortion's the better way to go in most cases.

The allegory is about people "not meaning to" do X, but still responsible for it. It is not comparable to pregnancy. If a woman is driving her car and accidentally hits someone, the point is she's also responsible. Men and women are not treated differently.

I understand that. I'm pointing out that, because abortion is a legal and widely available option, there is no necessary responsibility. You're talking of the responsibility to a child, but that child does not exist, and does not have to exist. That's the point.

No child, no responsibility, for either.

It's not off the table at all, the point is it's the woman's body and only she has a right to decide what happens to it. If the man doesn't like the choice, tough titties, because it's her body and her right.

You're not attacking my argument, since I've clearly stated the same. I was pointing out that YOU were ignoring the option of abortion in the way you were phrasing your argument.

No, I say "he had sex, so he knew he could be a father." That's biology.

Not medically true, for decades. Which is the entire point. This is why I pointed out that you're taking abortion off the table, and that that's not a legitimate way to argue this situation.

Sex can get a girl pregnant. Her bearing the child to term is a choice.

The idea that any sex act could result in a child went out the window with the introduction of safe and legal abortion techniques.

[Raiju]

The point is if the theoretical law you wanted passed, it'd be another "he said/she said" situation. It wouldn't make the situation better, it'd just make pregnancy even more intense and bitter and cause a larger gender divide against women.

Except if teh woman agrees it's not rape that wouldn't happen. If the woman tries to push for rape AFTERWARDS it seems pretty weird. I've never heard of a rapist paying child support anyway. Why would the woman even agree to be legally involved with that person in thsi hypothetical?

make an analogy that makes some sense. A rape conviction isn't meant to be (like the other thread unfortunately demonstrates) "I argued with him so I accused him of rape", they're serious and should have stricter punishments to stop that.

[Enkidulgaa]

Another thought experiment: a man runs up to some random dude and stabs him with knife 10 times, then claims it was other way around - that random dude ran up at him and jumped on his knife 10 times.

Your sarcasm is lost on me I'm afraid. What are you trying to say? Your post has nothing to do with mine or the one I quoted, the situation is not even remotely similar

[Raiju]

Your sarcasm is lost on me I'm afraid. What are you trying to say? Your post has nothing to do with mine or the one I quoted, the situation is not even remotely similar

Neither situation applies in teh slightest to the discussion at hand so I at least see some common ground there.

[Endus]

Just a thought experiment: what would happen, if a man bullies a woman to have unprotected sex/rapes her, she conceives a child, and the man claims they used protection?

That just proves he didn't want a kid. It doesn't mean he's not a rapist, nor does it mean she shouldn't get an abortion. If he's in jail for the rape, though, he wouldn't exactly be paying a lot of child support, and honestly, I'm not sure there's a lot of women out there who really want to get a monthly support check from their rapist, even if they choose to have the child.

I may be wrong since I'm not looking it up, but I doubt it's the way that usually plays out, especially since it would mean she'd need to keep her rapist informed as to her home address.

[Raiju]

she'd need to keep her rapist informed as to her home address.

it's a powerplay clearly

[Elim Garak]

No it's not obvious. Be clearer.

I'll parry that with : don't assume your opponent is an idiot.

Yes it is, absolutely. You can "get" cancer, you don't have to want it. And civil rights indicate each citizen is worth the same.

abso-fucking-lutely? Get outta here!
If tax paying gave cancer - taxes would've been illegal.
Civil rights can indicate whatever they want. Each citizen is clearly not worth the same. In absolute numbers that is. "same worth" covers only the "legal" section. That is when there's an issue with human rights or a law - every citizen is worth the same. But in everything else? Please. Even in communism it's not the case.

We must have been discussing types of cheese then?

No we were discussing the fact that everyone gets cheesed for not paying taxes. The type of cheese is irrelevant. So what if it's Mozzarella?

[Tinykong]

No, I say "he had sex, so he knew he could be a father." That's biology. Like "he went driving, he knew he could hit someone" and support insurance and the state's right to extract money for the innocent party.

If both sides had the same obligations and ability to dissolve them, we say "she had sex, so she knew she could get pregnant. She chose to keep it, she accepts to be responsible for her choice."

Yes, but it's to people who don't want to do something. If you want to do something, you're not being threatened to do it!

We're not talking about people who pay child support willingly, we're talking about people who are forced to pay it via garnishment or threat of jail against their wishes.

The bottom line is that society has made these statements acceptable:

"Oh, you got pregnant and you don't want the baby, you can just have an abortion."
"You got her pregnant and don't want the baby or to support her decision to keep it? You better pay up or your going to jail."

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 10:48 PM ----------

That just proves he didn't want a kid. It doesn't mean he's not a rapist, nor does it mean she shouldn't get an abortion. If he's in jail for the rape, though, he wouldn't exactly be paying a lot of child support, and honestly, I'm not sure there's a lot of women out there who really want to get a monthly support check from their rapist, even if they choose to have the child.

I may be wrong since I'm not looking it up, but I doubt it's the way that usually plays out, especially since it would mean she'd need to keep her rapist informed as to her home address.

Unless a friend of mine is lying, child support (in my state anyway) is pretty much handled like escrow. His check is garnished (or if he doesn't get one, he sends the state money) and they send the woman a check.

[Elim Garak]

Your sarcasm is lost on me I'm afraid.

Don't worry, I have plenty left.
But to be in the clear - just stay still and I will find it. Please, tell me on which part of your body did it fall? That will narrow the cavity search area.