Modern Feminism - What's the deal?

[Zhangfei]

Equal opportunity is provided. Equal outcomes are not assured. This is not discriminatory.

It's not equal opportunity. Gender differences are real and supporting the skills one set over the other does not mean the opportunity is "equal."

It's like claiming hiring only men is equal because women can have sex changes. The opportunity is equal, quelle non?

[Deleted]

Your "third viewpoint" is that viewpoint. That both sides have legitimacy in their arguments.

So you're for gender equality yet you don't consider mens rights to have legitimate arguments? That's what I get from your italics.

Those took 1 and 2 into consideration given their requirements for what counted as a year's work. 3 I consider based in sexism and problematic; men are encouraged and taught to be aggressive, women are not. An individual woman can be but as I said before, aggressive deliberation is more inclined to a male viewpoint and patently sexist by default; being paid more for the same job based on empathetic understanding would be equally sexist against men.

Given whose requirements for a years work? By those standards it still wouldn't control for the fact that men are more likely to work longer hours. It also also wouldn't control for the first point, nor does it fully control for the second point.

I consider that discrimination based on societal roles and a leftover from a male-dominated society. It is discrimination. The job and the ability to perform isn't defining their pay. As I've said before, if a woman wants to go for a sales role and can't negotiate, that's a problem with her ability. If she goes for an IT job and gets paid less because - shock horror - a skill not related to computers defines her pay, it's flat out discrimination and we should not be comfortable with this. Ever. Equality should be meaningful. The free market is anti-equality.

And saying "it's how business works" is a cop-out argument. If society is discriminatory, society should change.

Negotiation is how you get the job in the first place. Why are you a better candidate, why should we hire you over the other person, what makes you unique. If you work in sales then you'd better be a damned good negotiator, if you work in any other field you should be able to negotiate.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Equal opportunity is provided. Equal outcomes are not assured. This is not discriminatory.

It isn't equal opprotunity, when the game is skewed towards the advantage of one over the other, not just a little but a lot, that is the very definition of discrimination.




See my whole problem with this Men's Rights thing is that it relys so much on women bashing that in essence it actually commits in general as a movement to encouraging ills, it seeks to remedy.




Honestly, no offense but just like the Nation of Islam, or the KKK, or the Nazi's or the Bloods, or the Crips, or the well any national or religious like movement, it is always about trying to prop up their own message by tearing others down.



Spinning truth with story telling. Almost never is there the total honest enough to own all truth, and move forward from there, see the Men's Rights movement I could almost get behind i really can, I love the idea of humanising men, and taking away this nonsense that we aren't also at times in need of help and encouragement, and for our rights to be recognise TOO, not inspite of, not at the expense of, but to simply say you KNOW, I realise others got a tough go, and while I am my own man, I like to work towards to society that admits we are all human, and while we might be different, our differences don't have to be viewed with so much fear.

[DisposableHero]

It isn't equal opprotunity, when the game is skewed towards the advantage of one over the other, not just a little but a lot, that is the very definition of discrimination.

This assertion requires proof.

[Sorrior]

yes, the modern world where just last month women were allowed to be infantry soldiers. you are missing the point that "different doesnt mean imferior" has only recently become the dominant view in society.

YES DOMINANT VIEW. Even if only recently uts till has become the dominant viewpoint...It takes TIME for the effects of said change to fully kick in. I wish you could understand that.

Given a good oh lets say 10-20 years i'd say you'll be seeing a VERY different world and in 40-50 completely so.

I see it this way i have asbergers and while some of us can adapt and make it some can't. I hope for a future where my kin can live without being pressured into surrednering who they naturally are. When they can be happy and productive in their own way.

However i doubt I will ever experience it firsthand...But i hope that any children i have will or even their childrens children. this SAME EXACT mentality was held by immigrants and if i'm right early feminist. It wasn't what can i get for me but what can i change form y children and their children.

However it also seems modern feminism is more about getting things to change here and NOW for those being activists instead of realizing things can take time and it will be future generations most likely not you who TRULY benefits from it.

[Kasierith]

im not, the celts as a culture went extinct along with their matriarchy, and did not influence modern views on women.

Maybe not, but it was a definite example of a society with strong male and female roles in multiple areas, including combat. The British Celts in particular had a very complex society, and one relatively visible to us due to the presence of the Romans for a brief time. One book in particular, Gwenhwyfar the White Spirit, is an Arthurian legend book that the author based a lot on what we believe life was like at that time in history (though it is an Arthurian legend, so it is a lot of speculation). There were other cultures around the world with distinctly different views on women: the Phoenecians are a decent example, another strong one surprisingly were the Steepe nomads in Eurasia. Native American cultures had a separate but balanced view on gender equality for the most part, although their views were fairly diverse overall. Mycenean and Minoan societies in Greece. Pre-Islamic Egyptians and Persians as well (think of who probably the most famous ancient queen was), and Egypt is sometimes seen as the first country to actively advocate gender equality.

[Sorrior]

It isn't equal opprotunity, when the game is skewed towards the advantage of one over the other, not just a little but a lot, that is the very definition of discrimination.

Like child custody for men?

Like say divorce rates?

Like modern employment rates int hose under 30?

Like even high school and college graduation for those under 30?

Sorry bucko times are a changingin..Deal with it.

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 07:05 PM ----------

It's not equal opportunity. Gender differences are real and supporting the skills one set over the other does not mean the opportunity is "equal."

It's like claiming hiring only men is equal because women can have sex changes. The opportunity is equal, quelle non?

Oh gods we're not all identical clones someone call the equality police!

Seriously we HAVE differences get over it...Equality would be best served by undoing as many factors as we can while ACCEPTING that differences exist and WILL effect something and lead them to be unfair in some cases. In the small picture yeah men have SOME things better but so do women.

I'm really getting a "please sir can i have some more" mentality from modern feminists...

The founders of your movement would be AMAZED at what has happened literally blown away at how much things have improved..But it's not good enough and may NEVER be since you guys can't seem to accept that BIOLOGY NOT JUST SOCIETY play a role in these things.

[Cybran]

women were only used to fight as a last resort, not because of their "value", but because they were viewed as inferior.
you even said yourself, men were dominant "because of their strength".

They didn't fight for 2 reasons. Physical disadvantages and their ability to produce the next generation of serfs. They had value, just no the same as men. The problem with feminism is that for them different means inferior and equal must mean absolutely the same (except when it comes to legal abortion)

And yes. Women warriors were a last resort. Not because they couldn't perform, but because there was no need to expose them ti danger. If men considered women inferior why didn't they just use them as smoked meat in the front line? I mean, that is your whole point? "Women were chattel", but their "owners" died in battles instead?

[DisposableHero]

Like child custody for men?

Like say divorce rates?

Like modern employment rates int hose under 30?

Like even high school and college graduation for those under 30?

Sorry bucko times are a changingin..Deal with it.

This is the wrong way to approach the argument. No discrimination ever justified an unrelated discrimination. Separate issues are independent of one another and should be debated on their own merits. The assertion that modern hiring practices are discriminatory in favor of men is unproven, and those claiming it is a reality should find themselves under the burden of proof. By likening their perceptions of an injustice to other injustices, you lend their claim any credibility you have established for your own claims, and enable them to skirt the burden of proof.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Like child custody for men?

Like say divorce rates?

Like modern employment rates int hose under 30?

Like even high school and college graduation for those under 30?



Sorry bucko times are a changingin..Deal with it.

They haven't changed all that much, Child custody useally goes to the parent mostly, responsibly for taking care of the child in a physical sense, as in stay at home, wanna take a wild stab at who that is?


Divorce Rates? Yes guy gets married, doesn't have to physically be accountable for the child on monitarily which he should, and that is somehow sexist because? Two people who obviously made a mistake should have their pain shared absoulutly equally, except for the fact that most men work while women has stayed home. yes times changed, but this is still a more likely situation that the other way around.




Modern Employment Rates in houses under 30? We talking about employed at McDonalds, Walmart, or Starbuck, or are we talking like a Career where they get full benifets. Men greatly outnumber women when it comes to professional careers and upper management positions.


I have no problem dealing with reality, but I think this pile on attitude you have, towards "The system" is greatly overstated.

[Sorrior]

This is the wrong way to approach the argument. No discrimination ever justified an unrelated discrimination. Separate issues are independent of one another and should be debated on their own merits. The assertion that modern hiring practices are discriminatory in favor of men is unproven, and those claiming it is a reality should find themselves under the burden of proof. By likening their perceptions of an injustice to other injustices, you lend their claim any credibility you have established for your own claims, and enable them to skirt the burden of proof.

Sorry i'm not some god of non verbal communication like you. But my point still stands and TBH people like him WON;T change..I can name 2-4 people on this forum(but i won't and most probably know who i mean anyways) who ask for proff never give any or when they do and it's proven wrong just wave everyone else off...Posters like mallsecurity HAVE been asked for proof but refuse to provide it. Thus my comments...Plus i'm lacking food and am not at my most stable right now.


Anyways my point is still valid even if it doesn't meet with your high criteria for perfect posting/debating eticutte.

Though TBH when dealing with some posters here i feel a good smashing over the head with a flail of facts is the ONLY way to POSSIBLE get them to see reason...But even then it's doubtful.

[Doctor Amadeus]

This assertion requires proof.

No, they don't and this isn't an academic arena, but my assertion is based on real life observation, which in some cases is more important than some turned out statistic useally met with " Well they didn't do this study right" or " it is missing this piece of information"

[Sorrior]

They haven't changed all that much, Child custody useally goes to the parent mostly, responsibly for taking care of the child in a physical sense, as in stay at home, wanna take a wild stab at who that is?


Divorce Rates? Yes guy gets married, doesn't have to physically be accountable for the child on monitarily which he should, and that is somehow sexist because? Two people who obviously made a mistake should have their pain shared absoulutly equally, except for the fact that most men work while women has stayed home. yes times changed, but this is still a more likely situation that the other way around.




Modern Employment Rates in houses under 30? We talking about employed at McDonalds, Walmart, or Starbuck, or are we talking like a Career where they get full benifets. Men greatly outnumber women when it comes to professional careers and upper management positions.


I have no problem dealing with reality, but I think this pile on attitude you have, towards "The system" is greatly overstated.

No by and large courts find in favor ofw omen do to their b ing viewed as the better care giver.

No as in more women file for and get divorces then men and for even semi ludicrous reasons while simultaneously having men pay alimony..I did NOT bring up child support. Oh and yes women CAN pa alimony but it is an exception to the rule.

In general women under the age of 30 are getting higher degrees and better jobs then their male counterparts.

Again man times be a changin and you need to see that.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Sorry i'm not some god of non verbal communication like you. But my point still stands and TBH people like him WON;T change..I can name 2-4 people on this forum(but i won't and most probably know who i mean anyways) who ask for proff never give any or when they do and it's proven wrong just wave everyone else off...Posters like mallsecurity HAVE been asked for proof but refuse to provide it. Thus my comments...Plus i'm lacking food and am not at my most stable right now.


Anyways my point is still valid even if it doesn't meet with your high criteria for perfect posting/debating eticutte.

Though TBH when dealing with some posters here i feel a good smashing over the head with a flail of facts is the ONLY way to POSSIBLE get them to see reason...But even then it's doubtful.

Sorrior


Since I have seen you post, there has never been a stitch of fact, i can say i personally ever seen you post. Most of what i see you post is simply your opinion, not based on any logical line of reasoning.

[Sorrior]

No, they don't and this isn't an academic arena, but my assertion is based on real life observation, which in some cases is more important than some turned out statistic useally met with " Well they didn't do this study right" or " it is missing this piece of information"

Ok in my experiences IRL. More women get better jobs, women have a FAR easier time in school, more men suffer from say a divorce then women do.

If you want to pull personal experiences i can too but they aren't the best way to go.

[Doctor Amadeus]

No by and large courts find in favor ofw omen do to their b ing viewed as the better care giver.

No as in more women file for and get divorces then men and for even semi ludicrous reasons while simultaneously having men pay alimony..I did NOT bring up child support. Oh and yes women CAN pa alimony but it is an exception to the rule.

In general women under the age of 30 are getting higher degrees and better jobs then their male counterparts.

Again man times be a changin and you need to see that.

Courts find in favor of who is the live in parent best capable of providing parental support, Stay at home Mom vs a Dad who works a full boat, and most of the time unless there some outstanding condition, custody is useally shared.


Women filing for divorce more than men, assuming that is correct, has zero to do with motive for the divorce any more than it does the marriage to suggest otherwise, imo says that you are trying to prop up men as the victims when they say I do. Nobody is forced to get married by a shot gun, and as for Alimony is one of those things that are awarded based on the conditions of the marriage, meaning was the wife a stay at home mother, was that their arrangement, what were the grounds for the divorce.



What kind of jobs, where, how much are they getting paid, working in what industry, see there are specifics, I am not asking YOU for satistics but You could add a little volume, to your statement.





Things are changing, this is the only thing i will agree with, but for the better or worse, is the question.

[DisposableHero]

No, they don't and this isn't an academic arena, but my assertion is based on real life observation, which in some cases is more important than some turned out statistic useally met with " Well they didn't do this study right" or " it is missing this piece of information"

Your observation is not proof on any appreciable scale. There is no debate to be had about if discrimination is right or wrong (at least not with me) it is clearly wrong. The landscape of the discussion is then quite obviously about if the discrimination exists. You claim it does so I ask what proof you have. Since you have none, I think we are safe to leave it at that.

Courts find in favor of who is the live in parent best capable of providing parental support, Stay at home Mom vs a Dad who works a full boat, and most of the time unless there some outstanding condition, custody is useally shared.

This is really a deeply flawed practice at its core, regardless of the genders in each role. Do we really believe that parents who work full time to support their families are so deficient at caring for their children?

[starlord]

Maybe not, but it was a definite example of a society with strong male and female roles in multiple areas, including combat. The British Celts in particular had a very complex society, and one relatively visible to us due to the presence of the Romans for a brief time. One book in particular, Gwenhwyfar the White Spirit, is an Arthurian legend book that the author based a lot on what we believe life was like at that time in history (though it is an Arthurian legend, so it is a lot of speculation). There were other cultures around the world with distinctly different views on women: the Phoenecians are a decent example, another strong one surprisingly were the Steepe nomads in Eurasia. Native American cultures had a separate but balanced view on gender equality for the most part, although their views were fairly diverse overall. Mycenean and Minoan societies in Greece. Pre-Islamic Egyptians and Persians as well (think of who probably the most famous ancient queen was), and Egypt is sometimes seen as the first country to actively advocate gender equality.

thats well and good, but ive been talking about views in america and most western culture.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Ok in my experiences IRL. More women get better jobs, women have a FAR easier time in school, more men suffer from say a divorce then women do.

If you want to pull personal experiences i can too but they aren't the best way to go.

Well, i am not saying that isnt the case, but I would wonder about the specifics as to why the men are getting divorced, or even married in the first place, as for women getting better just and having an easier time in school, I guess as i said it would depend on the school and industry.


Because if we are talking about engineering and tech jobs, i would like to see those numbers.

[Sorrior]

Sorrior


Since I have seen you post, there has never been a stitch of fact, i can say i personally ever seen you post. Most of what i see you post is simply your opinion, not based on any logical line of reasoning.

And i can say that what YOU have posted has no evidence behind it..I SUCK at online researching but others HAVE posted EVERYTHING you ask for AND more.

You just handwave and dismiss it..

Also so I require large amounts of statistical information yet you have OUTRIGHT sadi RL observations beat it..Hmmmmm i wonder can we call that a double standard..Because i'm pretty sure we can.

I have seen and heard from good friends everything i have mentioned....You have seen and heard things as well but obviously different things..Thus why personal experience is a moot point.

HOWEVER alot of people HAVE posted what you ask..And you just handwave them saying personal experience matters most...except it seems when it doesn't suit your tastes or isn't yours...

This reminds me of a story a friend once told m of a psychologist who believes dreams aren't real because he has never dreamed..If he hasn't/can't experience it it must not be real/true. Now other then this he is VERY intelligent...But your way of seeing things seems to follow this viewpoint. "My experiences trumps others and research be damned"

So YOU provide valid well researched AND that it has taken all vairables into account and then i'll agree with you...However you refuse to/can't do that i'm guessing.

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 07:28 PM ----------

Well, i am not saying that isnt the case, but I would wonder about the specifics as to why the men are getting divorced, or even married in the first place, as for women getting better just and having an easier time in school, I guess as i said it would depend on the school and industry.


Because if we are talking about engineering and tech jobs, i would like to see those numbers.

Engineering and etch is the exception to the general rule..In ALL other fields women are ahead.