Page 21 of 29 FirstFirst ...
11
19
20
21
22
23
... LastLast
  1. #401
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    4,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    What percentage of those people got to where they are without their parents footing their education expenses, or giving them seed money to start a business?
    Precisely, which was predicated on the money that their earlier generation saved through lower healthcare costs, higher education, and higher real wages of the time, which gave their grand-parents more money to invest in single-family homes and a robust pension plan, which translated into higher inheritance value.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Costs don't necessarily go up.

    The issue is that you aren't including shareholder dividends and CEO salaries as "costs" (and they are), and you're not acknowledging that the entity which primarily sets prices is the market, not the producer, in a capitalist economy.

    Profits go down when costs go up. Not the same thing.
    Those are costs. When Costs exceed profits you don't exist anymore. You need a certain amount of profits or no more business, no more jobs. I guess you think that business should only break even or lose money. The producer must factor expense inorder to set price. If you don't adjust for added expenses, or can't, then you grow slower, or even go out of business entirerly. Slower economy.

  3. #403
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Indiana, US
    Posts
    11,278
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    What part of 'economic masturbation' did you miss? Furthermore, I don't have the capital available, and though I could acquire it I wouldn't waste it on the stock market.
    So you don't want the money?

    Also, you can start playing the stock market with very little initial investment. Heck, everyone should at least be paying in to a mutual fund every month. My $50 a month basically buys me financial security. And you'd be surprised at the growth rate of low-risk investments.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Costs don't necessarily go up.

    The issue is that you aren't including shareholder dividends and CEO salaries as "costs" (and they are), and you're not acknowledging that the entity which primarily sets prices is the market, not the producer, in a capitalist economy.

    Profits go down when costs go up. Not the same thing.
    It is combination of the supply side and the demand side that sets the price of a product
    in your fail economic theory if it is only the demand side that sets the price then the demand side could set the price cheaper then what it could be produced at and no business can survive selling its product cheaper then what it can be produced at

  5. #405
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Emerald City
    Posts
    17,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    So you don't want the money?

    Also, you can start playing the stock market with very little initial investment. Heck, everyone should at least be paying in to a mutual fund every month. My $50 a month basically buys me financial security. And you'd be surprised at the growth rate of low-risk investments.
    From derivative speculation? No, I wouldn't.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    From derivative speculation? No, I wouldn't.
    Some people don't care where their money comes from, or who had to suffer/lose for them to earn it.

    I'm glad not everyone is like that.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because most businesses can make up the difference elsewhere, like reducing CEO compensation and shareholder dividends. That reduces the running costs to offset the increases due to wage hikes.

    Your argument seems to be that no company can ever offer employees a wage increase without increasing the prices on their products.
    And you seem to think that every business is some sort of multibillion mega corporation with high paid CEOs, Shareholders, and dividens, that have MILLIONS in profits that they can just give away. I hate to inform you, most businesses are not that.

  8. #408
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    4,579
    Quote Originally Posted by HankIV View Post
    Those are costs. When Costs exceed profits you don't exist anymore. You need a certain amount of profits or no more business, no more jobs. I guess you think that business should only break even or lose money. The producer must factor expense inorder to set price. If you don't adjust for added expenses, or can't, then you grow slower, or even go out of business entirerly. Slower economy.
    The only thing that grows the economy is aggregate DEMAND. Nothing more, nothing less. In order to increase aggregate demand is to ensure the vast majority of the workforce has disposable income. This is why the post-war stimulus programs (GI Bill, medicare, welfare programs) drastically changed the economic landscape, because it gave millions of workers the ability to create the middle class, i.e., homes, cars, consumer products, pension plans, and higher education.

  9. #409
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Emerald City
    Posts
    17,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Some people don't care where their money comes from, or who had to suffer/lose for them to earn it.

    I'm glad not everyone is like that.
    Of course not. I consider it equivocable to bombing a bus station for a million dollars; the damage it does to the economy and society is reprehensible, and I couldn't stomach it.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by HankIV View Post
    Those are costs. When Costs exceed profits you don't exist anymore. You need a certain amount of profits or no more business, no more jobs. I guess you think that business should only break even or lose money. The producer must factor expense inorder to set price. If you don't adjust for added expenses, or can't, then you grow slower, or even go out of business entirerly. Slower economy.
    You're saying that if your costs are the same as your profits that you won't exist in business? Or that when your costs exceed them, there's no more business?

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 07:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    So you don't want the money?

    Also, you can start playing the stock market with very little initial investment. Heck, everyone should at least be paying in to a mutual fund every month. My $50 a month basically buys me financial security. And you'd be surprised at the growth rate of low-risk investments.
    who said it was easy money? It's gambling money.

  11. #411
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    22,586
    Quote Originally Posted by HankIV View Post
    Those are costs. When Costs exceed profits you don't exist anymore. You need a certain amount of profits or no more business, no more jobs. I guess you think that business should only break even or lose money. The producer must factor expense inorder to set price. If you don't adjust for added expenses, or can't, then you grow slower, or even go out of business entirerly. Slower economy.
    If companies were running on profit-thin margins, wealth inequality would be minimal, rather than at historic highs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    It is combination of the supply side and the demand side that sets the price of a product
    in your fail economic theory if it is only the demand side that sets the price then the demand side could set the price cheaper then what it could be produced at and no business can survive selling its product cheaper then what it can be produced at
    That isn't how prices are set, at all. Prices are not set based on cost of production. Cost of production determines the minimum you can charge and stay in business. That's it. Price is determined by what the market is willing to pay for it, and finding the balance between high price and maximizing sales. What the market is willing to pay, and how much, those are determined by those providing the demand.

    If McDonalds started charging $30 for a Big Mac tomorrow, their sales would plummet, because they can't charge that much, the market won't accept it.

    Yes, the market puts the price on some things at below cost. What this means is that the company fails. Because their product isn't worth what it costs to produce. That's how the system works.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    The only thing that grows the economy is aggregate DEMAND. Nothing more, nothing less. In order to increase aggregate demand is to ensure the vast majority of the workforce has disposable income..
    what you failed to account for is where did the demand side get the disposable income did they create it or was it taken from one and given to another
    If it was taken from one and given to another it isn't growth it is redistribution
    If i take 10 dollars from a store owner and give it to a customer to spend in his store did the owner make any money?

  13. #413
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Waterloo, ON
    Posts
    22,586
    Quote Originally Posted by HankIV View Post
    And you seem to think that every business is some sort of multibillion mega corporation with high paid CEOs, Shareholders, and dividens, that have MILLIONS in profits that they can just give away. I hate to inform you, most businesses are not that.
    I fail to see how that's relevant. Let's say there's a guy that runs a sandwich shop. He's open from 10am to 10pm, with two employees at a time at minimum wage. He manages the shop himself. Increasing minimum wage by $1/hour means his weekly costs go up $168/week.

    That's not a huge change. It works out to making about 9 grand less a year. If that's the margin between success and failure for his shop, he was on the edge of collapse anyway.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    You're saying that if your costs are the same as your profits that you won't exist in business? Or that when your costs exceed them, there's no more business?[COLOR="red"]
    If you can not make a profit, you breakeven, you will eventually lose out to competition that is profitable. You may think that you would sell more at breakeven since your product would be cheaper. But you can't do anything to grow the company. You eventually die.

  15. #415
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Emerald City
    Posts
    17,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    what you failed to account for is where did the demand side get the disposable income did they create it or was it taken from one and given to another
    If it was taken from one and given to another it isn't growth it is redistribution
    If i take 10 dollars from a store owner and give it to a customer to spend in his store did the owner make any money?
    What part of 'it doesn't matter where the money comes from' don't you understand? High aggregate demand is a positive factor of economic growth, period.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  16. #416
    In order to increase aggregate demand is to ensure the vast majority of the workforce has disposable income..
    Those making min. wage are not the vast majority of the work force. Maybe 1%? maybe?

  17. #417
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Emerald City
    Posts
    17,956
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSageCorban View Post
    Those making min. wage are not the vast majority of the work force. Maybe 1%? maybe?
    It's about 4% that earn at or less than minimum wage; however, considering that minimum wage is primarily a humanitarian measure increasing it is acceptable; the economic benefits of it are just a side bonus.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  18. #418
    The thing that I think is the problem is that the GoP advocating for less spunding and less government just kind of gloss over the fact that when corporations pay their employees $7 an hour it's the government that is paying the other half of the employees livlihoods. (foodstamps/healthcare/HEAP ect) It's tough living on minimum wage for a family with that government aid. But without it, it would be impossible and the pressure on corporations to pay more would be enormous. Yet, making them pay more with a minimum wage doesn't help either.

    The issue there is corporations have limitless nobs they can turn to react and circumvent actions taken by the government that try to stymie their singular focus of screwing over the average American employee. (in this case, they would simply raise the cost of all their products to pass the cost onto consumers, they would never absorb the loss themselves to better the lives of those helping to make them successful) There really isn't anything any of us can do to stop them now.

    Try to raise the minimum wage, they raise prices. Try to make them insure their employees, they adopt a stance of only hiring veterans with cheaper Tricare to both dodge a bullet as well as championing a false banner of patrotism. Try to make a regulation to stop abuse and they call in favors with politicans on their campaign donation teat to make favorable changes or introduce loop holes to exploit. Job offers shitty pay, just go elsewhere! Except for that "we here at XYZ corp offer a competitive wage" roughly translates into we pay the same shitty wage as everyone else. There's no where to go when all get on board the same game plan.They now hold all the cards and there is nothing more we can do but bend over and take it.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Hastings95 View Post
    Indeed it is, and I'm really liking his words on education, science, technology, and energy.
    I've rarely ever disagreed with what Obama's said.

    I've many times disagreed with what he's done.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  20. #420
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Indiana, US
    Posts
    11,278
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    who said it was easy money? It's gambling money.
    I'm seeing a lot of hate against people playing the stock market in here, but without those investors most businesses would never get out of the concept stage.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •