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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuin View Post
    That i have missed, where did you see that?
    Mastery bubbles bursting to a person within a huge 6 yard radius for half the healing.
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Mastery bubbles bursting to a person within a huge 6 yard radius for half the healing.
    Ah that. well i wouldnt say 6y are that big in the end. And since the bubbles always spawn near a ally not on them. And alot of fights now oyu move around all the time so i still can see alot of the healing not been used from it.

    imo our mastery should increae healing done via eminance (statue) and the healing done by the soothing mist from statue. Would make it good for both mist/fistweavng.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by sakk View Post
    Just lets hope the 2% mana return on TP is real and not some sort of dream they talked about

    Because ATM, with the jab increased cost BUT the 1% mana return on TP, mana managment is JUST IMPOSSIBLE on ptr

    We need lots of changes ( chi generation on Soothing, news chi dumper at distance, 40 yds range on eminence) but let's already see if they actually respect what GC talked about a few days ago
    Yeah, I'm still confused because there is still no new PTR build with the 3-4 different changes GC posted about and he hasn't said anything further on the matter (preferring to spend his time on soothing the worries of a spec that's been OP on and off for 5 years). Supposedly these changes are in some internal build, but we can't really give any kind of meaningful feedback except speculation and theorycrafting when they're not on the actual PTR, and we've only got 2 weeks left.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Really? In the exact same thread where I just got done with a tirade about not posting things as facts with no evidence whatsoever? Please, stop, I've had to go over that far too many times in this exact forum, but this was my most detailed coverage of it. It's a comparison with Chi Brew, but Power Strikes is rarely, if ever as useful as Chi Brew is unless you use the CD on it within 1 or 2 seconds of it being up without fail. Your definition of "a lot" isn't even a 10% difference between the talents.

    And it was 11th, among monks, with dates after the 5.1 nerfs (which amounted to a near-40% nerf on that specific fight between mana increases and throughput decreases). My point was that there are very few Mistweavers in the world that I would be willing to take suggestions on their word alone, and almost none of them even look at this forum, let alone post here.

    This has reminded me though that with the Jab nerfs, Chi changes, and Tiger Palm's mana restore, I'll have to do the math all over again on CB vs Ascension... fun times.
    Haha it's funny because you're relying on logs as some sort of authoritative backing for you doing things "the correct way"...and then telling someone with better logs that you're doing it right and have nothing to learn. (Seeing as my logs are far from perfect, and they're above yours, pretty sure we both have room to learn.) [My monks name is Astråios.]

    Further, I wasn't even talking specifically to you. I was talking with Firstly: the people who said that SCK wouldn't ever be used in 10m, and Second: my second paragraph was to Zonde who spoke about the best times for use being (what I interpreted as) after crushes, and I clarified what I thought was the best time.

    And finally, I fail to see how in a thread about nerfing jab, talking about it's potential replacements is off topic. Affiniti made it pretty evident that stacking spirit and using SCK as a chi generator gave similar results to using jab earlier. So until they nerf SCK, I don't see this patch as being particularly bad for those MW like ourselves who are extremely well geared (esp. with increase in spirit brought by a new tier), though I do see it being a problem for those just starting.

    On the topic of Mastery: Range increase seems minimal, all testing I participated in (which was only 10m, but still) showed it not moving positions relative to any other spells, nor gaining any significant magnitude comparing to before. So still an essentially worthless stat, at least on gear.
    Last edited by Astraios; 2013-02-18 at 07:04 PM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Yeah, I'm still confused because there is still no new PTR build with the 3-4 different changes GC posted about and he hasn't said anything further on the matter (preferring to spend his time on soothing the worries of a spec that's been OP on and off for 5 years). Supposedly these changes are in some internal build, but we can't really give any kind of meaningful feedback except speculation and theorycrafting when they're not on the actual PTR, and we've only got 2 weeks left.
    yea im pretty worried too much is changing from their builds to ours. specially with the assumed short time we have left with the release looming.

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Haha it's funny because you're relying on logs as some sort of authoritative backing for you doing things "the correct way"...and then telling someone with better logs that you're doing it right and have nothing to learn. (Seeing as my logs are far from perfect, and they're above yours, pretty sure we both have room to learn.) [My monks name is Astråios.]

    On the topic of Mastery: Range increase seems minimal, all testing I participated in (which was only 10m, but still) showed it not moving positions relative to any other spells, nor gaining any significant magnitude comparing to before. So still an essentially worthless stat, at least on gear.
    pretty sure he was talking about mana gains in terms of the ps to asc comments, and not so much that anyone is wrong, just they are small enough to that it doesnt matter what u use in the long run just what ur comfortable using. dont think it was meant as an attack on you. both of you are pretty knowledgeable about the class and have offer insight to the class.

    as for the mastery changes.......i felt no noticeable difference when i was doing the lfr. sometimes they would manage to burst with people near and other times they just sat there un used as normal. just seems like more of a bonus then an actual worth while change.
    Last edited by todzilla85; 2013-02-18 at 07:19 PM.

  6. #206
    Since MoP launched healing monks have been two strong, you had it coming.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaNoob2 View Post
    Since MoP launched healing monks have been two strong, you had it coming.
    Hmm care to explain how? You seen disc priest and palas?

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Haha it's funny because you're relying on logs as some sort of authoritative backing for you doing things "the correct way"...and then telling someone with better logs that you're doing it right and have nothing to learn. (Seeing as my logs are far from perfect, and they're above yours, pretty sure we both have room to learn.) [My monks name is Astråios.]
    Except that on my latest kill SCK accounted for as little of my healing as it did in your ranking (yours was only 2.3%). Am I supposed to take something you say that doesn't match what you're actually doing? Zonde's math checks out, I should probably use it to burn more mana as it is slightly more HPS, but the logs themselves show that high Spirit/low HPM doesn't typically do as well as lower spirit/high HPM. You're one of the few people that I would look at your logs and try to learn from them, but I wouldn't take what you say on this forum at face value because when it comes to theorycrafting, you don't often make much sense. The same goes for Affiniti, he's really good at what he does and sometimes gets better results from what he's doing, but I've never seen anything making it "pretty clear" that High Spirit/low HPM is better than low Spirit/High HPM.

    I don't really trust what most people say on this forum because there's often no (correct) math behind it or no logs to show it. I spent 3 months trying to hammer in the factual differences between Chi Brew and Ascension and there are still people that cite some other number that has no factual basis behind it. I have a hard time believing the notion that sacrificing throughput stats so that we can just spam our highest HPS spells all the time is really gets superior results from playing more carefully, and until I start underperforming in my raid or compared to other Mistweavers in the world, or see some actual evidence to support it, I'm not going to adopt that. I will carefully listen to and analyze when higher levels players suggest something, maybe go look for my own evidence as to whether or not it holds true, but there's no one on this entire forum that I think is good enough to say "I'm 16/16 and I do X so you should to because that's the right way to do it because I said so" without at least something to back it up.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Haha it's funny because you're relying on logs as some sort of authoritative backing for you doing things "the correct way"...and then telling someone with better logs that you're doing it right and have nothing to learn. (Seeing as my logs are far from perfect, and they're above yours, pretty sure we both have room to learn.) [My monks name is Astråios.]

    Further, I wasn't even talking specifically to you. I was talking with Firstly: the people who said that SCK wouldn't ever be used in 10m, and Second: my second paragraph was to Zonde who spoke about the best times for use being (what I interpreted as) after crushes, and I clarified what I thought was the best time.

    And finally, I fail to see how in a thread about nerfing jab, talking about it's potential replacements is off topic. Affiniti made it pretty evident that stacking spirit and using SCK as a chi generator gave similar results to using jab earlier. So until they nerf SCK, I don't see this patch as being particularly bad for those MW like ourselves who are extremely well geared (esp. with increase in spirit brought by a new tier), though I do see it being a problem for those just starting.
    Cmon... lets not go down that path. You misunderstood what he said (although it sounded a bit elitist), he simply meant to say that only some players can make claims about the spec without having to prove it since their status of being in a high progression guild is enough to back it i.e. you agreed with what Affiniti said even though he didn't include some maths to show it.

    Also, I was just giving an example, because I find the most effective way to heal after a crush is snipe uplifting with a good TfT used some seconds before hand. :P

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by zonde View Post
    Cmon... lets not go down that path. You misunderstood what he said (although it sounded a bit elitist), he simply meant to say that only some players can make claims about the spec without having to prove it since their status of being in a high progression guild is enough to back it i.e. you agreed with what Affiniti said even though he didn't include some maths to show it.

    Also, I was just giving an example, because I find the most effective way to heal after a crush is snipe uplifting with a good TfT used some seconds before hand. :P
    Well hold on a second here, I never stated SCK was a viable alternative with Spirit stacking, I stated that we would simply be forced into stacking more spirit to continue using jab as a primary source. SCK is effective when it doesn't overheal, but in most situations SCK SCK Uplift would be too slow to effectively snipe during bursts. Ideally JAB JAB UPLIFT during max-RM uptime (within TFT timers) is the best way to go, whilst using slower healing outside of those periods if you are aiming at maximising our potential burst healing. I never stated that SCK was a viable alternative to jab jab uplift.

    Let's not get ahead of ourselves and say others stated something without being able to quote it directly. I never intentionally stated or hinted at SCK SCK Uplift being a viable alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The same goes for Affiniti, he's really good at what he does and sometimes gets better results from what he's doing, but I've never seen anything making it "pretty clear" that High Spirit/low HPM is better than low Spirit/High HPM.
    Truthfully there is no "proper" answer in this situation. There are too many variables to account for. Raid setting, difficulty, per boss, how many shaman do you have? How much healing is your other healers doing. Are you looking at gearing for sustainability, or high burst periods with downtime because it favors your playstyle? There truthfully isn't a blanket "THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT. DO IT THIS WAY OR YOU ARE WRONG AND THEREFORE BAD AT THE GAME" - anyone who thinks this is clearly wrong. There's no point in trying to argue one way over the other. What may produce results in my situation may not always work in other situations. Welcome to healing Meters aren't everything. Top ranking on healing means jack shit. If you care about meters and log rankings, I can point you to plenty of dps resources so you aren't a hindrance to your healing team
    Last edited by Affiniti; 2013-02-19 at 01:07 AM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Affiniti View Post
    Well hold on a second here, I never stated SCK was a viable alternative with Spirit stacking, I stated that we would simply be forced into stacking more spirit to continue using jab as a primary source. SCK is effective when it doesn't overheal, but in most situations SCK SCK Uplift would be too slow to effectively snipe during bursts. Ideally JAB JAB UPLIFT during max-RM uptime (within TFT timers) is the best way to go, whilst using slower healing outside of those periods if you are aiming at maximising our potential burst healing. I never stated that SCK was a viable alternative to jab jab uplift.

    Let's not get ahead of ourselves and say others stated something without being able to quote it directly. I never intentionally stated or hinted at SCK SCK Uplift being a viable alternative.
    Nobody quoted you for saying that you stated SCK SCK uplift would be a better alternative (except gnorrior :P) although when you stated that we would probably have to stack spirit to maintain a consistent use of jab, it also indirectly means we will be able to use SCK more often since it's HPM depending on the number of people with ReM might be lower than a jab jab uplift. Using values from a previous post with 13 ReMs running, no Ascension, 25% crit and the jab cost on PTR of 13500 an SCK 'rotation' would be 32.2 HPM and a jab rotation would be 36.2 HPM. As you can see by these values, a TfT reaching its 'climax' makes jab only slightly better HPM than SCK

    Obviously we then have the issue of SCK not providing the burst healing you would need that a jab jab uplift has but that's a different topic, this simply shows that in theory with some constant AoE damage SCK will seem more favourable, provided you have the time to heal this way.

  12. #212
    I posted this in the big class discussion thread that blizz is posting in, interested in some of your opinions in general.

    The issue here that you fail to mention though is you are throwing RNG ontop of RNG, and ultimately punishing the healer for being a Monk instead of any other healing class that only truly has to worry about Crit as a factor of RNG. RNG almost NEVER affects what spells a healer can cast, and when it does it is typically limited to their talents which is acceptable.RM placement and Ultimately Uplift healing (our ENTIRE Burst healing capabilities, since we can no longer Chi Burst in it's replacement) is one, but then to ultimately restrict our Uplift healing an additional time by introducing unnecessary RNG to the Chi generation is just a double whammy. Some RNG for healing is of course acceptable, but when everything comes down to "RNG" to be efficient, you are no longer the reliable, wanted healer in the raid. In fights where the damage isn't consistent we have zero control over if our Uplift will overheal or not, so the only real way to combat that is to simply do MORE of it, so those it does hit get healed, and the loss of overhealing is mitigated by the frequency of your burst. I've gone plenty of casts with SM where I get 1 or 2 chi over the entire channel, and then by the time I CAN do uplift it either doesn't matter, or most of it overheals because of the RM placement RNG.

    What I am asking for is to mitigate the loss. Monks are one of the most uncontrollable healers, and we lost a lot of additional control by the change to our t30 talents - albeit this change was necessary to "simplify" the rotation, as it became increasingly reliant apon a weak aura to track RM count so you could decide to Chi Burst or not to under/over a specific threshold. The T30 talent change alone removes a lot of our controllable, predictable healing, and throws us further into a class that we have no control over.

    Once you introduce the Jab changes to that extreme without an alternative, you suddenly become the least desired healer on the raiding roster. We need a consistent chi generation in ALL situations, not just SOME situations -- SCK fits the bill on fights like Garalon or other constant AE damage fights where there is little to no overhealing, but when SCK is a waste healing wise, it turns into being doubly useless - it takes longer than jab to generate chi, costs more, and would be wasted healing (even if you cancelaura it it still costs too much).

    Soothing Mists, while being uncontrollable, also can be quite annoying as it throws your camera every which way, or if you have the camera follow off it throws your character every which way depending on who you are shooting this off to, causing disorientation and potential issues when you have to move; throwing additional raid awareness in isn't always bad, but it is bad in this case.

    As of now, it seems like we are trying to find ways to break Jab Jab Uplift, without providing an alternative that makes sense both logically and mathematically. Again, the reason behind Jab Jab Uplift wasn't because of it's mana efficiency, we didn't care about mana efficiency in 5.0 -- it was all about it's reliability and predictability. We have control over our burst, even if we don't have control over it's placement we can at least control how much burst we do and when we do it.

    Break Jab Jab Uplift, that's fine -- but don't leave us high and dry without a viable alternative that makes us one of the least desirable healers purely based off of predictability and controllability. We need a solution that allows us to be solid AE healers, while also having some level of control over our burst healing.

    The goal should be to separate Mistweaving and Fistweaving, removing "zealweaving" as it has been called -- but the focus cannot be so narrow that it breaks zealweaving, but breaks the class in the process.

    As of now, you will have to increase the mana cost on Jab more and give more mana back (preferably with our new passive to prevent us from spamming TP as an efficient mana regeneration mechanic) to prevent us from simply stacking even more spirit (which is easier with 5.2 gearing) and using jab. If this trend is the direction we go in, you can expect to have to change something again in 5.3 as Jab will make it's re-appearance in a Jab-Jab-Uplift format.

    PLEASE consider an alternative guaranteed chi generation. Some RNG is fine, overburdening and punishing the healing class with RNG ontop of RNG shouldn't be a viable direction. RNG is fine, but not when it's stacked ontop of each other. Reliability predictability and consistency will trump "maybe" any day of the week. We aren't talking about "lets bring a disc because they absorb things and have more utility!" we're talking about "your RNG can literally cause a wipe because you didn't do X amount of burst healing in the last 5 seconds".

  13. #213
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    Word on the street is that Tiger Palm is no longer refunding mana in the latest patch.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Affiniti View Post
    PLEASE consider an alternative guaranteed chi generation. Some RNG is fine, overburdening and punishing the healing class with RNG ontop of RNG shouldn't be a viable direction. RNG is fine, but not when it's stacked ontop of each other. Reliability predictability and consistency will trump "maybe" any day of the week. We aren't talking about "lets bring a disc because they absorb things and have more utility!" we're talking about "your RNG can literally cause a wipe because you didn't do X amount of burst healing in the last 5 seconds".
    In my opinion you addressed well the issue at hand, and these jab mana nerfs seem like a short term solution since in the long run we'll be back to jabbing consistently with high amounts of spirit because it's what we prefer, having stable chi generation. It's not effective or pleasant to have RNG on a resource generating mechanic such as soothing mist, and having to depend on it since it's our 'efficient' way of getting it.

    However, this last paragraph struck me because I think a more detrimental change for patch 5.2 doesn't lie with the jab nerf or our increasing difficulty to generate chi at a constant rate, but another that you mentioned; the t30 changes. Our dependency on ReM is already enough RNG as it stands for a healer, but making us even more dependent on it since chi burst won't be an option to spend chi just sucks, both because it's an interesting way of healing and because it makes those 2 chi we spend seem more useful at times then having to use it on uplift.

    I really enjoy the ReM and uplift mechanic, but if it's already RNG enough as it stands on live, the 5.2 changes might prove to make us fairly inconsistent healers. Therefore, if anything, I think ReM should be looked at in general. If we're going to depend on it even more with our limited chi spending options in 5.2, at least let us have more control on its placement. Having to cast it on CD to 'make sure our healing will be sufficient' when needed isn't a well designed mechanic IMO. I've seen this suggestion several times before but perhaps ReM could work just like it does on live, except that it could accumulate up to 3 charges. Note that this would make our burst healing a lot more consistent, it would reduce some of our ridiculous overhealing for having to cast ReM on CD. The only problem with this would be the GCDs used to cast upto 3 charges of ReM when burst healing is needed, plus the time taken for the HoT to jump to other players.

    Then again, my question is do all healers need to have exceptional burst healing? I understand that not having complete control over it is frustrating and perhaps not a good design, but if we did have this control I think our potential throughput would simply destroy others and this isn't fair as well. There has to be a line somewhere in between, but as you emphasize on your post RNG isn't the correct solution, for anything in all honesty.

  15. #215
    I can't understand how they changed judgements of the pure to a 60 second buff from 4.2 to 4.3 because using a global every 8 seconds to maintain healing was unacceptable, but now they've went and recreated the problem all over again in a different class.
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  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by zonde View Post
    In my opinion you addressed well the issue at hand, and these jab mana nerfs seem like a short term solution since in the long run we'll be back to jabbing consistently with high amounts of spirit because it's what we prefer, having stable chi generation. It's not effective or pleasant to have RNG on a resource generating mechanic such as soothing mist, and having to depend on it since it's our 'efficient' way of getting it.

    However, this last paragraph struck me because I think a more detrimental change for patch 5.2 doesn't lie with the jab nerf or our increasing difficulty to generate chi at a constant rate, but another that you mentioned; the t30 changes. Our dependency on ReM is already enough RNG as it stands for a healer, but making us even more dependent on it since chi burst won't be an option to spend chi just sucks, both because it's an interesting way of healing and because it makes those 2 chi we spend seem more useful at times then having to use it on uplift.

    I really enjoy the ReM and uplift mechanic, but if it's already RNG enough as it stands on live, the 5.2 changes might prove to make us fairly inconsistent healers. Therefore, if anything, I think ReM should be looked at in general. If we're going to depend on it even more with our limited chi spending options in 5.2, at least let us have more control on its placement. Having to cast it on CD to 'make sure our healing will be sufficient' when needed isn't a well designed mechanic IMO. I've seen this suggestion several times before but perhaps ReM could work just like it does on live, except that it could accumulate up to 3 charges. Note that this would make our burst healing a lot more consistent, it would reduce some of our ridiculous overhealing for having to cast ReM on CD. The only problem with this would be the GCDs used to cast upto 3 charges of ReM when burst healing is needed, plus the time taken for the HoT to jump to other players.

    Then again, my question is do all healers need to have exceptional burst healing? I understand that not having complete control over it is frustrating and perhaps not a good design, but if we did have this control I think our potential throughput would simply destroy others and this isn't fair as well. There has to be a line somewhere in between, but as you emphasize on your post RNG isn't the correct solution, for anything in all honesty.
    What makes the t30 talents "interesting" to you and me is why they are changing it to begin with. The typical philosophy with blizzard is "If it require an addon to play effectively, we have to change it" -- to efficiently and effectively heal as a mistweaver you needed some external way to count the amount of RM's active, and show the shortest remaining time, because it's too much information to try and process while working on other aspects of gameplay (for the average gamer) -- and you are looking at hitting a threshold with the T30 talents where you justify dumping Chi into Chi Burst instead of Uplift. While I find this playstyle fun and overall enjoyable, Blizzard realizes it requires a lot of work and/or addons to play effectively, and that isn't what the goal is.

    I'm still at a loss on 5.2 for chi some times. When you know Uplift isn't going to do much, you either dps or just sit there and do nothing, which is very foreign to the whole playstyle.

    The only true way to win on both sides is to make RM work more with the charge cooldown system similar to Roll, so you have control over when they go out, can do it in a more bursty fashion, and have somehwat more control over it. with less ramp up time. Obviously having choice with t30 vs Uplift vs fistweaving is fun, but it unintentionally adds a layer of complexity the class doesn't truthfully need.

    I focused more on Jab being the primary issue because we need some stability in our chi generation. We recovered from the 5.1 nerfs with more and more gearing, but now they are reversing those gear benefits rather than actually attempting to fix the class as a whole.

    The Mistweaver spec as a whole has many issues, but I feel Jab and/or Chi generation is a more pressing matter at the present moment.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Affiniti View Post
    What makes the t30 talents "interesting" to you and me is why they are changing it to begin with. The typical philosophy with blizzard is "If it require an addon to play effectively, we have to change it" -- to efficiently and effectively heal as a mistweaver you needed some external way to count the amount of RM's active, and show the shortest remaining time, because it's too much information to try and process while working on other aspects of gameplay (for the average gamer) -- and you are looking at hitting a threshold with the T30 talents where you justify dumping Chi into Chi Burst instead of Uplift. While I find this playstyle fun and overall enjoyable, Blizzard realizes it requires a lot of work and/or addons to play effectively, and that isn't what the goal is.
    Yeah, that's the whole problem with the T30 changes, Chi Burst fills a vital spot in our healing toolkit and it's being ripped away with no thought to what that does to the rest of the kit. Then again, with the extreme lack of explanation of the Mistweaver changes (apart from Fistweaving specific ones), I have no idea what they're thinking by changing what I find to be a very fun spec to be... well... less fun.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    That's it though, "full caster mode" isn't what I play this class for and it wasn't what the class was supposed to ever be, and in it's current implementation caster mode is just plain shit.
    so is that blizzard faults or your fault? blizzard ownz this game. if they don't want a fistweaver all the time they will change it. if you like it or not.
    if you don't find the playstyle fun anymore then just reroll a diffrent class.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Affiniti View Post
    I posted this in the big class discussion thread that blizz is posting in, interested in some of your opinions in general.
    Glad someone posted valuable feedback on US forum, issues are well addressed. I keep thinking that one way of removing one layer of RNG would be to make uplift a smart CoH-like spell no longer requiring ReM to be on the target. I never understood why my raid heal would have to only hit those who are already being taken care of by my HoT...

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Affiniti View Post
    I posted this in the big class discussion thread that blizz is posting in, interested in some of your opinions in general.
    I'm really glad you're posting this, because I feel the same way, and have posted similar thoughts on there.. but the more people that mention it (without spamming), and the more "credible" the source is, the more likely I feel it is that Blizzard will at least address the problem.

    I think that the class in general could use some major changes, with Renewing Mist functioning differently (more control would be nice), and some smoothing out on how it feels to cast Uplift and Renewing Mist while maintaining a Soothing Mist channel. (It breaks the flow of the spec somewhat to have to cancel Soothing Mist every 8 seconds for Renewing, 10 seconds for drinking Tea, and every time you want to Uplift), but for now, I can just hope that we have a consistent way to heal for 5.2.. the patch will be hitting soon, and I'm worried there isn't enough time for them to make the necessary changes so that breaking Jab doesn't also break Mistweavers.

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