imo our mastery should increae healing done via eminance (statue) and the healing done by the soothing mist from statue. Would make it good for both mist/fistweavng.
Further, I wasn't even talking specifically to you. I was talking with Firstly: the people who said that SCK wouldn't ever be used in 10m, and Second: my second paragraph was to Zonde who spoke about the best times for use being (what I interpreted as) after crushes, and I clarified what I thought was the best time.
And finally, I fail to see how in a thread about nerfing jab, talking about it's potential replacements is off topic. Affiniti made it pretty evident that stacking spirit and using SCK as a chi generator gave similar results to using jab earlier. So until they nerf SCK, I don't see this patch as being particularly bad for those MW like ourselves who are extremely well geared (esp. with increase in spirit brought by a new tier), though I do see it being a problem for those just starting.
On the topic of Mastery: Range increase seems minimal, all testing I participated in (which was only 10m, but still) showed it not moving positions relative to any other spells, nor gaining any significant magnitude comparing to before. So still an essentially worthless stat, at least on gear.
Last edited by Astraios; 2013-02-18 at 07:04 PM.
as for the mastery changes.......i felt no noticeable difference when i was doing the lfr. sometimes they would manage to burst with people near and other times they just sat there un used as normal. just seems like more of a bonus then an actual worth while change.
Last edited by todzilla85; 2013-02-18 at 07:19 PM.
Since MoP launched healing monks have been two strong, you had it coming.
I don't really trust what most people say on this forum because there's often no (correct) math behind it or no logs to show it. I spent 3 months trying to hammer in the factual differences between Chi Brew and Ascension and there are still people that cite some other number that has no factual basis behind it. I have a hard time believing the notion that sacrificing throughput stats so that we can just spam our highest HPS spells all the time is really gets superior results from playing more carefully, and until I start underperforming in my raid or compared to other Mistweavers in the world, or see some actual evidence to support it, I'm not going to adopt that. I will carefully listen to and analyze when higher levels players suggest something, maybe go look for my own evidence as to whether or not it holds true, but there's no one on this entire forum that I think is good enough to say "I'm 16/16 and I do X so you should to because that's the right way to do it because I said so" without at least something to back it up.
Also, I was just giving an example, because I find the most effective way to heal after a crush is snipe uplifting with a good TfT used some seconds before hand. :P
Let's not get ahead of ourselves and say others stated something without being able to quote it directly. I never intentionally stated or hinted at SCK SCK Uplift being a viable alternative.
Last edited by Affiniti; 2013-02-19 at 01:07 AM.
Obviously we then have the issue of SCK not providing the burst healing you would need that a jab jab uplift has but that's a different topic, this simply shows that in theory with some constant AoE damage SCK will seem more favourable, provided you have the time to heal this way.
I posted this in the big class discussion thread that blizz is posting in, interested in some of your opinions in general.
The issue here that you fail to mention though is you are throwing RNG ontop of RNG, and ultimately punishing the healer for being a Monk instead of any other healing class that only truly has to worry about Crit as a factor of RNG. RNG almost NEVER affects what spells a healer can cast, and when it does it is typically limited to their talents which is acceptable.RM placement and Ultimately Uplift healing (our ENTIRE Burst healing capabilities, since we can no longer Chi Burst in it's replacement) is one, but then to ultimately restrict our Uplift healing an additional time by introducing unnecessary RNG to the Chi generation is just a double whammy. Some RNG for healing is of course acceptable, but when everything comes down to "RNG" to be efficient, you are no longer the reliable, wanted healer in the raid. In fights where the damage isn't consistent we have zero control over if our Uplift will overheal or not, so the only real way to combat that is to simply do MORE of it, so those it does hit get healed, and the loss of overhealing is mitigated by the frequency of your burst. I've gone plenty of casts with SM where I get 1 or 2 chi over the entire channel, and then by the time I CAN do uplift it either doesn't matter, or most of it overheals because of the RM placement RNG.
What I am asking for is to mitigate the loss. Monks are one of the most uncontrollable healers, and we lost a lot of additional control by the change to our t30 talents - albeit this change was necessary to "simplify" the rotation, as it became increasingly reliant apon a weak aura to track RM count so you could decide to Chi Burst or not to under/over a specific threshold. The T30 talent change alone removes a lot of our controllable, predictable healing, and throws us further into a class that we have no control over.
Once you introduce the Jab changes to that extreme without an alternative, you suddenly become the least desired healer on the raiding roster. We need a consistent chi generation in ALL situations, not just SOME situations -- SCK fits the bill on fights like Garalon or other constant AE damage fights where there is little to no overhealing, but when SCK is a waste healing wise, it turns into being doubly useless - it takes longer than jab to generate chi, costs more, and would be wasted healing (even if you cancelaura it it still costs too much).
Soothing Mists, while being uncontrollable, also can be quite annoying as it throws your camera every which way, or if you have the camera follow off it throws your character every which way depending on who you are shooting this off to, causing disorientation and potential issues when you have to move; throwing additional raid awareness in isn't always bad, but it is bad in this case.
As of now, it seems like we are trying to find ways to break Jab Jab Uplift, without providing an alternative that makes sense both logically and mathematically. Again, the reason behind Jab Jab Uplift wasn't because of it's mana efficiency, we didn't care about mana efficiency in 5.0 -- it was all about it's reliability and predictability. We have control over our burst, even if we don't have control over it's placement we can at least control how much burst we do and when we do it.
Break Jab Jab Uplift, that's fine -- but don't leave us high and dry without a viable alternative that makes us one of the least desirable healers purely based off of predictability and controllability. We need a solution that allows us to be solid AE healers, while also having some level of control over our burst healing.
The goal should be to separate Mistweaving and Fistweaving, removing "zealweaving" as it has been called -- but the focus cannot be so narrow that it breaks zealweaving, but breaks the class in the process.
As of now, you will have to increase the mana cost on Jab more and give more mana back (preferably with our new passive to prevent us from spamming TP as an efficient mana regeneration mechanic) to prevent us from simply stacking even more spirit (which is easier with 5.2 gearing) and using jab. If this trend is the direction we go in, you can expect to have to change something again in 5.3 as Jab will make it's re-appearance in a Jab-Jab-Uplift format.
PLEASE consider an alternative guaranteed chi generation. Some RNG is fine, overburdening and punishing the healing class with RNG ontop of RNG shouldn't be a viable direction. RNG is fine, but not when it's stacked ontop of each other. Reliability predictability and consistency will trump "maybe" any day of the week. We aren't talking about "lets bring a disc because they absorb things and have more utility!" we're talking about "your RNG can literally cause a wipe because you didn't do X amount of burst healing in the last 5 seconds".
Word on the street is that Tiger Palm is no longer refunding mana in the latest patch.
However, this last paragraph struck me because I think a more detrimental change for patch 5.2 doesn't lie with the jab nerf or our increasing difficulty to generate chi at a constant rate, but another that you mentioned; the t30 changes. Our dependency on ReM is already enough RNG as it stands for a healer, but making us even more dependent on it since chi burst won't be an option to spend chi just sucks, both because it's an interesting way of healing and because it makes those 2 chi we spend seem more useful at times then having to use it on uplift.
I really enjoy the ReM and uplift mechanic, but if it's already RNG enough as it stands on live, the 5.2 changes might prove to make us fairly inconsistent healers. Therefore, if anything, I think ReM should be looked at in general. If we're going to depend on it even more with our limited chi spending options in 5.2, at least let us have more control on its placement. Having to cast it on CD to 'make sure our healing will be sufficient' when needed isn't a well designed mechanic IMO. I've seen this suggestion several times before but perhaps ReM could work just like it does on live, except that it could accumulate up to 3 charges. Note that this would make our burst healing a lot more consistent, it would reduce some of our ridiculous overhealing for having to cast ReM on CD. The only problem with this would be the GCDs used to cast upto 3 charges of ReM when burst healing is needed, plus the time taken for the HoT to jump to other players.
Then again, my question is do all healers need to have exceptional burst healing? I understand that not having complete control over it is frustrating and perhaps not a good design, but if we did have this control I think our potential throughput would simply destroy others and this isn't fair as well. There has to be a line somewhere in between, but as you emphasize on your post RNG isn't the correct solution, for anything in all honesty.
I can't understand how they changed judgements of the pure to a 60 second buff from 4.2 to 4.3 because using a global every 8 seconds to maintain healing was unacceptable, but now they've went and recreated the problem all over again in a different class.
old mistweaver probably still better than u
I'm still at a loss on 5.2 for chi some times. When you know Uplift isn't going to do much, you either dps or just sit there and do nothing, which is very foreign to the whole playstyle.
The only true way to win on both sides is to make RM work more with the charge cooldown system similar to Roll, so you have control over when they go out, can do it in a more bursty fashion, and have somehwat more control over it. with less ramp up time. Obviously having choice with t30 vs Uplift vs fistweaving is fun, but it unintentionally adds a layer of complexity the class doesn't truthfully need.
I focused more on Jab being the primary issue because we need some stability in our chi generation. We recovered from the 5.1 nerfs with more and more gearing, but now they are reversing those gear benefits rather than actually attempting to fix the class as a whole.
The Mistweaver spec as a whole has many issues, but I feel Jab and/or Chi generation is a more pressing matter at the present moment.
I think that the class in general could use some major changes, with Renewing Mist functioning differently (more control would be nice), and some smoothing out on how it feels to cast Uplift and Renewing Mist while maintaining a Soothing Mist channel. (It breaks the flow of the spec somewhat to have to cancel Soothing Mist every 8 seconds for Renewing, 10 seconds for drinking Tea, and every time you want to Uplift), but for now, I can just hope that we have a consistent way to heal for 5.2.. the patch will be hitting soon, and I'm worried there isn't enough time for them to make the necessary changes so that breaking Jab doesn't also break Mistweavers.