Jab Nerfed Again :D

[DirewolfX]

For major AOE aura damage that you describe, like Garalon or Empress, the timeframe is long enough that the RNG will not mean that you're overall low on Chi. You might get a few dry spells, but you and everyone else seem to be ignoring the times when SM will give you a Chi every time it ticks. For these kinds of healing situations, the average chi gen really is what you're getting, and the average chi gen from Soothing is by no means bad.

Player health pools are not large enough where this is true. A period of lucky burst healing from good RNG chi generation will mean lots of extra overheal. A period of bad chi generation will result in risking deaths as player health dips dangerously low.

[Affiniti]

Player health pools are not large enough where this is true. A period of lucky burst healing from good RNG chi generation will mean lots of extra overheal. A period of bad chi generation will result in risking deaths as player health dips dangerously low.

I couldn't agree more.

[Courierrawr]

This doesn't change anything for me, I completely dropped jab and fistweaving altogether when Jab got nerfed the first time, well except for Gara'jal but you get infinite mana there so yeah, anyway I've healed on all 16 bosses normal mode and 4/16 heroic and we haven't had a single wipe occur because of lack of healing, I'm not seeing all the things you guys are crying about. RNG? Yes it can fuck you over, but it's rare, I've never had a wipe occur because of it, in terms of healing meters I'm usually equal with our second healer who's a pally, sometimes I beat him, sometimes he beats me, it's just how it goes, we don't care that much about the meters, when we're three healing our disc priest usually destroys us both, but that's just how disc priests are right now.

You can't just mindlessly blow your chi, you have to use your brain and spend it when it's needed, the mana cost nerfs have made me a much better healer.

[DirewolfX]

This doesn't change anything for me, I completely dropped jab and fistweaving altogether when Jab got nerfed the first time, well except for Gara'jal but you get infinite mana there so yeah, anyway I've healed on all 16 bosses normal mode and 4/16 heroic and we haven't had a single wipe occur because of lack of healing, I'm not seeing all the things you guys are crying about. RNG? Yes it can fuck you over, but it's rare, I've never had a wipe occur because of it, in terms of healing meters I'm usually equal with our second healer who's a pally, sometimes I beat him, sometimes he beats me, it's just how it goes, we don't care that much about the meters, when we're three healing our disc priest usually destroys us both, but that's just how disc priests are right now.

You can't just mindlessly blow your chi, you have to use your brain and spend it when it's needed, the mana cost nerfs have made me a much better healer.

You say that like we don't know how to manage chi. Of course I don't blow through chi willy-nilly when health pools are high and spike damage is coming. How do you handle Heroic Garalon or Heroic Feng's fire phase, where the duration of the high raid damage exceeds your ability to pool and burn chi? I can burn through an entire bar of chi after Heroic Feng's Draw Flame with minimal overheal, and still have a lot of healing left to do. Having to wait for RNG Soothing Mist to give me chi back for another Chi Burst/Uplift could mean someone dies.

[WskyDK]

This doesn't change anything for me, I completely dropped jab and fistweaving altogether when Jab got nerfed the first time, well except for Gara'jal but you get infinite mana there so yeah, anyway I've healed on all 16 bosses normal mode and 4/16 heroic and we haven't had a single wipe occur because of lack of healing, I'm not seeing all the things you guys are crying about. RNG? Yes it can fuck you over, but it's rare, I've never had a wipe occur because of it, in terms of healing meters I'm usually equal with our second healer who's a pally, sometimes I beat him, sometimes he beats me, it's just how it goes, we don't care that much about the meters, when we're three healing our disc priest usually destroys us both, but that's just how disc priests are right now.

You can't just mindlessly blow your chi, you have to use your brain and spend it when it's needed, the mana cost nerfs have made me a much better healer.

First the bolded part: Just because it hasn't affected you in a negative manner, doesn't mean it's good design.

Second: dropping fistweaving is just about the worst way you could play at this point, even more so come 5.2
(as an aside I can't imagine how go d awfully boring it is to stand back and channel for 10 minutes.)

While I no longer main my monk as I switched servers to raid with a friend, this still distresses me as monk healing is probably the most fun I've had in any MMO in recent memory. The uniqueness of the class is slowly giving way to terrible design decisions.

[Redmage]

Oh will they just bite the bullet and drop the fistweaving concept? Its going to go that way eventually.

A.) its either going to be crap and no one will use it
B.) so situational as to be moot,
C.) or so good people will stack monks for the extra dps, resulting in a nerf going back to A

Just make monks regular healers and get it over with.

[Totaltotemic]

This doesn't change anything for me, I completely dropped jab and fistweaving altogether

I've healed on all 16 bosses normal mode and 4/16 heroic and we haven't had a single wipe occur because of lack of healing, I'm not seeing all the things you guys are crying about.

Maybe if you did bosses that actually deal damage (Heroic Garalon, Heroic Amber-Shaper, Heroic Empress, Heroic Lei Shi, Heroic Tsulong) you might see the value in trying to maximize what you're doing instead of doing whatever you feel like.

[Courierrawr]

You say that like we don't know how to manage chi. Of course I don't blow through chi willy-nilly when health pools are high and spike damage is coming. How do you handle Heroic Garalon or Heroic Feng's fire phase, where the duration of the high raid damage exceeds your ability to pool and burn chi? I can burn through an entire bar of chi after Heroic Feng's Draw Flame with minimal overheal, and still have a lot of healing left to do. Having to wait for RNG Soothing Mist to give me chi back for another Chi Burst/Uplift could mean someone dies.

Heroic Feng's fire phase? You mean the easiest phase right? We don't even have to do that much healing on that phase.. I never saw anyone drop below 70%..

The first and third phases we do is where all the healing is done, arcane velocity and epicenter (if we miss a stun) are a bitch, draw flame and siphoning shield phases are a joke.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 02:04 PM ----------

Second: dropping fistweaving is just about the worst way you could play at this point, even more so come 5.2
(as an aside I can't imagine how go d awfully boring it is to stand back and channel for 10 minutes.)

There's a lot more to it than channeling.. the only mistweaver spells I'm not using are jab, blackout kick, tiger palm, and SCK.

I don't see what's so exciting or unique about fistweaving anyway, you're literally just a watered down windwalker monk that heals for a pitiful amount when doing damage.

[WskyDK]

None of that changes the fact that it's shit design to have one of 3 ways to generate chi (4 if you want count SCK) be so heavily RNG dependent.
EH is 8 sec CD, So that leaves us with Jab and Soothing Mists. Jab is becoming ALMOST prohibitively expensive leaving us in the hands of the RNG gods for chi generation. This is shit design.

No one cares about your individual performance. the class has glaring design flaws, that are only exacerbated by the Devs lack of communication as to where they want the class to go, or how they want to get it there.

[Tatuin]

There's a lot more to it than channeling.. the only mistweaver spells I'm not using are jab, blackout kick, tiger palm, and SCK.

I don't see what's so exciting or unique about fistweaving anyway, you're literally just a watered down windwalker monk that heals for a pitiful amount when doing damage.

So you still need to channel "10min" for getting the chi you could get alot fast wiht jab.

And i think most of the ppl who plays a MW plays it for the "unique" playstyle, fistweaving. Why else play this class? you could easly just be any other healer in the game then.

[WskyDK]

There's a lot more to it than channeling.. the only mistweaver spells I'm not using are jab, blackout kick, tiger palm, and SCK.

I don't see what's so exciting or unique about fistweaving anyway, you're literally just a watered down windwalker monk that heals for a pitiful amount when doing damage.

It's hard to take you seriously when you refuse to use half the toolkit available to you.
Pitiful healing? You might want to go check WoL again. MW can do some absolutely amazing healing, while bringing (a bit) of DPS to the fight.

[DirewolfX]

Heroic Feng's fire phase? You mean the easiest phase right? We don't even have to do that much healing on that phase.. I never saw anyone drop below 70%..

The first and third phases we do is where all the healing is done, arcane velocity and epicenter (if we miss a stun) are a bitch, draw flame and siphoning shield phases are a joke.

Try it without a Disc priest (or in 25 man). It's by far the largest sustained period of high healing. Arcane Velocity gets a barrier and some big cooldowns thrown at it. By the time Epicenter rolls around (we do it last), everyone has their cooldowns up in case we miss two stuns in a row (first missed stun gets a barrier). You can't effectively cooldown Draw Flame as well as Arcane Velocity or Epicenter, because it spreads the high damage out over a longer period.

[Courierrawr]

So you still need to channel "10min" for getting the chi you could get alot fast wiht jab.

And i think most of the ppl who plays a MW plays it for the "unique" playstyle, fistweaving. Why else play this class? you could easly just be any other healer in the game then.

Yes I could get chi a lot faster, I would also run out of mana a lot faster as well, it's a huge trade off.

Fistweaving isn't the only unique thing about them, the closest thing to soothing mist is penance and that has a long cooldown, there's nothing comparable to things like uplift or the way renewing mists spreads, being able to instantly cast spells while channeling is unique for healers as well, we also have things like healing sphere and chi torpedo.

I like the way monk healing works in general, I used to fistweave every chance I got before jab got nerfed into the ground, with the 5.2 changes I may go back to using fistweaving.

[Luqt]

None of that changes the fact that it's shit design to have one of 3 ways to generate chi (4 if you want count SCK) be so heavily RNG dependent.
EH is 15 sec CD

fixed :P

I feel you guys are moving slightly away from the point of this thread. Some of you are frustrated by the lack of communication and continuous experimentation from blizzard's part with a class that was released 5 months ago and is probably the least played overall. That is perfectly understandable, but have you taken some time to consider the implications of the current PTR build?

On live, we tend to just Zealweave or DPSweave when there is no healing to be done, and we can say it is definitely considered mana negative but it is nevertheless sustainable. When we need to do some AoE throughput using uplift (cases where you are only using jab though), compared to other healers we actually don't spend more mana than when we DPSweave yet our throughput has a relatively high potential. Is it a good design for a healer to have a constant mana consumption regardless of the throughput that is needed? I don't think so, and other users have made this point in this thread. This is our situation in live.

If 5.2 goes as it stands, this "issue" will be fixed in a way that our DPSweaving will prove to be mana positive after a certain amount of spirit and crit, and jabs used for healing abilities such as uplift and enveloping mist (I don't think most of us jab to use Env mist anyway :P) will be more harsh on our mana, meaning it should average out to be the same as live. From 5.2, if you jab 24/7 to use the chi on uplift, you will oom fairly quickly, but doesn't any other healer suffer from the same effect if they use their AoE heals as much as possible? I don't think we have it that bad with the following patch, most of their decisions have some logic (except fucking T30 talent changes) and it will work to balance us as healers. That's my thought and you can flame me as much as you want lol

[DirewolfX]

If 5.2 goes as it stands, this "issue" will be fixed in a way that our DPSweaving will prove to be mana positive after a certain amount of spirit and crit, and jabs used for healing abilities such as uplift and enveloping mist (I don't think most of us jab to use Env mist anyway :P) will be more harsh on our mana, meaning it should average out to be the same as live. From 5.2, if you jab 24/7 to use the chi on uplift, you will oom fairly quickly, but doesn't any other healer suffer from the same effect if they use their AoE heals as much as possible? I don't think we have it that bad with the following patch, most of their decisions have some logic (except fucking T30 talent changes) and it will work to balance us as healers. That's my thought and you can flame me as much as you want lol

Yes, that will probably happen. My concern is basically the same as it's always been--RNG for Soothing Mist just does not produce a good healing style. Rotating between a mana positive/neutral fistweaving rotation and a heavy mana draining AoE rotation is fine. Any time we have to Soothing Mist (and can't jab) will be problematic, because we can't reliably heal without burning mana on Surging Mist. Get bad luck with Chi Generation and we need to Surging Mist too much and it kills our mana.

[Tatuin]

GC in blue post

By actual heals, I meant Spinning Crane Kick, Surging Mist or anything that grants chi, assuming you're using Renewing Mist on CD already.

Does he knows SKC heals for shit?

[Deleted]

They just have to put some stable and constant chi generation on soothing mist AND add another chi dumper ( like tier 30talent, or whatever they want ) to make MW viable.

If they really don't manage to balance FW and MW, well just fine, create 2 stances, one for each, problem solved

I can't really understand why The most Op healing class got tons of blue posts, changes, and lots of shining things everywhere when we don't have any real discution since, well the beta, about MW.

Reading GC post make us feel he never touched a Monk in raid

[Tatuin]

They just have to put some stable and constant chi generation on soothing mist AND add another chi dumper ( like tier 30talent, or whatever they want ) to make MW viable.

If they really don't manage to balance FW and MW, well just fine, create 2 stances, one for each, problem solved

I can't really understand why The most Op healing class got tons of blue posts, changes, and lots of shining things everywhere when we don't have any real discution since, well the beta, about MW.

Reading GC post make us feel he never touched a Monk in raid

Thats so true, you would think a brand new class would get abit more attention then this. Some sort of guidelines and not just 2we dont want you to use jab-jab-uplift"

[DirewolfX]

To be fair, they're getting tons of blue posts because blizz is nerfing the poop out of them...

[Deleted]

To be fair, they're getting tons of blue posts because blizz is nerfing the poop out of them...

Totally radical nerfs, I bet if they nerfed half of our heals by like 70% we'd get blue posts like that explaining those changes as well. Wait...