Who's more "evil" as of now: Orcs or the Forsaken?

[Aquamonkey]

1. The most Garithos did was call them harsh names, that's no excuse for murder even if he was a racist ass. (Now if Sylvanas had killed him because of what he did to Kael THAT would have been justified, but she just backstabbed him for the heck of it).

4. The point is Garithos was rude to sylvanas and got killed for it, that's -wrong-. If she'd killed him for what he did to Kael, or if she had evidence he was going to try to kill her, THEN that would've been a different story.

I'm not saying she was right to do so even if he deserved it.

2. Not if you're dead and rotting and up until recently were part of the force murdering everyone, that's a perfectly good reason to still be wary. People seem to expect the Alliance to open their arms to the forsaken and treat them like fluffy bunnies on their word alone.

They didn't care to make the distinction and based their suspicion on the actions of a separate group. Rescuing them and fighting against the Scourge should have earned the Forsaken some goodwill. Especially since these are their fallen comrades.

The Human-Forsaken relationship began with one side assuming the worst and having contempt the other side. This alliance was doomed from the start.

[Loaf Lord]

Would be interesting if blizzard made a CoT dungeon that was basically an alternate universe where Garithos hadn't died. I wondered what the Alliance would be like if he lived.

[Skytotem]

I'm not saying she was right to do so even if he deserved it.


They didn't care to make the distinction and based their suspicion on the actions of a separate group. Rescuing them and fighting against the Scourge should have earned the Forsaken some goodwill. Especially since these are their fallen comrades.

The Human-Forsaken relationship began with one side assuming the worst and having contempt the other side. This alliance was doomed from the start.

The relationship was not doomed until the Forsaken betrayed the Alliance and killed Garithos rather than fulfilling the bargain, the current conflict is by no means inevitable.

[Justignoreme]

Where the hell do they betray the humans?

read the 28923974 posts in this thread pertaining to it.

No, they got thrown into the prison because they were non-Humans.

Wrong

Accepting Naga-aid to survive the suicide missions they were sent on is just a nice excuse.

It's not an excuse. They actually worked with the Naga, why the bloody hell you think Vashj and Kael featured so prominently in BC as allies?

Garithos didn't imprison the Dwarves nor would he execute them.

Cause the Dwarves said "get stuffed ya tosser" when he sent them on suicide missions and triumphed by themselves, without needing to turn to Naga. Garithos treated Dwarves and Blood Elves equally as dirt. That aside: hating every last human for the actions of Garithos is okay?
Blood Elves should hate themselves since it was their noble and beloved prince who sold them out... Nah, they wanna stick it to the Quel'dorei for being right about trusting their gut and not trusting Kael.

[Aquamonkey]

I know right, you'd think that a drug dealer would just stop breaking the law and walk the straight and narrow because a cop responded to the scene and got him out of his apartment before it burned to the ground. Oh wait...

Garithos and his men aided the Scourge under mind control. They are still totally trustworthy.
Forsaken aided the Scourge under mind control. They are totally untrustworthy.

Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

It's not convoluted. You ignore the fact he treated Dwarves in the same manner. Dwarves aren't a bunch of butt-hurt addicts with ulterior motives like Kael and company so ofc they wouldn't blame all of humanity for garithos' actions, leave the Alliance and side with Naga or demons.

Garithos totally sent the Dwarfs on suicide missions... owait, no he didn't.

Gut feeling, his advisors sensed a betrayal and got out of dodge. You must be a "don't judge me you don't even know me type". You'd take BS hook line and sinker and end up a victim in the end. Hate to break it to you but people generally aren't so naive, though the self-esteem generation is far worse than prior ones. Tangent aside, they had reason not the trust them, like I said. It was a gut instinct telling them, this seems odd. They turned out to be right. Had the Forsaken said "okay, bugger off we're done here" and not killed them, then they'd be clear but they proved to be untrustworthy so once again, how was being suspicious of it wrong? lol

It wasn't a gut feeling or a premonition. It was "we hate undead".

Ya, one peon in the grand scheme of things, a self-appointed leader of a tattered remnant in an isolate part of a continent just ravaged by the Scourge is enough to make every Blood Elf hate and loathe and mistrust all of humanity and YOU are fine with it. But when it's the other way around, when Forsaken actually murder and betray, well the ones they killed had it coming, they should've just trusted them right? Would it have made a difference? Not a bloody chance...

Forsaken didn't murder or betray anyone until they attacked Lordaeron.

I read the lore and there's nothing hypocritical about it. Like I deduced already, you're a "don't judge me you don't even know me type". I'm more of a prove yourself to me type. Simply "rescuing" isn't good enough. Plenty of times bandits will "rescue" their quarry from certain death to rob them. Why rescue them? well said person was about to go over a cliff, with all that wealth. The Forsaken USED the Alliance under Garithos to their ends, just like the USE the Horde now. They would've killed them either way. Why? Because that's what they do...

So the Forsaken would kill the Horde anyway? Tell me how Sylvanas committing suicide after Arthas' death is part of her master plan to kill the Horde.

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 09:24 PM ----------

The relationship was not doomed until the Forsaken betrayed the Alliance and killed Garithos rather than fulfilling the bargain, the current conflict is by no means inevitable.

By doomed, I mean it's not conducive to a healthy relationship. Their alliance would have crumbled eventually even if Sylvanas didn't betray Garithos.

[Justignoreme]

Garithos and his men aided the Scourge under mind control. They are still totally trustworthy.
Forsaken aided the Scourge under mind control. They are totally untrustworthy.

Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

ya if you ignore the whole "Undead risen servants of the Lich king" vs. "enthralled by Dreadlords".

Garithos totally sent the Dwarfs on suicide missions... owait, no he didn't.

sure he did. In one case the Dwarves got lost and came back to camp, which pissed him off.

It wasn't a gut feeling or a premonition. It was "we hate undead"

No, it was a gut feeling. And you act as if the first thing out of the Forsakens mouths wasn't "we hate the living". Cause they do. All of them. Those that don't joined the Argent Crusade...

Forsaken didn't murder or betray anyone until they attacked Lordaeron.

really, back to square one with you

So the Forsaken would kill the Horde anyway? Tell me how Sylvanas committing suicide after Arthas' death is part of her master plan to kill the Horde.

Sylvanas is but one facet. Sylvanas never gave a flying fuck about the Forsaken; she used them as a vehicle for he vengeance. When she realised how useless she is after the Lich King was defeated she offered herself, saw what hell awaited her, a hell brought on by all the disgusting shit she did as the "Banshee Queen" and was given a second chance through her valkyr. She says now she has new purpose and her people have purpose as well. yes, they do, their purpose is to throw away their lives so she can avoid burning for an eternity. And she's got them so whipped up in it, by pretend it's about Lordaeron and not HER, they are willing to appease her... btw all of this changes nothing about the events in Wrath and prior...

[Slummish]

Orcs are brutal. The Forsaken are twisted. Only the demons are evil. I have yet to see a single demon that has sought salvation or shown an interest in serving the side of goodness.

[Skytotem]

Orcs are brutal. The Forsaken are twisted. Only the demons are evil. I have yet to see a single demon that has sought salvation or shown an interest in serving the side of goodness.

There's a satyr in Ashenvale that rips out his heart to gain redemption and turn back into a night elf.

[Loaf Lord]

Demons are petty much the embodiment of evil.

[Justignoreme]

Orcs are brutal. The Forsaken are twisted. Only the demons are evil. I have yet to see a single demon that has sought salvation or shown an interest in serving the side of goodness.

Go to Ashenvale as Alliance, witness a Satyr rip out his demonic heart to help save a sick Night Elf girl and receive salvation in the form of being restored to a Night elf by Elune.

[Loaf Lord]

There's a satyr in Ashenvale that rips out his heart to gain redemption and turn back into a night elf.

Are satyrs considered true demons?

[Aquamonkey]

read the 28923974 posts in this thread pertaining to it.

I think he means: Where do the Forsaken betray the Humans to warrant such distrust.

Wrong
It's not an excuse. They actually worked with the Naga, why the bloody hell you think Vashj and Kael featured so prominently in BC as allies?

Just ignore that Kael reluctantly accepted help from the Naga in the face of annihilation.

Cause the Dwarves said "get stuffed ya tosser" when he sent them on suicide missions and triumphed by themselves, without needing to turn to Naga. Garithos treated Dwarves and Blood Elves equally as dirt. That aside: hating every last human for the actions of Garithos is okay?

No, it's not okay. But it explains why they do.

Just like it's not okay for the humans to hate the Forsaken for the actions of the Scourge. It explains why, but it doesn't excuse it.

Blood Elves should hate themselves since it was their noble and beloved prince who sold them out... Nah, they wanna stick it to the Quel'dorei for being right about trusting their gut and not trusting Kael.

How exactly is allowing the Quel'dorei access to the restored sunwell sticking it to them?

[Justignoreme]

Are satyrs considered true demons?

Yes, they are demons in every sense. Just as we know other demons used to be something pure before they succumbed to fel corruption. Including Sargeras himself...

[Haven]

So basically, the Alliance was right not to trust them.

The Alliance was wrong to have Garithos in charge of... pretty much anything.

Alliance wasn't bigoted against them. They were suspicious. They had a reason to be. Forsaken proved their reasoning right.
I can't see how people fail to get this.

Yeah, saving one from being a mindslave of a dreadlord is definitely a suspicious, if not outright evil act.

[Loaf Lord]

What is the name of the satyr? I want to read up on him... sounds interesting.

[Justignoreme]

I think he means: Where do the Forsaken betray the Humans to warrant such distrust.

It's upon the FORSAKEN to prove themselves trustworthy, on account of their condition, on account of what they've been turned into, on account of why the hell should humans believe, without proof, that the Forsaken really are free of the Lich King and not just feigning? There's any number of reasons you can come up with, but you want to act like a risen corpse is no different from a living counterpart. Sorry they are. Forsaken knew it, humans knew it, aspects on either side went off the deepend. So what if the humans didn't want to take help from the Forsaken? That's justification to murder them? bloody hell think things through...

Just ignore that Kael reluctantly accepted help from the Naga in the face of annihilation.

Ya, his reluctance yielded a bond that would ultimately lead to Kil'jaeden almost returning to Azeroth...

No, it's not okay. But it explains why they do.

Just like it's not okay for the humans to hate the Forsaken for the actions of the Scourge. It explains why, but it doesn't excuse it.

Except the humans don't hate the Forsaken for the actions of the Scourge. They didn't attack the Forsaken, they wanted nothing to do with them. Tough break right? How do the Forsaken react? By betraying the few whom did agree to work with them.

How exactly is allowing the Quel'dorei access to the restored sunwell sticking it to them?

They can visit the Sunwell but are still not allowed to live in Quel'thalas, their home...

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 05:41 AM ----------

The Alliance was wrong to have Garithos in charge of... pretty much anything.

they didn't though, he appointed himself. PLease read up.

Yeah, saving one from being a mindslave of a dreadlord is definitely a suspicious, if not outright evil act.

And saying "thanks, c ya, we want nothing to do with you" equates to "We fucking HATE you undead all of you die(again)!"

[Aquamonkey]

sure he did. In one case the Dwarves got lost and came back to camp, which pissed him off.

Fine, I didn't know this.

Doesn't discount that the Blood Elves' only crime was surviving.

No, it was a gut feeling. And you act as if the first thing out of the Forsakens mouths wasn't "we hate the living". Cause they do. All of them. Those that don't joined the Argent Crusade...

Sure was when they tried to return home to their friends and family only to be chased away. http://www.wowpedia.org/Dan_Golthas

"When I clawed my way out of the grave, I thought my family would welcome me with open arms. Instead, they drove me out of the village, screaming in a language I could no longer understand."

really, back to square one with you

Because they didn't?

Sylvanas is but one facet. Sylvanas never gave a flying fuck about the Forsaken; she used them as a vehicle for he vengeance. When she realised how useless she is after the Lich King was defeated she offered herself, saw what hell awaited her, a hell brought on by all the disgusting shit she did as the "Banshee Queen" and was given a second chance through her valkyr. She says now she has new purpose and her people have purpose as well. yes, they do, their purpose is to throw away their lives so she can avoid burning for an eternity. And she's got them so whipped up in it, by pretend it's about Lordaeron and not HER, they are willing to appease her...

Without her, they would all be exterminated by an Alliance invasion.

btw all of this changes nothing about the events in Wrath and prior...

Everything she did was to kill Arthas. But you claim, she would betray everyone anyway once this task was complete. "They would've killed them either way. Why? Because that's what they do..." Tell me again how this is in any way accurate?

[Skytotem]

What is the name of the satyr? I want to read up on him... sounds interesting.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Avrus_Illwhisper

EDIT:

Heck there's also a Mo'arg in Shattrath that helps fight the legion, albeit grudgingly.

[Aquamonkey]

It's upon the FORSAKEN to prove themselves trustworthy, on account of their condition, on account of what they've been turned into, on account of why the hell should humans believe, without proof, that the Forsaken really are free of the Lich King and not just feigning? There's any number of reasons you can come up with, but you want to act like a risen corpse is no different from a living counterpart. Sorry they are. Forsaken knew it, humans knew it, aspects on either side went off the deepend. So what if the humans didn't want to take help from the Forsaken? That's justification to murder them? bloody hell think things through...

You do have a good point that they shouldn't have blindly trusted the Forsaken. The problem is that many Humans didn't even give them a chance to prove themselves and just assumed the worst. Despite the Forsaken saving their lives, fighting against the Scourge, and not being mindless zombies like the rest of the Scourge.

Ya, his reluctance yielded a bond that would ultimately lead to Kil'jaeden almost returning to Azeroth...

Only because Garithos betrayed them, leaving them with no other allies.

[StationaryHawk]

you cant say the forsaken arent evil. the whole "lordaeron was theres when they were alive" excuse doesnt cut it as soon as they started moving into hillsbrad arathi gilneas and alterac.

As old as this post is, I think it's worth pointing out that Hillsbrad, Arathi, Gilneas, and Alterac are all part of the continent of Lordaeron and former members of the Lordaeron Empire.

That said, I think that if it were a contest for who is the most "evil" (or, I suppose, immoral), the Forsaken would take the prize.