Guilds Falling Apart a Lot This Patch

[judgementofantonidas]

Pretty much this. Raiders have some real selfish tunnel vision, and it's only making less and less and less and less people raid, and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. In a few years, you're going to see people talking about "how to revive 10 man raiding", if this attitude keeps getting worse (and it HAS been getting worse ever since WOTLK, multitudes worse with each expansion.)

You have some very limited and highly repeated personal veiws about "raiders" in general. I really do not understand all the negativity you attach to players who seek to succeed at what they do while not imposing an undue amount of obstacles along the way namely in spending undue time bringing others up to their level. The game has many tools incorporated to assist players in completing any of the content they may encounter. In my experience the "raiders" that I associate with are extremely helpful people. They are always willing to coach another guild member that may be falling behind but we all understand that if we are holding the group back we will most likely be replaced by someone that doesn't at least for the space of time that it takes us to improve to the level needed to move forward. I personally never turn someone down that asks me a question conserning what the current paladin tank information is regardless of what guild they are from. I do not like to see a fellow pally tank fail. This does not mean however that I will incorporate an avoidance spec tank wearing gear that could have easily been replaced by grinding it out in a five man or purchasing with valor in my raid group. I put the required effort in to staying current at what I do and expect no less of those who wish to raid along side of me.

[Grocalis]

Fact is, people that actually "enjoy" raiding guilds are low. I have been in multiple guilds over the years, and out of all of them the "hardcore" raiding guild was always the most difficult to handle. The reason? A lot of it comes down to pressure. When you are in a guild like that you are "expected" to play a certain way, to get certain gear, to be at a certain level of damage/healing/mitigation. If you are not up to the levels required by the group, you are considered the weakest link, and either chewed out to get better in the weak areas or simply benched entirely.

When the choice for some comes down to either being the weakest link and being ridiculed for it, or spending longer hours reading guides to improve, the player is instead going to take option three, which is to just say "screw it" and concentrate on easier content like LFD/LFR. That is the "path of least resistance".

Before, to raid one HAD to be in those guilds. PuGing was more rare due to the logistics of the whole thing. Now a player can hit a button, enter the raid, get some decent upgrades (not cutting edge, but many players only care about getting upgrades, and don't care if they are cutting edge or not), and leave without a single raid leader chewing him out for dying. What did anyone expect to happen?

[Volbian]

On the extremely rare occasion that I choose to allow a pug player fill a roll in a guild raid they will be required to have already completed the fights in question for the simple reason that we are not looking to take a step backwards, spend all night hand holding, pass knowledge to another guild that cannot figure things out for themselves, or be wiped on content for us that is on farm status. We will not pug a player EVER for progression content that is not at equal or better progression than us. What does not make sense about this philosophy?

There's common sense in WoW? Holy crap!!!

I totally agree with you on this. Then the "bad players" complain on forums and call us "Elitest" because they dont see that they are the problem and arent willing to learn. If you dont have the time to learn how to play your class/spec. Why do you think you deserve to be pugged and carried just because you pay a sub?
Most guilds arent asking you to be a Top End raider, but learn a simple rotation, reforging, gemming, enchants, mechanics of fight.

People go into LFR and dont even realize the mechanics are the same as in Normal, but with more damage. Instead of they decide to AFK or pick their nose instead of paying attention.

Example: Amber Shaper ---People get put into suits and just stand there even run away from group because they think their explosion wont hit the raid. Read your tooltips and abilites of the buttons. Hit 1 to put debuff on Monstrosity. Interrupt his Explosion with the same button. Interrupt yourself with 2. Eat a pool if youre below 40 Will Power(This isnt Prof Putricide, where you to eat pools, right away), with 3. Hit 4 once youre 20% HP to get out of the suit(There are some people who are dpsing you down, because they know the fight). And for the love of GOD, stop being on boss, when Monstrosity is out!! He takes 99% damage reduction. Youre not even tickling his pickle, being on him.

[mink4i]

On my server pugging is a nightmare. All of the major long standing guilds have disbanded and there is only one 25m raid group left on my server and they are 18th place. most of the guilds in the top 20 have all fallen apart or no longer care to raid. It's a nightmare to recruit and it's been that way for months and months. We started this tier needing a tank and a dps. It is the end of the tier and we still need a tank and a healer now. I have literally replaced 50% of my raid group from the start of the teir. There are only 5 of us that started out and we are all close friends. The rest are new recruits and people we've picked up and geared. We've gone through so many people its disgusting, our group was especially cannibalized over Christmas, which seems to be particularly difficult for a lot of groups.

I know my server is probably just dying and I need to transfer my guild somewhere else if I would like to continue raiding at the level I am accustomed to. Bu the prospect of transferring off of the server where I first started playing, where all of my characters and friends are--- is hard to stomach. Not to mention financially shitty as well. Recruiting college sucks because of their school and commitment issues when other more fun things abound IRL. Who wants to come farm content when they could go out drinking with friends or do whatever they do.

It's been an absolute struggle for me and my husband to maintain things and I've thought about giving up so many times-- i still am thinking about it. I know I won't since I've never given up on anything in my life and despite all the shit this game gives me from being a GM and the responsibilities that extend into my free time like a growing cancer. I'm thinking about offering to guild transfer soon to my guild mates. I'm not sure who in my raid group would come with me--- if I could even start fresh on another server. It's scary to fathom :-( So much work

I miss the times when filling in a spot if someone was missing for the night didnt take legit, 3 hours. I miss the time when people actually gave a shit about raiding and having good performance and being awesome. It's harder and harder to find fun, but awesome people and so far I've been pretty lucky. Who knows :-( Best of luck to everyone out there having problems!

[judgementofantonidas]

On my server pugging is a nightmare. All of the major long standing guilds have disbanded and there is only one 25m raid group left on my server and they are 18th place. most of the guilds in the top 20 have all fallen apart or no longer care to raid. It's a nightmare to recruit and it's been that way for months and months. We started this tier needing a tank and a dps. It is the end of the tier and we still need a tank and a healer now. I have literally replaced 50% of my raid group from the start of the teir. There are only 5 of us that started out and we are all close friends. The rest are new recruits and people we've picked up and geared. We've gone through so many people its disgusting, our group was especially cannibalized over Christmas, which seems to be particularly difficult for a lot of groups.

I know my server is probably just dying and I need to transfer my guild somewhere else if I would like to continue raiding at the level I am accustomed to. Bu the prospect of transferring off of the server where I first started playing, where all of my characters and friends are--- is hard to stomach. Not to mention financially shitty as well. Recruiting college sucks because of their school and commitment issues when other more fun things abound IRL. Who wants to come farm content when they could go out drinking with friends or do whatever they do.

It's been an absolute struggle for me and my husband to maintain things and I've thought about giving up so many times-- i still am thinking about it. I know I won't since I've never given up on anything in my life and despite all the shit this game gives me from being a GM and the responsibilities that extend into my free time like a growing cancer. I'm thinking about offering to guild transfer soon to my guild mates. I'm not sure who in my raid group would come with me--- if I could even start fresh on another server. It's scary to fathom :-( So much work

I miss the times when filling in a spot if someone was missing for the night didnt take legit, 3 hours. I miss the time when people actually gave a shit about raiding and having good performance and being awesome. It's harder and harder to find fun, but awesome people and so far I've been pretty lucky. Who knows :-( Best of luck to everyone out there having problems!

Don't give up. If you truly do care about performance and finding a raid group that shares your desire to raid drop me a line. We always have spots.

[Misuteri]

Raiding in general this expansion "feels" like it did in TBC to some extent. There is real progression and real work to be done to get everything cleared.

9-10 months of DS spoon feeding every End Time heroic geared players epics then nerfing DS week after week so everyone got it cleared made people forget what raiding was really like at one time. Work. Effort.

Now you can get raid gear from finishing faction reps, dailies and no one cares if you don't show up for LFR properly flasked, food buffed, reforged, spec'd or on time. A good friend of mine in the game called us "reluctant raiders" during Cata, I'm not raiding normals ATM. We're geared to do it, we know how to do it, we can do it well without being told where to stand, what to CC in earnest we are raid aware. All in all I'm content now to see the fights, see the raids and don't need to push them on heroic for epeen purposes.

Honestly I have more fun now on my side projects, 80 twink, profession maxing, old raid transmog runs etc. than I do on traditional raiding end game content. I don't know how big a segment of the ex-raider population I am but I'm sure I'm part of the problem/reason. At this point I'm happier with alts that can do LFR through the end than one main "real" raid geared.

[judgementofantonidas]

Raiding in general this expansion "feels" like it did in TBC to some extent. There is real progression and real work to be done to get everything cleared.

9-10 months of DS spoon feeding every End Time heroic geared players epics then nerfing DS week after week so everyone got it cleared made people forget what raiding was really like at one time. Work. Effort.

Now you can get raid gear from finishing faction reps, dailies and no one cares if you don't show up for LFR properly flasked, food buffed, reforged, spec'd or on time. A good friend of mine in the game called us "reluctant raiders" during Cata, I'm not raiding normals ATM. We're geared to do it, we know how to do it, we can do it well without being told where to stand, what to CC in earnest we are raid aware. All in all I'm content now to see the fights, see the raids and don't need to push them on heroic for epeen purposes.

Honestly I have more fun now on my side projects, 80 twink, profession maxing, old raid transmog runs etc. than I do on traditional raiding end game content. I don't know how big a segment of the ex-raider population I am but I'm sure I'm part of the problem/reason. At this point I'm happier with alts that can do LFR through the end than one main "real" raid geared.

We have often been approached by players looking for a pug spot that make the statment that they "know" all the fights. When asked if they have completed them the answer is always "no but I know them all". This makes absolutely no sense to me. If you have not completed the fight then you truly do not know it, you cannot say that you CAN complete it and you are generally a waste of resources being brought up to speed.

As far as Epeen. It certainly is not always Epeen that pushes players to strive for heroic kills. Pure and simple the heroic gear from last tier helps smooth the progression through the next.

[Deleted]

While this will always happen I agree that it is a big problem right now, at least as far as 25 man guilds are concerned. My own guild just went through this with us having to cancel around 3-4 raids within a two week period and it got down to the point that if 1 person didnt show we were not able to do it. We then got lucky with 3 old raiders who took a break from raiding coming back in one week and we also recruited 7 people from a guild dying then got spammed by apps.

Even guilds with better progress than ourselves that have been around since vanilla on our server are having problems.

I am talking purely about 25 man guilds and this is simply because thats all I have experience with. There just isnt incentive enough to raid 25 mans but with the changes next patch lets hope that changes

[judgementofantonidas]

While this will always happen I agree that it is a big problem right now, at least as far as 25 man guilds are concerned. My own guild just went through this with us having to cancel around 3-4 raids within a two week period and it got down to the point that if 1 person didnt show we were not able to do it. We then got lucky with 3 old raiders who took a break from raiding coming back in one week and we also recruited 7 people from a guild dying then got spammed by apps.

Even guilds with better progress than ourselves that have been around since vanilla on our server are having problems.

I am talking purely about 25 man guilds and this is simply because thats all I have experience with. There just isnt incentive enough to raid 25 mans but with the changes next patch lets hope that changes

Hard to believe that 25 man guilds are having so much trouble. Many ten man guilds on my server moved to the 25 man content merely for the easier content. Now blizz is thowing the magical RNG bone and I am sure players will leap at that as well. For me, I remain content with my smaller group of more highly skilled players enforced by the more challenging ten man perspective of one person wipes the raid.

[mink4i]

Thanks for the nice words <3 Even though it gets me pretty down and upset sometimes, the nature of raiding these past few months and the stress of keeping things together I still love this game I am always positive to other groups when a i run with another guild. It's so easy to see how other groups are struggling. And since i'm pretty good at this game i'D LIKE TO THINK I do my best to help out everyone I encounter. People tell me I'm so positive about this game when I encourage the leaders of these groups not to give up. I haven't either and I appreciate the support I really do!

I never wanted to be a GM. In fact, when my previous casual guild merged with the guild i run now I was only an officer, a new player with a modest talent. I was raiding in two groups and never wanted to lead. I loved healing but when the GM of my current guild fell apart he asked me if I'd like to be GM over our old previous GM. I hated it at first. So much work-- back when I had officers that cared and before I convinced my husband to play with me. Since then it's been a huge improvement-- my skill and the skill I expect from my other raiders has had us in the top 10 on our server since FL. Considering how new I was at the game I'm amazed at how much we've achieved under my command. I'm certain im not the best leader out there but I damn well give it my all. Yet my all doesn't seem enough at this point to keep things moving smoothly.

I think the general attitude of the game needs to improve. The people that play are really cruel and unkind to new players. I was lucky. When I started playing in wrath the best guild on the server's gm helped me out-- gave me tips-- kept me going! I was a nobody and he helped me. I try to do the same-- others should to. This is a massive multiplayer online rpg. The MM part of it is what is important. The community which blizzard constantly says they have no control over--- needs to improve. Nobody wants to play with bads, or help them improve. I WAS A BAD ONCE TOO-- it took some really wonderful people to make me the player I am today. We should see more people like that-- :-(

And he is right--- DON'T GIVE UP!

[Dvaldin]

I think Q2 and Q3 should reflect how well this expansion holds up. There's no annual pass this time, but I'm betting 5.2 is targeted for a release far enough away from the end of Q2 so people don't get sick of it too quick. That's what I'd do anyway.

Of course, even if the game loses 5 million subscribers, we're still going to hear the "4.6 million subscriptions is not failing" argument. Makes me wonder how much loss it takes before anyone's willing to admit that there just might be a problem.

The final raid to bash Garrosh should bring a lot of people back, though.

[Saphyron]

Are there fewer active guilds now compared to at the beginning of the expansion or compared to by the end of Cataclysm? If it's the former it's really just the way of the game, if the later, it's a serious problem.



The first tier of an expansion always have more people quitting as a lot come back to see the new stuff without the intend of staying the long haul, intensionally or not.

at end of DS there were 13k active raiding guilds (including those who killed Deathwing HC)

currently there is:

WoW Guild Stats
Active Guilds	262285
T14 Ranked Guilds	47640
T14 Raiding Guilds	30647

taken from guildox.

[Crashdummy]

and yet, even with all that pretty circles people still fail to beat him. Says a lot about playerbase.

Actually, it says a lot about the devs. It says how little in touch with reality they are, and how little they know about their playerbase, designing their game to a level of a playerbase they dont have.

[judgementofantonidas]

at end of DS there were 13k active raiding guilds (including those who killed Deathwing HC)

currently there is:

WoW Guild Stats
Active Guilds	262285
T14 Ranked Guilds	47640
T14 Raiding Guilds	30647

taken from guildox.

so you are stating that from dragonsoul to now we have dropped from 13k active raiding guilds UP TO 262k active raiding guilds with roughly 70k completing some form of relavant content?

[Otimus]

You have some very limited and highly repeated personal veiws about "raiders" in general. I really do not understand all the negativity you attach to players who seek to succeed at what they do while not imposing an undue amount of obstacles along the way namely in spending undue time bringing others up to their level. The game has many tools incorporated to assist players in completing any of the content they may encounter. In my experience the "raiders" that I associate with are extremely helpful people. They are always willing to coach another guild member that may be falling behind but we all understand that if we are holding the group back we will most likely be replaced by someone that doesn't at least for the space of time that it takes us to improve to the level needed to move forward. I personally never turn someone down that asks me a question conserning what the current paladin tank information is regardless of what guild they are from. I do not like to see a fellow pally tank fail. This does not mean however that I will incorporate an avoidance spec tank wearing gear that could have easily been replaced by grinding it out in a five man or purchasing with valor in my raid group. I put the required effort in to staying current at what I do and expect no less of those who wish to raid along side of me.

and that is exactly why raiders are a minority, a shrinking minority, at that!

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 06:36 PM ----------

Actually, it says a lot about the devs. It says how little in touch with reality they are, and how little they know about their playerbase, designing their game to a level of a playerbase they dont have.

Pretty much this. But no one will listen to this, because they live in their own little bubble where they just want to insult people and their content.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 06:37 PM ----------

Thanks for the nice words <3 Even though it gets me pretty down and upset sometimes, the nature of raiding these past few months and the stress of keeping things together I still love this game I am always positive to other groups when a i run with another guild. It's so easy to see how other groups are struggling. And since i'm pretty good at this game i'D LIKE TO THINK I do my best to help out everyone I encounter. People tell me I'm so positive about this game when I encourage the leaders of these groups not to give up. I haven't either and I appreciate the support I really do!

I never wanted to be a GM. In fact, when my previous casual guild merged with the guild i run now I was only an officer, a new player with a modest talent. I was raiding in two groups and never wanted to lead. I loved healing but when the GM of my current guild fell apart he asked me if I'd like to be GM over our old previous GM. I hated it at first. So much work-- back when I had officers that cared and before I convinced my husband to play with me. Since then it's been a huge improvement-- my skill and the skill I expect from my other raiders has had us in the top 10 on our server since FL. Considering how new I was at the game I'm amazed at how much we've achieved under my command. I'm certain im not the best leader out there but I damn well give it my all. Yet my all doesn't seem enough at this point to keep things moving smoothly.

I think the general attitude of the game needs to improve. The people that play are really cruel and unkind to new players. I was lucky. When I started playing in wrath the best guild on the server's gm helped me out-- gave me tips-- kept me going! I was a nobody and he helped me. I try to do the same-- others should to. This is a massive multiplayer online rpg. The MM part of it is what is important. The community which blizzard constantly says they have no control over--- needs to improve. Nobody wants to play with bads, or help them improve. I WAS A BAD ONCE TOO-- it took some really wonderful people to make me the player I am today. We should see more people like that-- :-(

And he is right--- DON'T GIVE UP!

The game is absolutely toxic to people who are new, that much is absolutely true. From the general attitude you generally see in all facets of the game, the general impression from most long standing players is that, seemingly, new people don't even exist.

[judgementofantonidas]

and that is exactly why raiders are a minority, a shrinking minority, at that!

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 06:36 PM ----------



Pretty much this. But no one will listen to this, because they live in their own little bubble where they just want to insult people and their content.

apperantly not. look up one post.

[Osmeric]

apperantly not. look up one post.

Many more guilds did DS than that figure. Guilds actively raiding at the very end of DS? Not sure why that's relevant.

EDIT: wowprogress.com lists 68K guilds that raided in DS. 13K might be the number that FINISHED H DS. Hardly the same thing!

Compare the number that finished H DS to the number that have finished H T14.

[Otimus]

apperantly not. look up one post.

Regardless, it is still a minority. Do you deny that?

[Deleted]

There is still room for growth and comunity.

There might be room for it, but there is no longer neccessity or incentive for it.

Back in vanilla and TBC, it was worth the time to teach people how to play a bit. Now? Not so much. Equally, back in vanilla and TBC it was worth the time to learn to play. Now? Not so much.

For instance this week I am taking off from doing any farm cotent with my guild group in order to get one of our secondary guild groups that has been struggling through MSV. I am taking myself to tank and one of my healers to their group for the week and we are going to show them how to complete as they have been beating their heads against some very simple things. I would not however take the time to do this for another guild. It defeats the purpose of guilding. If you cannot get ahead solo then join a guild. It need not even be a hard core raid guild. There are many social guilds out there that never complete a tier. They are content with themselves and more power to them. If you do want to raid then play with raiders. Pure and simple.

Hard to do when said raiders won't invite you, won't teach you and you can press a button and go to LFR anyway. No community, no incentive.

The only people currently improving are the people who would do it anyway due to personality. Game doesn't care.

Same is true for those who help others. Just those who would do it anyway are.

[Saphyron]

so you are stating that from dragonsoul to now we have dropped from 13k active raiding guilds UP TO 262k active raiding guilds with roughly 70k completing some form of relavant content?

You are not reading it correctly

In DS we had 13k active raiding guilds at the end including those who killed hc deathwing

what those numbers mean is that currently we have 262.285 active guild that have killed any kind of boss.
of those 282.285 47.640 has killed a boss in tier 14
and of those 47.640 there is currently 30.647 active raiding guilds including those who killed HC sha
Being a active raiding guild means you made a kill within a month.(if i remember correctly)

tl:dr

so far there is 135% more raiding guilds atm than there was at the end of DS which means even though raids is alot harder than DS more people is playing now.
Also since it does not count guilds that have not killed a boss within a month as active some guilds who have been strugling for more than a month on a boss may not be counted in even though they are active raiding.