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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by BLSTMASTER View Post
    You can still bang your head against the wall for the rest of the raid which has a solid 12 bosses in it . (solid as in amount of bosses)

    Not THAT big of a deal imo :/
    Yes, for the "normal" hardcore players there will be the usual brick wall bosses and Ra'den will be a completely hypothetical entity for many weeks.

    Without upgrades to provide a "soft nerf" to hard modes it could be many, many weeks.

  2. #382
    The intent of Ra-Den is to be insanely difficult. Most heroic guilds should not consider him a part of progression.
    Blue post from today. Few days ago we had a post saying how Lei-Shen is more challenging fight. Don't know what to expect now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
    The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
    Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.
    What the actual f...

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Blue post from today. Few days ago we had a post saying how Lei-Shen is more challenging fight. Don't know what to expect now.
    Heard it all before, both sinestra and algalon were easier then bosses some in their tier, dont expect this to be different.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Blue post from today. Few days ago we had a post saying how Lei-Shen is more challenging fight. Don't know what to expect now.
    They are implying it will be Algalon style - relatively simple mechanics with an enrage timer so tight you have to be a world first guild to get it down in the first few weeks.

    Algalon was much simpler than Yogg in terms of his mechanics but far more difficult in terms of tuning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Heard it all before, both sinestra and algalon were easier then bosses some in their tier, dont expect this to be different.
    Not true at all. Algalon and Sinestra are very different fights. Once you outgear Algalon his mechanics are trivial, Sinestra on the other hand was brutally difficult even if you vastly outgeared her. Sinestra was far and away the most difficult boss of T11. Two very different kinds of "optional heroic only boss".
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Not true at all. Algalon and Sinestra are very different fights. Once you outgear Algalon his mechanics are trivial, Sinestra on the other hand was brutally difficult even if you vastly outgeared her. Sinestra was far and away the most difficult boss of T11. Two very different kinds of "optional heroic only boss".
    Uh... Ascendant Council was way harder then sinestra, and you could not outgear algalon while it was current tier?

    edit: and Sinestra was a joke once you outgeared her because the essence of the red (or w/e that was called, pretty sure thats vaels buff lol) buff woudnt even drop off in the final phase.
    Last edited by Nuckels; 2013-02-25 at 01:02 AM.

  6. #386
    Maybe Ra-Den will be insanely difficult and H Lei Shen will be even MORE insanely difficult. Like OMGWTFQQBLIZZHOWCULDUCREATESUCHAMONSTROSITYOFABOSS.

    lol Just a thought there.

    I think the top guilds will adapt as appropriate and we'll see a Ra-den kill within the first 3 weeks of Heroic being open at the latest. Then guides and strats will trickle out with kill videos and the guilds that get to him later will be very careful with their pulls. Or it'll be bugged to hell and the attempt limit will be removed.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Uh... Ascendant Council was way harder then sinestra, and you could not outgear algalon while it was current tier?

    edit: and Sinestra was a joke once you outgeared her because the essence of the red (or w/e that was called, pretty sure thats vaels buff lol) buff woudnt even drop off in the final phase.
    Algalon was killed in 3 hours, even with all the bugs they had to face. I'm going to guess Sinestra was not. Sinestra was a significantly more complex fight than Algalon. They were most definitely very different optional bosses. Algalon was a fairly simple but tightly tuned extra boss with an interesting gimmick in the timer, Sinestra was essentially just the end-boss for heroic guilds.

  8. #388
    I like the 30 limit tries per week, Stops people raiding 7 days a week and doing however many tries a week they want, Now its more down to skill (and hoping RnG doesnt screw you over)
    Means people can do the 30 tries and take the rest of the week off, Stopping burn out for some people. Worked well with Lich King Heroic in my opinion, and its better system then Algalon, so glad to see something like this again

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Xevarc View Post
    I like the 30 limit tries per week, Stops people raiding 7 days a week and doing however many tries a week they want, Now its more down to skill (and hoping RnG doesnt screw you over)
    Means people can do the 30 tries and take the rest of the week off, Stopping burn out for some people. Worked well with Lich King Heroic in my opinion, and its better system then Algalon, so glad to see something like this again
    Why do people need blizzard to force them to stop progressing, surely most of us can decide for ourselfs how much we want to raid, self control?

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Why do people need blizzard to force them to stop progressing, surely most of us can decide for ourselfs how much we want to raid, self control?
    You can raid all you want to for as many attempts on Ra'Den as you want, as long as you don't mind progressing more alts through heroic modes. That sounds like enough to keep you busy. I mean it should be no trouble to go 11/12 HM on a few alts after one or maybe two lockouts, right?

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Secrecy View Post
    Algalon was killed in 3 hours, even with all the bugs they had to face. I'm going to guess Sinestra was not. Sinestra was a significantly more complex fight than Algalon. They were most definitely very different optional bosses. Algalon was a fairly simple but tightly tuned extra boss with an interesting gimmick in the timer, Sinestra was essentially just the end-boss for heroic guilds.
    But his point is still valid, Sinestra wasn't the hardest boss in the tier :P

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Why do people need blizzard to force them to stop progressing, surely most of us can decide for ourselfs how much we want to raid, self control?
    I tend to believe it has very little to do with "stopping our progression" and "self control" considering they aren't gating the content.

    Feels much more like they're just "leveling the playing field" - which mostly applies to giving non-5+night guilds a fighting chance to pickup some ranking on an extremely difficult boss (let's hope so!)

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Why do people need blizzard to force them to stop progressing, surely most of us can decide for ourselfs how much we want to raid, self control?
    Pick a sport. Any sport. Competition is leveled by imposing limits. Games last a set time and then whoever has scored more during that time wins. There aren't many (any?) sports where you just play as long as you want and if the other team has to leave or isn't in condition to keep playing, you win.

    Ra'den is like this - it's a test of skill, not endurance. Take two guilds, one which kills him in 78 attempts spread over 3 weeks, another than kills him in 308 attempts in one long week. Which guild is better? I think most woujld agree that the first guild is more skilled.

    Now let's say that the first guild can't raid as much as the second for some reason... in that case the second guild would get a world first even though I think most would agree that they're not as skilled as the guild that only took 78 tries to kill him. They 'win' not because they're better but because they can spend more time trying him.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-02-25 at 10:10 PM.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Pick a sport. Any sport. Competition is leveled by imposing limits. Games last a set time and then whoever has scored more during that time wins. There aren't many (any?) sports where you just play as long as you want and if the other team has to leave or isn't in condition to keep playing, you win.

    Ra'den is like this - it's a test of skill, not endurance. Take two guilds, one which kills him in 78 attempts spread over 3 weeks, another than kills him in 308 attempts in one long week. Which guild is better?
    There is no sport that can even be applied as an analogy to raiding, it's really not relevant. World first races are very specific to WoW and the rules and customs surrounding it are not directly comparable with anything else.

    One boss kill isn't enough to determine which guild is better, but if I had to pick, the guild that killed it first. The guild that puts in 300 attempts has probably done so before there is any information out as guilds who aren't interested in being secretive about their progress aren't even there yet. The guild killing it in week 3, even for Ra-den, will have access to hundreds of hours of streams and other information that has become readily available by that point.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    Side note, did Paragon really put in 500+ attempts on Heroic Rag? Like, really? That's just ridiculous. I'd argue it's as impressive as it is embarrassing.
    Just think of the other groups that took as many or more with better gear and different raid nerfs or raider buffs.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  16. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampfox2223 View Post
    Wrath had 2 of those bosses with limited attempts and they were both enjoyed by most of the community, I see no reason why the shouldn't introduce another one.
    Because you have to kill all the bosses on heroic within that reset first of all. In wrath it was on normal too.

    Most of the community will not "enjoy" this boss, it will be un-accesable by 95% of players.

  17. #397
    Somewhat off-topic, but weren't all the end-wing bosses in ICC under the "limited attempts" model? And the attempts were shared between all 4 (Putr, Lana, Saur, and LK)? Or maybe I'm just completely misremembering. . .

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Somewhat off-topic, but weren't all the end-wing bosses in ICC under the "limited attempts" model? And the attempts were shared between all 4 (Putr, Lana, Saur, and LK)? Or maybe I'm just completely misremembering. . .
    That didn't last long and it went up each week. They took it out about the time the stacking buff started. ICC was gating stacked on more gating of content. I hope to never do the first 4 bosses of that place again. Just a 30 minute time sink ever week to do the other stuff.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  19. #399
    Why do you cry about it? Blizz said only a small handful will see Ra-Den anyway.

    They will nerf it eventually after method/paragon have killed it.

  20. #400
    This is a mostly silly argument composed of a lot of needless worrying.

    The "500" attempt boss people are talking about has happened only a couple of times.
    Mu'ru
    Kil'jaeden
    Heroic Lich King
    Heroic Rag (for some guilds)



    Most "big" fights actually roll in the 150-180ish.
    Kael'thas
    Illidan
    Most of Sunwell
    Sinestra
    Yogg+0
    Spine of Deathwing


    These days your run of the mill Tier 14 fight on heroic went between 40-90 attempts on the outside. Pre-nerf Spirit Kings took a lot, but that was retardedly designed. Most guys did Heroic Sha 25 in 75-120. Tsulong took around 50-60.

    Point is, if it's 30 attempts per week... so what. Come more prepared. Cut down on experimentation. Go with safe bets and know what works. Don't have any pre-pull fuckups. If he is more "Algalon" than Yogg+0, then two things are going to come of it: (1) with 30 attempts per week, two weeks of attempts will be enough, and considering that one of those weeks will be the first week you kill Lei Shen for the first time, you get a free learning-week anyway. And (2) Lei Shen will hopefully be the point -motherload for the tier, just like Yogg+0 was, and Algalon will just be worth more than your average Heroic boss.

    Of course (2) is up to WoW Progress,and they often bone up shit like that, so we'll see.

    All in all, I think its much ado about nothing.

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