Do you miss Thrall's Horde?

[Tekkommo]

No, Thrall is shit.

I miss the old old Horde.

[Skytotem]

Out of curiosity, where is it established in lore that it was a counter attack and only meant to secure supply lines to Ashenvale? I haven't seen that mentioned in game, and a horde npc even mentions that Northwatch sprung its attack and push into Stonetalon before the Cataclysm.

The Horde NPC got retconned with Wolfheart where Garrosh attacked Ashenvale before the Alliance was in the Barrens.

[Deleted]

No, I don't. Thrall is a very boring character and his leadership was plagued with all sorts of problems; Ashenvale, Sylvanas losing control of her own city because he wasn't keeping his eye on her activities, the Blood Elves' hostility and power-seeking was left unchecked etc.

At least the pre-MoP (before they turned him into an comic book villain) Garrosh had a tight leash on Sylvanas after he discovered what she was doing. He had a code and some level of honour pre-Theramore. Killing his own generals when they went too far.

I think a leader in the middle is what's best. Thrall was too passive and ignorant of what everyone was up to, Garrosh towards the end of Cata (and now in MoP) is too much the other way.



When was Thrall ever concerned about what Sylvanas was doing?

[Florena]

The Horde NPC got retconned with Wolfheart where Garrosh attacked Ashenvale before the Alliance was in the Barrens.

Yes, but where in lore is it established that the southern barrens invasion is simply meant to build a supply road into Ashenvale? I haven't seen it. I'm not saying this isn't true, but I haven't found a source to confirm it.

[Aquamonkey]

At least the pre-MoP (before they turned him into an comic book villain) Garrosh had a tight leash on Sylvanas after he discovered what she was doing. He had a code and some level of honour pre-Theramore. Killing his own generals when they went too far.

He also, expressly forbade the use of Plague. He was perfectly fine with recklessly squandering Forsaken lives. At Theramore, he recklessly squandered the lives of his living troops too.

It's not clear if he assaulted the heavily fortified Graymane Wall because he was a stupid commander or if he just wanted to get the Forsaken killed.

[Khaza-R]

He also, expressly forbade the use of Plague. He was perfectly fine with recklessly squandering Forsaken lives. At Theramore, he recklessly squandered the lives of his living troops too.

It's not clear if he assaulted the heavily fortified Graymane Wall because he was a stupid commander or if he just wanted to get the Forsaken killed.

In all fairness, the quests he's talking about came before the creative team decided to 180 his character and wrote what they did in the later short stories. Its really the fault of a schizophrenic creative direction. And hence why his character seems so largely self-contradictory.

[Skytotem]

Yes, but where in lore is it established that the southern barrens invasion is simply meant to build a supply road into Ashenvale? I haven't seen it. I'm not saying this isn't true, but I haven't found a source to confirm it.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=24518

That and all the northwatch guys into Stonetalon trying to funnel supplies out of the barrens to the nelfs.

[Deleted]

I don't miss being carebears with the alliance.

I agree. Thrall is a cool guy and all, but it was boring storytelling. It doesn't really feel like Warcraft when both sides just want peace.
In that sense, Garrosh is the best thing to happen to the franchise in a long time. I really can't see it going back to Thrall and Jaina hugging eachother.

A more aggressive Thrall leading the Horde against the Alliance after Garrosh is defeated? sure. But doesn't that seem redundant? Why must Thrall become like Garrosh in order for things to continue? Might as well keep Garrosh around for that. To me it makes more sense to keep Garrosh around as commander, who pushes Thrall to be more aggressive, kinda like the thing Thrall and Grom had in Warcraft III.

Anyway, do I miss Thrall's Horde? No, it was quite boring.

[Thage]

I agree. Thrall is a cool guy and all, but it was boring storytelling. It doesn't really feel like Warcraft when both sides just want peace.
In that sense, Garrosh is the best thing to happen to the franchise in a long time. I really can't see it going back to Thrall and Jaina hugging eachother.

A more aggressive Thrall leading the Horde against the Alliance after Garrosh is defeated? sure. But doesn't that seem redundant? Why must Thrall become like Garrosh in order for things to continue? Might as well keep Garrosh around for that. To me it makes more sense to keep Garrosh around as commander, who pushes Thrall to be more aggressive, kinda like the thing Thrall and Grom had in Warcraft III.

Anyway, do I miss Thrall's Horde? No, it was quite boring.

You don't need sociopaths incapable of basic rational thought to have a war. Things could easily have continued into a full war with Thrall and MoP!Varian in charge by having hardliner elements on both factions forcing their hand and pushing the situation so far that diplomacy just can't work.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You don't need sociopaths incapable of basic rational thought to have a war. Things could easily have continued into a full war with Thrall and MoP!Varian in charge by having hardliner elements on both factions forcing their hand and pushing the situation so far that diplomacy just can't work.

Even then War is not always about the Alliance and Horde. Blizzard can come up with new threats outside of the Old Gods and Burning Legion for them to handle.

[Buu]

Battle for the Undercity was a cheap shot. That was 11/10 in awesomeness.

[Deleted]

Me'dan is the Warchief. Duh!

[Deleted]

In all fairness, the quests he's talking about came before the creative team decided to 180 his character and wrote what they did in the later short stories. Its really the fault of a schizophrenic creative direction. And hence why his character seems so largely self-contradictory.

This. They wrecked Garrosh and turned him into a moustachio'd cartoon villain. Up until the Theramore garbage he had a lot of interesting moments and depth.

With regards to the Greymane Wall, I have no doubt his intention was to thin Sylvanas' forces. I think that makes him much more "realistic" than the other races' relationship with the Undead. He knows full well how dangerous and twisted she is. Pitting her against an enemy that has arguably a much more superior fighting force (she is outsmarted several times in the Gilneas+Silverpine storyline, and even killed once by a turncoat with the story ending in a stalemate) is his way of dealing with her, without having it escalate into a civil war and distract the rest of his forces.

As I said, what the Horde needs is a happy medium; someone with honor and tact, and who isn't afraid to keep his own allies in check, especially since 2 of the Horde races are massively power hungry and will stop at nothing for more.

[HammerofJack]

Vaurok Saurfang for Warchief. A true orc imo.

Always was my favorite Horde character, just from the traits he has.

Never liked Thrall to much, but he's better than Garrosh.

[Thage]

especially since 2 of the Horde races are massively power hungry and will stop at nothing for more.

To be fair, the blood elves have largely tempered that aspect of their culture since The Burning Crusade, with the possible exception of the Reliquary. Their big thing right now is giving the Horde the bare minimum of aid and doing their best to keep to themselves, as the Thalassian elves always have.

[Scummer]

Yes, but where in lore is it established that the southern barrens invasion is simply meant to build a supply road into Ashenvale? I haven't seen it. I'm not saying this isn't true, but I haven't found a source to confirm it.

It was from a Q&A.

Q:
The Alliance army who invaded the Barrens wore the tabard of Theramore. Were they under Jaina Proudmoore's command? And their invasion happened way before the time of the incoming destruction of Theramore incident, so what's the reason behind their attack on Orgrimmar's territory? It seems the Alliance and the Horde were already in total war in Cataclysm.

A:
Because Garrosh wants to defeat the night elves and conquer the whole of Kalimdor under the banner of the Horde. So the humans of Theramore sent their army and tried to establish a military line between the night elf territory and Theramore. But it seems the result is not what they expected.

[Derah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs

That is all.

Any time thrall showed up we knew something awesome was gonna happen.

Every time Garrosh shows up, we know we're gonna get screwed over somehow.

[Deleted]

They even had the wisdom to recognize working alongside the alliance was better to tackle these threats then using it as a moment to try and wipe them out.

Yeah, in real life it would be a good thing. But for fiction it makes for a really boring story imo.

Yeah but people wanted some horde v alliance conflict and thrall was a huge carebear when it came to that.

So blizzard gives them horde v alliance conflict and now they bitch about Garrosh, go figure.

Yeah, it seems people don't know what they want. I think it's simply because people can't split real life and fiction. They judge Garrosh as if he was a real human being. And as such they blame him for racism and whatnot. Come on people, this is fiction! Grow up

[Trassk]

This. They wrecked Garrosh and turned him into a moustachio'd cartoon villain. Up until the Theramore garbage he had a lot of interesting moments and depth.

You do understand that this is just how they planned Garrosh from the start right? This wasn't an 11th hour choice, he was always going to end up this way.

In the interview with Christie Morgen, she revealed what the devs had spoken about, how Garrosh is a character with a weak core, someone who is easily malleable.

mal·le·a·ble
/ˈmalyəbəl/
Adjective
Easily influenced; pliable.
Easily influenced; pliable.

He has always been a character who uses bluster and bravado to convince people who's strong when in reality he's just a weak child at his core, still crying for external validation he never got from his father.

And the funny thing is, every person who has ever liked Garrosh for his bluster and bravado has never truly understood the character of Garrosh as his core, suggesting all Garrosh's fans are shallow without understanding deep character resolve.



---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 07:45 PM ----------

Yeah, in real life it would be a good thing. But for fiction it makes for a really boring story imo.

Well thats your opinion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah, in real life it would be a good thing. But for fiction it makes for a really boring story imo.

There's more to the story then a personal feud with the playable faction. It's not a boring story. Some people just think it's stupid just to start a war with both factions cause "WE WANT MORE WARCRAFT RAWR." That is what this war is about. It's all it has been.

Yeah, it seems people don't know what they want. I think it's simply because people can't split real life and fiction. They judge Garrosh as if he was a real human being. And as such they blame him for racism and whatnot. Come on people, this is fiction! Grow up

You can judge characters in game and in fiction as much as people want. It's part of literature and reading. So by your logic *Grow up*.