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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Did we ever determine if there were actual haste bps for # of Treant casts? And how/if we should be focusing on gearing around that in 5.3?
    From the testing I did on the current model of FoN, there isn't a hard and fast breakpoint due to their casting mechanics/etc. Sometimes they'll cast 1 fewer Wrath for what seems like a variety of reasons (lag, AI, not standing on solid ground, etc). Apparently this is improved in the next patch, so we may be able to nail this down more closely.

    For now, there are an overlapping series of bands at which they can cast a certain number of Wraths. I've not been on PTR to check how this has changed, some of the others in the thread might be able to shed some light on it.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Because then I'd need to do two updates instead of one. If I update now, it'll require fiddling for the haste breakpoint and checking for upgrades, or I can wait until 5.3 and do a full revision with 2/2 upgrades in mind. 5.3 also brings about more changes for single-target like the inclusion of FoN, so all the more reason to lump these updates together.

    Also, it's not the haste breakpoint that is what we're really focussing on, it's the additional benefit of haste itself and how it is vastly reduced after the GCD cap of 10296. Crit > haste is not a claim made without proof for T15, nor was it made without proof for T14. You're free to edit back in the limited functionality of multi-dotting in WrathCalcs, but it does show crit gain much more than haste when just two targets are considered. Even with 20% of SS procs being wasted, crit is still higher, so we've taken this as the best route. I apologise if this strategy has seemed steeped in an ungrounded basis, but I based that decision from numerous outcomes, including the WrathCalcs functionality I said earlier, T14 general consensus, and from the theorycrafting chats I had with a few other chickens. It's not something I just changed because I felt like it, and neither will I change it back on a whim either.

    Oh, and if you're so inclined to hit the GCD cap at this point already, I'm not saying it wont be disadvantageous. All I'm saying is this list will wait until 5.3 to adjust for the GCD cap.
    Ye I understand you waiting, it's a lot of work you put into this which I forgot about as I posted that, I'm not trying to take anything away from your efforts. I also think that for a 2-3 target multidot situation crit might beat haste. That situation seems to only present itself on 4/13 fights though. The other fights are either singletarget, AoE or 4+ multidots where I believe haste to beat crit (atleast till 10289).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingblaze View Post
    If you think haste is better then go for it. This topic isnt 'do this exact thing for best dps on every encounter in T15'
    I am going for it, this topic is for 'which set of gear is the best for T15' and when I think haste > crit I will mention it so that even if everyone that loves crit doesn't believe me, those that are actually looking at it with an open mind (not me probably) can read it and choose for themselves to decide what they think is best instead of only reading arguements of the majority which I believe to be wrong.

  3. #403
    T15 mostly has multi-target fights. So any set that is best for the entire tier is necessarily focused on multi-target.

  4. #404
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    Ye I understand you waiting, it's a lot of work you put into this which I forgot about as I posted that, I'm not trying to take anything away from your efforts. I also think that for a 2-3 target multidot situation crit might beat haste. That situation seems to only present itself on 4/13 fights though. The other fights are either singletarget, AoE or 4+ multidots where I believe haste to beat crit (atleast till 10289).
    Yeah don't worry, I took no offence. I like it when people bring up other points of view anyway, gives you reason to look through what they're thinking and try to see if there's any benefit. It's a great way, and probably the only way, to keep this list the best it can be.

    Also, I've got a general idea of what'll change for 5.3. If we slot in FoN as the default choice (switching to Incarnation for the heavy multidot/aoe fights), the value of UVLS drops slightly. Looks like Cha-Ye's/Breath is the best combo for trinkets, we'll swap in the Jadefire Drape (ilvl 600 legendary cloak), and the 10289 breakpoint (10296 GCD cap) will be easily attainable with double upgrades. Crit in the full BiS scenario for 5.3 is still at just above 17k rating. I've set the SS proc wastage coefficient to 0.2 for this comparison, but that may change depending on what's practical (I doubt it'll go below 0.2).

    As to when we would switch FoN for Incarnation - I don't have a clue. A lot of the fights this tier have >1 target, and FoN wont be as strong on those as Incarnation would. I don't want to just take a stab either, it's something we'll need to figure out sometime before 5.3. Along with that, but not as much of a disparity, will be damage mod fights. Incarnation would receive more of a stacking benefit with any fight including a damage modifier, whereas FoN doesn't receive a benefit from eclipse and the like. We'll have to see what we can come up with over the next couple of weeks.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-04-22 at 09:22 PM.

  5. #405
    Has there been a consensus as to specific fights in which UVLS performs better than other trinkets? or is it a case of "get a lucky proc and GG"
    As I managed to get my hands on it, was just curious as to what people thought

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Has there been a consensus as to specific fights in which UVLS performs better than other trinkets? or is it a case of "get a lucky proc and GG"
    As I managed to get my hands on it, was just curious as to what people thought
    It's really just luck-based - on average, it should be about equal with the other options, but they all multiply against more targets (well, UVLS up to 2 targets normally, 4 targets with CA running). If it happens to proc during a burst it should be awesome, but it has just as much of a chance to proc when nothing's running. I've been using it for a couple of weeks and sometimes the RNG is fantastic (ie. procs just as the second twin on Twin Consorts pops up during CA), and other times it's abysmal (ie. proccing as you're kiting a Jin'rokh orb to the side so you're out of range for the whole duration).

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    It's really just luck-based - on average, it should be about equal with the other options, but they all multiply against more targets (well, UVLS up to 2 targets normally, 4 targets with CA running). If it happens to proc during a burst it should be awesome, but it has just as much of a chance to proc when nothing's running. I've been using it for a couple of weeks and sometimes the RNG is fantastic (ie. procs just as the second twin on Twin Consorts pops up during CA), and other times it's abysmal (ie. proccing as you're kiting a Jin'rokh orb to the side so you're out of range for the whole duration).
    Yeah, RNG does give me the shaft alot so I will give it a whirl and see. Pairing it with Cha-Ye's. No meta as im stuck on 13 secrets, but should I use that INC+CA Opener incase of a UVLS proc?

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Yeah, RNG does give me the shaft alot so I will give it a whirl and see. Pairing it with Cha-Ye's. No meta as im stuck on 13 secrets, but should I use that INC+CA Opener incase of a UVLS proc?
    My assumption is that you start off with normal opener, pop CA when UVLS procs. i could be wrong tho

  9. #409
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    You absolutely have to use INC/CA on the pull if you have UVLS. Using the normal opener will cause you to waste massive chunks of Incarnation pushing to Solar and then using Wrath once you reach Solar.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Yeah, RNG does give me the shaft alot so I will give it a whirl and see. Pairing it with Cha-Ye's. No meta as im stuck on 13 secrets, but should I use that INC+CA Opener incase of a UVLS proc?
    Don't worry about the meta to much. I got 8 secrets this week, out of 15 total.

    They should have asked for 40 and doubled the drop chance, it's a bit ridiculous how random they are.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Don't worry about the meta to much. I got 8 secrets this week, out of 15 total.

    They should have asked for 40 and doubled the drop chance, it's a bit ridiculous how random they are.
    People in my guild have it, dk in my guild got 13 secrets in 2 resets, apparently, im calling bs because thats just plain rediculous as ive been on the quest since patch day and i have 13..

    With regards to the INC+CA on pull, Im assuming proc @ pull forcing me to use ca, which is counting chickens (heh see what i did there) I know but can always hope

  12. #412
    So is this new opener worth using without UVLS? Specifically with Cha Ye's (since as someone mentioned it typically falls off before CA) -- Also I'm still pretty confused as to what exactly the rotation with this new opener is (I fully understand it is optimized so that you get CA dots off during UVLS proc), when you say start at the end of solar you mean @ 100 solar going towards lunar or 0 solar going towards lunar?

    The main question I have: Is it worth using this opener without UVLS on fights where we multi dot really early (Council, Megaera, Twins) if you have Cha Ye's and 522 Valor trinket.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    People in my guild have it, dk in my guild got 13 secrets in 2 resets, apparently, im calling bs because thats just plain rediculous as ive been on the quest since patch day and i have 13..

    With regards to the INC+CA on pull, Im assuming proc @ pull forcing me to use ca, which is counting chickens (heh see what i did there) I know but can always hope
    Perfectly possible. By now, you could probably finish the entire quest in one week if you get lucky. As i said, way to random.

  14. #414
    I don't know how to answer your question zamn but I do have something similar in that now that I have the meta gem I'm finding that I have enough haste to pop incarnation, go from 100 lunar to 100 solar and still have enough time left on incarnation (almost exactly 15 seconds to match ca) to pop ca and then when both fade I'm on my way to lunar instead of solar. I also still have the valor haste proc trinket so you might not be able to do it without that (I have cha ye's and no luck on other trinkets) but it's something worth considering especially on a multi target fight where that faster 4th starfall may help out.

  15. #415
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    On FoN vs. Incarnation for single/multiple-target fights:

    Since WrathCalcs doesn't support multiple-target fights (at this time), I'm going to try some crude reasoning to establish at what point (if at all) we would switch to Incarnation once 5.3 hits. Essentially, this is sprung from the fact that FoN doesn't scale with multiple targets.

    Incarnation benefits from multiple targets in a limited way - while it's active, any eclipsed DoTs you put on any additional targets will hit 25% harder, and the second target will cause Starfall to do 25% more damage. This is obviously a DPS increase, and the theoretical maximum damage Incarnation would gain is 100% (per target). Therefore, the damage increase of Incarnation per target must lie between 0% and 100%. However, a good chunk of Incarnation damage is in the form of single-target abilities (Starsurge and Starfire), and as such will not be affected by any additional targets. Just as a guess, let's say you gain 50% benefit on the first additional target, and then 40% each after that. That'd leave us with:

    Damage increase vs. targets

    targets: 1 2 3 4 5
    % increase 0% 50% 90% 130% 170%

    The modelling for the actual damage of FoN in WrathCalcs is pretty accurate, and sits at 16,248 DPS. Incarnation, however, is 6,901 DPS. Finally, we can compare the two talents with this rough relationship.

    targets: 1 2 3 4 5
    Force of Nature 16,248 16,248 16,248 16,248 16,248
    Incarnation 6,901 10,351 13,111 15,872 18,632

    So we can see FoN is the clear winner for up to three targets, but beyond that either Incarnation is greater than or equal to it.

    Now, obviously this isn't very accurate, and doesn't account for a couple of things (single target of Incarnation being reduced as more targets are added, for one), but I think it's good enough for a preliminary comparison. Damage modifiers should just multiply against both talents equally - if you're standing in Jin'rokh's pool, then you'll get 40% more damage from Incarnation (6,901*1.4 DPS), or your trees will do 40% more damage (16,248*1.4 DPS), so there shouldn't be a discrepancy between the two talents for damage mods/stacking.

    tl;dr: FoN is good for 1-3 target fights, and Incarnation is better for 4+ targets. Note that the 4+ targets only need to be active while Incarnation is active. Incarnation should still be good on fights like Horridon/Council/Primordius/Tortos (maybe), and FoN would clearly be best on Jin'rokh/Megaera/Ji-Kun/Durumu (maybe not heroic)/Dark Animus/Iron Qon. The rest are a bit iffy.

    If anyone wants to point out some gross error I made, you're free to! I'm sure I made quite a few, or even some logical errors.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-04-24 at 02:04 AM.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Did we ever determine if there were actual haste bps for # of Treant casts? And how/if we should be focusing on gearing around that in 5.3?
    You could figure it out. Their cast time is the same as your Wrath cast time, so 15 sec/wrath cast time. You used to have to subtract one or two because of summon lag, but I think they've fixed that?

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  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Damage modifiers should just multiply against both talents equally - if you're standing in Jin'rokh's pool, then you'll get 40% more damage from Incarnation (6,901*1.4 DPS), or your trees will do 40% more damage (16,248*1.4 DPS), so there shouldn't be a discrepancy between the two talents for damage mods/stacking.
    The last time I looked at logs, I could see no good evidence that temporary pets were benefiting from jinrokh pools. This could have been fixed since then, it has been a few weeks.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meejum View Post
    The last time I looked at logs, I could see no good evidence that temporary pets were benefiting from jinrokh pools. This could have been fixed since then, it has been a few weeks.
    That could be true, and it might be changed in 5.3 with the changes to Treants. If so, there's just less of a reason to bring them out for damage mod fights - should still follow the same pattern as # of targets.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 01:38 PM ----------

    More 5.3 updates:

    - a slight DPS increase switching Passionfire Choker to Soul Prism of Lei Shen, and undoing the Mastery -> Spirit reforge on the ilvl 600 cloak. ~130 DPS, but it all adds up. Since the 5.3 reforges are currently centred around getting to the GCD cap of 10296, "stat weights" are now back to crit = haste = spirit on gear, so anything with those stats is superbly itemised. Anything with Mastery is still worth less, but haste = mastery after the 10296 GCD cap, so it's not that bad.
    - another slight DPS increase switching Durumu's Captive Eyeball to Ro'shak's Remembrance. A couple of things have to change around, including reapplying the Mastery -> Spirit reforge on the ilvl 600 cloak, and some gems. ~160 DPS from this change. This is mostly caused by a boost in crit.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-04-24 at 08:49 PM.

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Incarnation benefits from multiple targets in a limited way - while it's active, any eclipsed DoTs you put on any additional targets will hit 25% harder.
    Even though this has nothing to do with your point, I just want to clarify here that Incarnation will buff BOTH of your dots regardless of the eclipse you are in, you just wont have the extra bonus from Eclipse on top of that. Meaning casting Sunfire in Lunar Eclipse with Incarnation active will still hit 25% harder than it otherwise would have, but it will still be less damage than Moonfire because it won't stack the Eclipse damage bonus on top of that.

    As far as the rest of your post, most of your assumptions seem fairly reasonable, though I would think it would be fairly simple to math out the exact number that Incarnation gains from an additional target. The extra damage gained from the super buffed Moonfire plus the buffed Sunfire minus the damage of one Starfire (roughly the time of the 2 globals dotting). Then that difference plus two rounds of super buffed CA dots (apply at the beginning of CA then again before it falls, have to factor in that we likely are clipping a few seconds on the first round) minus the damage of one Starfire (Half of a Starfire lost for each set of CA dots applied). Then you simply add in the extra Starfall damage (member 3 casts worth here).

    This should theoretically give the gain from one target for Incarnation. Now the benefit will be slightly less as you increase the number of targets, because instead of using Starfires as the opportunity cost, more than likely you are giving up SS procs to apply additional dots to targets.

    Another thing Wrathcalcs fails to take into account is that FoN loses no damage from movement, whereas Incarnation is punished severely unless you have enough targets to keep shooting SS procs during the movment.

    Heroic fights I see myself using Incarnation in 5.3:
    - Horridon
    - Council
    - Tortos is a toss up. There will typically be 4 targets for you to dot with INC up (3 turtles and Tortos), but that fight just has so much constant movement. It can be difficult to get off any Starfires between Stalagmites and turtle dodging.
    - Durumu - INC/CA combo on the Ice Walls feels too strong, though Treants will increase our lackluster damage during the maze phase
    - Primordius
    - Dark Animus

    Iron Qon has a nice phase at the end where you can dot the 3 dogs and him which your cooldowns will be up for, but I'm guessing that since this only occurs for one Incarnation during the fight that FoN will be better.

    Also I'm curious as to how many Incarnations WC is set to (i.e. how long is the boss fight set to last?) As your guild gets more gear and you start getting off only 2 Incarnations as opposed to 3, that should have a large effect on the DPS gain as well, something that shouldn't really effect Treants.

  20. #420
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    Even though this has nothing to do with your point, I just want to clarify here that Incarnation will buff BOTH of your dots regardless of the eclipse you are in, you just wont have the extra bonus from Eclipse on top of that. Meaning casting Sunfire in Lunar Eclipse with Incarnation active will still hit 25% harder than it otherwise would have, but it will still be less damage than Moonfire because it won't stack the Eclipse damage bonus on top of that.

    As far as the rest of your post, most of your assumptions seem fairly reasonable, though I would think it would be fairly simple to math out the exact number that Incarnation gains from an additional target. The extra damage gained from the super buffed Moonfire plus the buffed Sunfire minus the damage of one Starfire (roughly the time of the 2 globals dotting). Then that difference plus two rounds of super buffed CA dots (apply at the beginning of CA then again before it falls, have to factor in that we likely are clipping a few seconds on the first round) minus the damage of one Starfire (Half of a Starfire lost for each set of CA dots applied). Then you simply add in the extra Starfall damage (member 3 casts worth here).

    This should theoretically give the gain from one target for Incarnation. Now the benefit will be slightly less as you increase the number of targets, because instead of using Starfires as the opportunity cost, more than likely you are giving up SS procs to apply additional dots to targets.

    Another thing Wrathcalcs fails to take into account is that FoN loses no damage from movement, whereas Incarnation is punished severely unless you have enough targets to keep shooting SS procs during the movment.

    Heroic fights I see myself using Incarnation in 5.3:
    - Horridon
    - Council
    - Tortos is a toss up. There will typically be 4 targets for you to dot with INC up (3 turtles and Tortos), but that fight just has so much constant movement. It can be difficult to get off any Starfires between Stalagmites and turtle dodging.
    - Durumu - INC/CA combo on the Ice Walls feels too strong, though Treants will increase our lackluster damage during the maze phase
    - Primordius
    - Dark Animus

    Iron Qon has a nice phase at the end where you can dot the 3 dogs and him which your cooldowns will be up for, but I'm guessing that since this only occurs for one Incarnation during the fight that FoN will be better.

    Also I'm curious as to how many Incarnations WC is set to (i.e. how long is the boss fight set to last?) As your guild gets more gear and you start getting off only 2 Incarnations as opposed to 3, that should have a large effect on the DPS gain as well, something that shouldn't really effect Treants.
    That's a good point about Incarnation buffing the uneclipsed DoT as well. It might be a negligible change to Incarnation's damage, but still important to note.

    It might at first seem simple to math out an additional target, but it becomes quite complex as you refine the process. The DoTs on any secondary targets wont be as powerful as your main target, since they wont have their duration extended by SS crits; additionally, you can't generalise to say a Starfire will be lost applying DoTs to the second target or a SS proc will be lost applying them to a third, as this isn't always going to be the case. Also, as the increase the amount of DoTs rolling at any one time, it means the single-target aspect of Incarnation shifts from Starfire to SS, meaning we have a completely new spell to balance out. Because there's many more layers than just the really concise ones, this is something more suited to a model like WrathCalcs where those relationships can be calculated, rather than estimated. I'm not sure if Hamlet's dropped the multi-target part of WrathCalcs for the time being, but I realise he's involved with more things than just boomkins (and WoW).

    Or maybe I'm overcomplicating the whole thing, and it really is just as simple as a concise trade-off. :p

    WrathCalcs is a steady state, so there's no real timer it's set to. Instead, it gives DPS numbers were you to perform the rotation indefinitely. Technically, it calculates the average damage of a single cycle, then adds in once every 180 seconds there's a cooldown burst phase.

    I agree with you on your Incarnation fight choosing - as I said earlier, the additional adds only need to be active when Incarnation is for the benefit to be seen, so that's probably a good standing point. I'll be interested to see if FoN doesn't benefit from area damage mods as well, since that'll vastly reduce its effectiveness on some fights.

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